I can't help but notice that most of the comments offered on individuals imges don't offer much constructive criticism. It seems that most of the comments consist of simply "nice shot" or something similar. Not that I think we should be giving "negative" comments, but it would be nice to see some more substance to our comments. What do you think?

(Sorry if this thread has been discussed earlier)

I wouldn't do that to anybody, I guess I need to spell out a few things... (SARCASM!) :-) Anyways, it seems for the most part that the more experienced the person is, the longer and more descriptive the comments get. People who have been with the site a while know what it is like, and they generally leave much more behind them. The intersting thing for me is that I get some comments from the pros congratulating me on my work for an image, and it isn't anything I planned out, it just happened that way. Here is an example. At least it helps me understand what would be nice for future images.

shameless plug alert! :-)

I dunno, pretty much all comments are welcome. I know sometimes ppl pick on Joost about his comments but you have to consider that he speaks bad english and cannot articulate the longer and more subjective comments. Also, he lets you know when he truly likes an image, look at his favorites its a very short list for such an older member. I dont like the idea of very quick and brief comments from users who dont leave many comments in the first place. But I dont mind it from some of the regular commentors. I feel if I dont get those comments from them then it lets me know I've done something wrong, hence they have their place and importants. Just some food for thought.

noobguy=professional devils advocate :p

I noticed recently that if you watch your images closely when they are first posted, you can noticed sometimes that people will comment on your images without voting. I could understand if someone were to vote without commenting, but to comment and not vote escapes me. Also noticed that sometimes people will vote without downloading, which I dont understand either but is less bothersome than my first concern. What do you think?

Would be much easier with a pass or fail I think!

It is certainly odd to have more votes than downloads

I never understood why someone would leave a comment without voting. Perhaps the comment panel should be greyed out or otherwise unavailable until a vote has been recorded. Another way would be to have a check control similar to the flood control check, that pops up and says something like “please vote before commenting”.

maybe there could also be a way to have the download set a short cookie to enable voting, that way it would ensure that no one votes on an image just by looking at a compressed preview. It would enforce a simple procedure to download and see the real image if you're going to vote, and vote if you're going to comment. I wouldn't mind being required to vote before leaving a comment, and I would certainly never vote without viewing the image full screen but it seems some people do. Note that this system still allows free downloading of any image without imposing the obligation to vote or comment. At least the voting portion of that is covered in the 5 downloads per vote requirement.

good call torque, I will post this suggestion on the dev site

Thanks Anthony. I think this would be particularly helpful in preventing new and unfamiliar members from developing the habit of voting without full viewing.

I don't think they should have to download an image to vote on it, if you implement that, you will find that you won't get the downloads or the votes, especially from people using dial-up.

well I sympathize with people on dial-up, but I would much rather no vote at all than a vote from someone who is attempting to judge a picture by just its preview. I think the preview is a far cry from the real deal for almost any image.

as I said, this didnt bother me as much as someone taking the time to comment, but not taking the time to vote, if they comment, they obviously have an opinion, and should express this in a vote.

I use dial-up and it doesn't take that long to view full-size. I do it all the time.

i have dial up also but more to the point i look at the small image and then if i like its concept or message i then view the full size image .. i think that is why we have so many nice comments ... if the small image dosen't appeal then you don't proceed
surely the point of posting images is to share with others the pride in what you have created and not to expect comments or votes ... whilst they are always appreciated i don't think that they should be expected
Russell

I do agree that votes and comments shouldnt be forced, I dont think anyone suggested that. I dont rate an image based on a thumbnail, but in some cases where the subject is very large, this is possible. But I definitly dont believe someone should comment on your work whether positive or negative, and not leave their input vote wise. It seems akward to me anyways, as it seems simpler to leave a vote and not write out a comment. But anyways, thats just my little two cent. (or three :-p)

"if the small image dosen't appeal then you don't proceed"

Exactly. I have said this before in several other discussions...

I partially agree with fantom and sam. When I am on high speed internet, if I have time enough to even click on a thumbnail in the first place, I always go ahead and view it full screen, just to try to see what the artist who posted it saw. However, when I am on dial-up, if the small image doesn't appeal then I don't proceed. That said, though, I would never then vote or comment on that image. Just because it doesn't appeal to me, does not mean I'm going to give it a bad vote for that. If I feel compelled to vote or comment on the image, then I will definitely take the time to view the whole thing. When I go out of town and am on dial-up for a week or something, there are many images that don't get a second look from me, just because it takes a bit of time to look at every single image the way I can on high speed. All I was saying is that I'd never vote on that image that I didn't bother to really look at because it didn't appeal to me :)

I definitely agree that an image has to be seen fullsize in order to vote or comment. This cuts both ways: a few times I have seen some pretty good looking thumbnails and when I've clicked to see it fullsize, it is slightly pixelated or blurred.

As for simply not proceeding if the thumbnail doesn't appeal, I have to confess that I am often guilty of this. However, in a perfect world, shouldn't we be viewing the images we don't find attractive in order to leave constructive criticism?

Sorry, playing devil's advocate a little...

Sometimes a person can judge an image based on a thumbnail, I dont do it myself but its possible. And it is a pain to download an image on dialup, I use dialup at home. Like I said b4, that didnt bother me as much as the comment without vote. Perhaps torques idea for the processing could only include having to vote b4 you comment, regardless of downloading.

well I think there's only about a 5% chance that an image could be judged from its thumbnail. 95% of the time, a thumbnail and even the larger preview is only going to show you what a photograph is of, sometimes I can't even tell that. With a computer generated image, the thumbnail will never have the same quality as the real mccoy. Sometimes the quality will appear better than the actual quality, sometimes worse, as Matthew said. Some people probably feel uncomfortable assigning a number to a picture, even though they have something to say about it. I can respect that, but just can't understand voting on a small and distorted view of something. I guess you and I have different ideas about which problem is more important, Anthony. I just thought the process I described above would keep either from occuring. I guess if people think members should be voting and commenting without viewing then I'm just not in the majority opinion about it. Not a big deal though, I really enjoy having a place to share my work when I have something I like.

I think it would be a good idea to modify the coding so that it is impossible to comment on an image without having voted. Is this too draconian?

Personally if i post something it mean that i like the photo and i post also the vote in clear (as 07/10).For what i don't like i only post the vote it's meaning under 6/10

CaptainHero: I doubt if that would be very popular. It is trying to enforce a certain level of investigation into each image. Where would we stop? Should you have to stare at the image for at least 10 seconds? a minute? SHould you have to have a degree in visual arts to vote? etc...

I see what you are saying. Laissez faire.

Well im only new in here and im trying different styles... I have never really done photography before or fractal abstracts.. i do paint but that is totally different... and i for one really appreciate any comments, advice or criticisms ... for me i take notice of advice and try it out... this way i can improve the standard of my work.. so far i have had fantastic support and encouragement from lots of people on here, and have made some good friends... and i truly appreciate all advice.... to me i would rather have someone say to me "J that is too blurry you need to do whatever... " so bring it on... lol

I definitely agree, Jacqueline. I want to hear how my images can be improved so that I can grow and learn.

Myself included, I have learned a lot from my friends here at Caedes, and am constantly being coached by some of my friends, you know who you are, lol. Much appreciated. As for critiquing, absolutely! I want to see what you see. Afterall I put these images up for you to enjoy, tell me how I can better them.
JuneBug

I wonder what would happen if i made the most hideous piece of "art" on the server and see if there is any negative feedback :)

I think what I've seen most often, is that "hideous pieces of art" tend to not get any comments at all. Maybe we don't want to hurt their feelings if we can't find any positive comments to put with the criticisms. But "hideous" is in the eye of the beholder, I guess :)

there is negative feedback all the time, lately the artists have stepped up their work and negative comments have been about small things. If you want a hideous comment, upload your hideous work and make sure to pm me, I'll help you with that :)

Perhaps we should have a 'Worst image of the month' or '6 worst new images' ;-)

(lol! they might all be mine, though!)

I bet I can fill at least 3

Whoops! (sorry just editing a duplicate post)

OO that would be fun --- opens mspaint ---

I think we should communicate a little more with the artist sometimes and ask him/her what they want to express...With that knowledge the viewer can give his/her opinion if she think that that message come through or not...
Let say i make a picture dark because i want to express some sorrow in a picture, If i then get a comment that it should be more light it will not be a constructive critic.
What instead could be a constructive thing would be to know if you need to point out something more or add something else on the image so the basic message become more clear for the viewer...A good idea in photography or music is to first find out WHAT we want to express and then try to integrate our work to that message..
TRACY is one of the Artist here that i feel work with that kind of tools, and to add emotion in his work then i think co2 Metals image is very touching and for me that is a very high quality by itself...
Constructive critics is fine, in my opinion it will be more constructive if we know more about what the Artist try to express, in case that is not obvious...( Landscapes, sunsets, flowers.. etc)
To use the comment part to point out things that we want the viewer to see on our images is also a tool to make the message behind the picture more clear...With that knowingness its also easier to give constructive critics in my opinion....Rock On!

Thats a good thought. But with all art, the artist has his motive an the viewer has interpretation. When you read a book, you interpret the imagery, the writer is not there to tell you exactly how its supposed to look. When you look at a painting, you interpret the meaning, Vangough (sp) is not here to tell you his exact motivations for his work. When you listen to a song or read a poem, you interpret the lyrics as you wish. It is the job of the artist to create, and the job of the viewer to interpret. If you do a good job, they will perhaps be one in the same :). Sometimes the viewer will not see what you see (probably most of the time). This is part of the craft.

I agree! But the subject where " Constructive Criticism" , for me meaning how it works on here on Caedes where we CAN comment and talk with each other, so its from that viewpoint i wrote my comment....I just want to point out that you can improve your ability to reach and effect other people with your Art as more awared you are with what tools you have to work with...In that meaning you can look at caedes as a training camp where we can learn a lot of different things to prepare us for the big world..lol

Considering the amount of members, and non member traffic from day to day, and the diversity of the crowd, I'd say caedes is a pretty good judge of how the "big world" would respond to your images, I suggest you upload your best hehe

I think so too! So i will keep pestered people with my images...hehe

*bump* :)

speaking of topic unsubscribing...

I still feel this is an important topic, and it was bumped for the benefit of Andrew. He made reference to the lack of depth in comments in the Spring Cleaning topic and wondered if it had been discussed.

I guess this is what you meant when you said that people should feel free to express their opinions.

I just now realized that constructive criticism probably can't work. I commended the effort on a users image and then gave, what I thought, was a brief, friendly comment on how the image would have scored higher. I received back a rather cold reception to my comments. Secondly, "Anonymous" just pm'ed me to, I'm assuming, mock me over my recent comments on the "Spring Cleaning" thread. So, I take back everything I said about the nead for constructive dialog and the desire for caedes.net to be a site for learning your craft better. Apparently I stand in the minority.

I feel awful that you were treated in this way. But I will happily stand in the minority with you regardless of others immature or mocking comments. I think you will find there are others that feel the same.

Hmmm... you shouldn't let an experience with just two individuals dissuade you from giving genuine feedback. Imagine if we quit everything we do just because one person said they didn't like it! I always give my honest opinion if I think an image can be improved (check the sig). Occasionally people don't agree with me but that's their right. In the majority of cases people appreciate it, as long as you are reasonably diplomatic.

Your sig has persuaded me to reform my opinion (must resist, must fight the evil thoughts, where is the Vulcan Mindmeld when you need it).

My frustration is born along by the lack of constructive comments (commendations and criticism) I have personally received and the less than welcome response when I make them. Of course there are exceptions kjh000 was very receptive, bless his heart. But I don't know who is who. Hence my comments on the "Spring Cleaning" thread and this thread. I don't mind people disagreeing with me. As you stated that is their right. What frustrates me is the (generally) personal nature of their responses. My comments are never meant as an assault on the subscriber, just a means for them to reflect on their own work. Or possibly look at others with a more critical eye. No one has to take my suggestions. They're just suggestions. I am not the arbiter of all that is right. But growth comes from reflection. I personally want to grow.

Amen to that :D

I agree with you ... dont let that experience stop you from giving constructive criticisim... i would rather have someone give a suggestion on how i could improve.. its an ongoing learning process no matter how long you have been doing art.... other people see things that you wouldnt see because they are looking outside the square..... as long as it doesnt take away from what you want your art to say..but if its to improve the quality... then suggestions are not a problem... I welcome any constructive criticism... that is how I learn and improve... then only time i have not tried anything that has been suggested to me was when someone suggested so many things that it would have completely changed the whole image and it would not have been what i was trying to say with the image....

So keep constructive criticism going.. after all nobody knows everything about art its a life long learning experience.... and on here there is a lot of talented people in all different types of art who can share their skills...

Its always better to know first what the artist wants to say before we suggest any changes on the image...To get comments when u upload a picture is totally ok, if u cant take that you shouldnt upload any images here..But if we want to give other people suggestion how to improve something we should first find out what the person wants to express with his/her picture, thats more constructive in my opinion...

I agree - I really like reading the artists thoughts expressed well as a sort of "side text" to the image (i.e. specific info about the location of a landscape photograph) and why it was chosen. Sometimes, though, an image is an aesthetic piece and an artist is curious to see the "naive" reaction to it without giving prompts. Sometimes the best constructive comments I have seen are questions that both raise new ideas and allow reflective responses from the artist.

Regardless of what the artist is trying to say, every viewer brings his own baggage, filters, expectations, and prejudices to the table. That is what the comments are for, expression of how it impacted you. For the good with such comments as commenting on the perspective, the focal point, the emotional impact, lighting, ect... and constructive pointers such as, on the perspective, the focal point, the focus, the theme, the emotional impact.

A comment is not/should not be to attack the individual but to impart some response to the creators effort, good or bad. In this way the artist can gauge the effect of his efforts and grow. This is not to say the creator needs to pander to the masses. It is up to him/her to decide if the comments merit consideration.

But all that said, I do agree we should first stop and try to discern the artists intent. This in turn may alter our perception.

i give contructive criticizm nearly everytime I comment on an image. and i've never had a negative response.

i totally agree on constructive critism. At the moment, I am a bit inexperienced though, so when I offer a constructive comment, i usually state if there is something that bothers me about the picture, mainly because i'm not too "techie" yet with my own images. I do appreciate it when the experienced memebers here let me know what could be improved with my images because it helps me become better and sometimes more artistic and skilled. I think that comments could be negative as long as they are not something like "you suck". Negative doesn't always have to mean bad.

This seems to be a "hot" subject! Maybe because people have different idea about what Art really is? Who know the one and only answer about what makes a picture better? Its a personal thing and thats why i think we should ask the artist first what he really try to achieve with his/her images..When we post our comments we give our personal reflections and its totally fine, and i guess thats what the artist wants too..
But before we attack the artist with a lot of suggestions how to change and how WE think his/her image could be better we have to be awared that it is just our personal reflections and might not be the same as what the artist wants to express...To find out more about what the artist want to express gives us a wider idea about how we could give constructive critics or help and is in my opinion to show more respect for another persons work..People have different kind of "rules" for what they think makes a picture good, its a very personal reflection and shouldnt be taken for a general law for other people...
People are different so therefore their Art will show the same individual touch..Thats what makes Art interesting and gives us a wide spectrum of expressions and impressions..
Just as in music we get new styles when people add something new in their art, when they break the "rules" when they just dont follow whats already have been done..
We cant get all people to like what we do, but we can can contribute with our own experiences and touch and thats what Art is for me....

Well said tommy.... next time i criticise your work i'll remember that.. hehehe kidding...

seriously though your right.. everyone is an individual and has their own style... and not everyone will like certain styles.. but thats life.. it would be pretty boring if everyone did the same thing... thats not art... art is an expression of that person... and it should be remembered when criticism is given....

for me personally,, i like the criticism.. makes me push that bit harder.... and gets me to try new ideas.....

Art is so subjective a thick skin is needed. Images I adore some people hate and vise versa. Thats ok with me. healthy critisism is a good thing..usually. When I look at someones work I always remember how long and hard this person worked on it even if it's not my cup of tea. Almost all the art pieces on this site have passion behind them and thats what I consider when I view an image.

the truth of the matter is, not everyone here wants constructive criticism. i have attended more than my share of art critiques and can crit with the best of them. i am very articulate in that realm. if a piece really moves me, i will say so. i may say why, or i may not say why. and there can be many, many reasons for that. i don't think that it should hinder my chances at downloading images here as long as i'm voting and viewing pics...BTW i often view them at full size and don't d/l them at all. but i WILL vote.
if someone invites constructive criticism, i'm happy to give it..but that doesn't happen often.
i thought this site was a place to share images for desktop wallpapers, not an unacredited online art institution! i know many users are into digital graphics and are trying to learn how to better their abilities, but most of the photographers either caught a good shot or they didn't. they can make a bad shot better through manipulation, but so what? if you think it needs improvement, change it yourself!

this is how i feel. just like constructive criticism, you can
take it or leave it.

another argument against the behavior of mandatory constructive criticism is this:
why just TODAY i got a PM from a user DEMANDING that i elaborate on a piece that i had left a nice comment on.
what's next?!?

the definition of downloading on this site is viewing an image in full size

"the definition of downloading on this site is viewing an image in full size "

ok...that makes absolutely no sense..but whatever. you haven't acknowledged my point, so why do i bother?

When you click on the thumbnail of the image and view the small sized image, this is logged as a "view". When you click on the image to view full size or one of the various available sizes. This is logged as a "download". Just so you know when you see Views and Downloads for an image. Maybe you already knew this but people have asked this b4. They wonder if they images doesnt get a "download" in its statistics unless they save it to their hard drive.

This was in response to your statement "BTW i often view them at full size and don't d/l them at all"

Maybe you didnt need clarification, but this may confuse other users who dont know any better. It needed to be clarified. I dont have a comment to the rest of your post, am I obligated to come up with one?

well the subject is constructive criticism..hehe

i know, just didnt want people to get confused hehe :-p

I think Cracky have a good point in what he say!

why, thank you, tommy. i'm glad someone here can admit to seeing my point!
i'm not trying to step on toes, just voicing my honest opinion.

honestly, I didnt see your point

seems as though you basically said you dont agree with forced contructive criticizm. in alot of words. no real arguments. I'd like to hear more of whats behind your opinion

the first line of my first post pretty much sums it up.
and then there's the part where i said there may be many different reasons why, (according to each individual.)
but i'm really not that bothered by whether or not anyone here understands or stands by my opinion, therefore, i feel no need to "argue" my opinion. that is why it is an opinion. right?
it is just nice to see that at least one person who participates in these discussions can agree with me on this site and have the nerve to say so.

that's nice.
or maybe nice isn't the word; and i should elaborate? ...hehe..;)

in that case, I agreed with you
I already stated my opinion on the importance of the "nice shot" post
read above, starts with:
"I dunno, pretty much all comments are welcome. I know sometimes ppl pick on Joost about his comments..."

I guess I have the nerve, no?

yes! but only you & tommy! :)

I agree with Cracky!

i disagree with everyone

Its like to discuss about musical taste...That is to bang your head on the wall until you bleed...Art is not Science even if there is technical rules about how a camera works and so on... But! There is a freedom as an Artist to use this rules in a way that suits him and that should be respected, you dont have to like it but you should respect it in my opinion.
There is no Answers for how Art should be, its just another way to communicate and express our personality...Feedback is of course what an artist wants..but to say to a heavy metal musician that he should play a little more Jazzy on the guitar is probably just a waste of time..If we dont like a persons personal style we better just skip to comment it and find something we like instead...
"A Man has to know his limitations"

very well said actually. good analogy

Well said Tommy... i agree everyone has a different style... it would be pretty boring if everyone did the same thing and everyones opinion was the same.... we are all individuals with our own ideas on how things "should be"... its a way of expression...... oh and as for no one expressing an opinion... thought thats what i was doing in here?... wasnt I ?

"

I think that analogy is a good one as well, however it does not apply in all circumstances. For example, if a person is creating a computer generated mountain landscape and due to lack of experience or error in calculation the lanscape ends up looking rather flat, we would of course be able to add in our comment that "your landscape looks a bit flat." And those with the technical knowledge may even be able to suggest ways to avoid that flaw in the future. I would consider this to be appropriate constructive criticism. It is pointing out an area for improvement which has nothing to do with individual style or taste.

I think his analogy would apply there in that there would be no way of telling if the artist who created the landscape intended for it to be flat or not. You would be assuming its an error.

I think that is silly. There are times when it is quite obvious that an image can be improved technically. If you are intending to create a "mountain landscape" you would not create it flat, or it would no longer be a "mountain landscape"

haha, well i guess it depends on how flat we're talkin.

I think you just like to play "devils advocate" ;)

hehe
*caught*

.... :P

" think that is silly. There are times when it is quite obvious that an image can be improved technically. If you are intending to create a "mountain landscape" you would not create it flat, or it would no longer be a "mountain landscape"
I like to comment this things...
I understand that this is what you think..So its a subjective opinion..right?
Another person maybe would "see" the flat mountain as a symbol for degradation or something else..sometimes a different and unusual style can make another message comes through? Art is to give the artists Viewpoint of the reality, in the way he look at it and wants to express it...
How come Picasso become world famous? Was it because he was so good at duplicate a mountain exactly the way it look or was it because of his personal style? Its nothing wrong to create "realistic" images ..i just dont think that all people have an interest in that.
So next time you see a flat Mountain use your imagination,, You might see behind the surface and find something more interesting..who knows?

In Portugal we said that «an image is more important than 1000 words».
I am very poor on my comments because my English is not very good , so i trie to tell in one word what the pic told to me.
Do you understand?.
César

I think this is going a bit far. I was speaking as if someone really did intend to make a realistic rendition of a mountain. There are times when people are simply trying to re-create a realistic scene and this is what I was using as my example. Not everyone is making a symbolistic statement. Some peoples choice of art is to copy reality, e.g. to make a computer generated image appear as real as a photograph. My point was only that I feel it is ok to suggest technical improvements.

Wow thanks guys this is a real reminder (for ive been slacking *apoligies*) ..im only half way through reading the discussion ..so ill have to wait to post my views but i definatly will start trying to critize more constructively. And then after my constructive critizim my sig can be "I learn to critize constructively with the new [program] discussion topic "Constructive Criticism" (On Caedes' near you!) (in a advertizing tone)

If i feel a must to suggest something i would still first ask what the artist want to express to see if my suggestions would be of any value for the artist..
It doesnt go against your opinion its just a personal communication formula that i think is more respectful...You can avoid a lot of missunderstandings and you give the Artist a chance to express what he/she wants before we give our suggestions...its not more complicated than that for me...;-)

All I can say is......... Exactly !!.......... (clap! clap! clap! clap!)... cant make it any clearer than that..... :D

Tommy62 wrote "you give the Artist a chance to express what he/she wants before we give our suggestions..."

That is why there is an image description box on the upload page, for the artist to explain about the image, unfortunately some artists only put "...".

True! Its still doesnt change my opinion about how i threat artists..Like i said im not against constructive criticism its just the communication formula i try to express here..
Its up to other people how they do, personally i prefer to ask the artist about his/her idea before i go into any deeper suggestions about an image..Cant really see the conflict in that?

...did anyone read my last post ...i thought it was funny ...apparently not.. ..i probably wrote it and it doesnt make since.. and Piner thats what i was thinking. As for tommy ..im not sure what your getting at...

To Liquidguitar JP.....Well i have tried to express my opinion a couple of times on here so what is it that is not clear for you?

I qoute myself...... "Its up to other people how they do, personally i prefer to ask the artist more about his/her idea before i go into any deeper suggestions about how someone might improve their image..Cant really see the conflict in that?

'threat artists'?

;-)

Troublemaker! ;)

I dont understand why or what the point is to asking the artist what their opinion or idea is. There is a discription but yeah some people dont use it. Anyway im only half way done reading the topic board so im sorry i should not have commented to you without fully reading what was going on. ..im dumb.

Its cool! Im just an Alien....;-)

lol.