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Discussion Board -> Non-art Website Issues -> caedes.net vs. Flikr, Photobucket et al
caedes.net vs. Flikr, Photobucket et al
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Well for a start I would go back to discouraging snapshots ;)
Caedes is not like those "others" we have the quality and I think MOST people on here KNOW that it is NOT a dumping ground for family shots (unless artistically done) or a picture of grass growing ;)
Caedes is not like those "others" we have the quality and I think MOST people on here KNOW that it is NOT a dumping ground for family shots (unless artistically done) or a picture of grass growing ;)
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MY GALLERY
........... "Live one day at a time and make it a masterpiece"
I agree with Jacqueline about snapshots. Comparing Caedes to the "others", we are definitely above them as far as quality goes.
Personally, I would like see something on site such as an ongoing challenge or assignment. Pick a simple or complex subject, but the image would have to be creative in some way. The challenge could be weekly, bi-monthly, or monthly.
It would not be a contest, but a learning experience for all members. Member's could take turns in organizing one. Also, since many do not look at the "discussion boards" ~ it may have to be posted on the front page so everyone is aware of it.
Just curious ~ is there a way to send automated PM's to members when there is an upcoming contest / challenge?
Something to think about. :-)
Personally, I would like see something on site such as an ongoing challenge or assignment. Pick a simple or complex subject, but the image would have to be creative in some way. The challenge could be weekly, bi-monthly, or monthly.
It would not be a contest, but a learning experience for all members. Member's could take turns in organizing one. Also, since many do not look at the "discussion boards" ~ it may have to be posted on the front page so everyone is aware of it.
Just curious ~ is there a way to send automated PM's to members when there is an upcoming contest / challenge?
Something to think about. :-)
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Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ George Carlin
Usually when there is an official contest it is put on the front page for all to see.. there is no way of sending automated PM's if there was it would make like easier for sending Rip PM's to members..
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MY GALLERY
........... "Live one day at a time and make it a masterpiece"
Sherree - I do have something along the lines of an ongoing type of contest in the works. I'll know in the next couple of weeks if I can pull it off and I'll get back to you then. 8•)
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One man sees things and says "why?" - but I dream things that never were and I say "why not?"
Sounds good Cat! :-)
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Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ George Carlin
What is the difference ? The difference is quality. On Flickr etc you can upload all kinds of photos to share them with your family & friends & I think that's great. It has a completely different attitude from Caedes & I, for one say, viva la difference !
How or what would/should we do to assure that Caedes doesn't become an "image dumping ground" ?
1.) Yes, go back to discouraging the uploading of snapshots
2.) Continue to offer positive & helpful critique on images
3.) Discourage uploading snapshots.
4.) I'll get back to you
It's not all that hard to tell the difference, it's staring us all in the face ... people just don't want to face it is all. Lots of people say they want this great site & yet when push comes to shove they want to upload pictures of their Great Dane Bitsy playing with little Johnny. As adorable as that may be, is it really Artistic ?
How or what would/should we do to assure that Caedes doesn't become an "image dumping ground" ?
1.) Yes, go back to discouraging the uploading of snapshots
2.) Continue to offer positive & helpful critique on images
3.) Discourage uploading snapshots.
4.) I'll get back to you
It's not all that hard to tell the difference, it's staring us all in the face ... people just don't want to face it is all. Lots of people say they want this great site & yet when push comes to shove they want to upload pictures of their Great Dane Bitsy playing with little Johnny. As adorable as that may be, is it really Artistic ?
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I've got amnesia & deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before ! ......CLICK TO SAVE LIVES !
.......MY GALLERY
It is if it has a 2" frame, and a blur effect... isn't it?
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Please, even if you don't visit my gallery, check out my "Faves".I've left them intact since day "1", and would like it if every image there got the attention they deserved.
Actually, I visit the new images galleries weekly and archive all snapshots older than 7 days.
The good point: the galleries are cleaned
The bad point: the members aren't discouraged to upload snaps
The good point: the galleries are cleaned
The bad point: the members aren't discouraged to upload snaps
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-Pierre-
which makes more work for the mods ;)
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MY GALLERY
........... "Live one day at a time and make it a masterpiece"
To your /\ point, Pierre. As a new(er) member I try not to upload 'snapshots', and think I have, for the most part, succeeded. I did upload a post one evening, and it was rejected by a mod who I will not name (meow). The only reason I feel comfortable singling her out is that she was kind enough to not only send the dreaded form letter, but a rather nice PM letting me know why it was rejected and what I could do to avoid it in the future.
My Point? I am well aware that the Mods are already overworked, but I for one would rather be told upfront and straight-away that "Sorry, this is a snapshot" than have it posted for a week and then removed. I would hope that most members are mature enough to feel the same way.
Rich
My Point? I am well aware that the Mods are already overworked, but I for one would rather be told upfront and straight-away that "Sorry, this is a snapshot" than have it posted for a week and then removed. I would hope that most members are mature enough to feel the same way.
Rich
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"'Life is not a journey to the grave with the
intention of arriving safely in a pretty
and well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up,
totally worn out,
and loudly proclaiming,
"WOW! What a ride!"'
unfortunately there are a lot who are not mature about it so they complain about how their 'snapshot' is not a 'snapshot'
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MY GALLERY
........... "Live one day at a time and make it a masterpiece"
Well, for the ones who complain it's not a snapshot often enough, that is, the ones who don't learn anything from the experience of having their image rejected, maybe there could be some sort of disciplinary action, preceded by a warning, that they will not be allowed to post for a certain period or some such thing. There has to be a way to handle such nonsense and not always fall back on .." but there are those who will complain, etc..." So what. What Cat did was the very best option taken that anyone could possibly offer that as Rich said would be accepted by mature adults. The fact that she offered a suggestion along with the rejection helps the poster know what it is that caused the rejection and makes the rejection a little more palatable.
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Click here -> CHANGE THEIR WORLD
Also: CONSTITUTION IN CRISIS
Well… having been "outed" (thanks Rich. lol), I have a few questions based on things that have been said here.
Let me start off by saying that A) Aediles had the approval button for a limited term only while there was a situation where a lot of Praetori had gotten busy with life etc., and now that more Praetors have been added, life has returned to normal.
However, B) when I was approving images, I did use the Snapshot Form Letter more than once and did not send personal pm's. I sent pm's when the member was new(ish) or trying out a new field, or had written something in their descriptive copy that I felt needed a more personal response. I also did apply different approval standards - more relaxed for people who were new to the site versus somebody with over 20 or 30 images in their gallery.
Anybody is always free to pm and ask any of the mods for an explanation, and to my knowledge have always been responded to, in a courteous and polite manner. In my dealings with people that I pm'd with, most were very reasonable and accepting, despite disappointment in cases, and appreciative of the explanation.
There was only one member who did not, who disagreed with the evaluation of their images and pretty much stalked off in a big huff when they tried to continue to argue the point and was told they were free to post the images elsewhere but not here, and I would not continue to respond on the subject of those particular images. I have to say that person was the exception rather than the rule, but unfortunately that happens often enough. I've been aware of exchanges between other members and mods along similar lines.
The situation I ran into the most often in terms of people questioning a rejection was "but I spent so much time on that shot!", who haven't yet learned the hard lesson that no amount of work can an image which is at it's heart a snapshot or has significant enough flaws "work". The only thing to do when you have a shot like that is chalk it up to a good "friiiiig" and invest your time on a shot that does have enough starting base to work with. (Unless you're going to severely manipulate it and completely change the "texture" of the image). 95% of the time, people accepted that when it was explained, and life continued on fine.
So here are my questions:
1) Do you guys feel that perhaps the Snapshot Form Letter needs to be updated to be more descriptive of final effort failed rather than lack of effort? Does this maybe need a separate form letter? Or is it the idea of the form letter itself which bothers you? (The form letter was created so that people would have some explanation rather than a rejection with no explanation at all).
2) Would you like to see stricter standards if there was more interaction to explain why an image was rejected? Would you be okay with an anonymous Mod comment explaining it? I ask that last because some mods are less willing than others to deal with getting blowback from members who don't accept the evaluation, but are perfectly willing to give an explanation and really do want to help members improve. They just don't want to get abused for doing it. 8•)
3) One of the main goals of this site is to help artists improve, and to be inclusive - which means allowing dissenters to have their say even if others don't always agree with them. At which point do you feel that penalties should be put into place for people who argue continuously? (By this I mostly mean people doing the Haute Artiste routine, not people who may continuously politely question rejections, etc and accept when a mod says they don't want to continue the discussion any further).
While I apologize for the book (again), I really would like to know what everyone thinks, and I encourage discussion and debate, but without arguments please.
Let me start off by saying that A) Aediles had the approval button for a limited term only while there was a situation where a lot of Praetori had gotten busy with life etc., and now that more Praetors have been added, life has returned to normal.
However, B) when I was approving images, I did use the Snapshot Form Letter more than once and did not send personal pm's. I sent pm's when the member was new(ish) or trying out a new field, or had written something in their descriptive copy that I felt needed a more personal response. I also did apply different approval standards - more relaxed for people who were new to the site versus somebody with over 20 or 30 images in their gallery.
Anybody is always free to pm and ask any of the mods for an explanation, and to my knowledge have always been responded to, in a courteous and polite manner. In my dealings with people that I pm'd with, most were very reasonable and accepting, despite disappointment in cases, and appreciative of the explanation.
There was only one member who did not, who disagreed with the evaluation of their images and pretty much stalked off in a big huff when they tried to continue to argue the point and was told they were free to post the images elsewhere but not here, and I would not continue to respond on the subject of those particular images. I have to say that person was the exception rather than the rule, but unfortunately that happens often enough. I've been aware of exchanges between other members and mods along similar lines.
The situation I ran into the most often in terms of people questioning a rejection was "but I spent so much time on that shot!", who haven't yet learned the hard lesson that no amount of work can an image which is at it's heart a snapshot or has significant enough flaws "work". The only thing to do when you have a shot like that is chalk it up to a good "friiiiig" and invest your time on a shot that does have enough starting base to work with. (Unless you're going to severely manipulate it and completely change the "texture" of the image). 95% of the time, people accepted that when it was explained, and life continued on fine.
So here are my questions:
1) Do you guys feel that perhaps the Snapshot Form Letter needs to be updated to be more descriptive of final effort failed rather than lack of effort? Does this maybe need a separate form letter? Or is it the idea of the form letter itself which bothers you? (The form letter was created so that people would have some explanation rather than a rejection with no explanation at all).
2) Would you like to see stricter standards if there was more interaction to explain why an image was rejected? Would you be okay with an anonymous Mod comment explaining it? I ask that last because some mods are less willing than others to deal with getting blowback from members who don't accept the evaluation, but are perfectly willing to give an explanation and really do want to help members improve. They just don't want to get abused for doing it. 8•)
3) One of the main goals of this site is to help artists improve, and to be inclusive - which means allowing dissenters to have their say even if others don't always agree with them. At which point do you feel that penalties should be put into place for people who argue continuously? (By this I mostly mean people doing the Haute Artiste routine, not people who may continuously politely question rejections, etc and accept when a mod says they don't want to continue the discussion any further).
While I apologize for the book (again), I really would like to know what everyone thinks, and I encourage discussion and debate, but without arguments please.
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One man sees things and says "why?" - but I dream things that never were and I say "why not?"
FINE, so I wrote a book and you didn't want to read all the chapters… but I am really interested in the answers to these questions:
1) Do you guys feel that perhaps the Snapshot Form Letter needs to be updated to be more descriptive of final effort failed rather than lack of effort? Does this maybe need a separate form letter? Or is it the idea of the form letter itself which bothers you? (The form letter was created so that people would have some explanation rather than a rejection with no explanation at all).
2) Would you like to see stricter standards if there was more interaction to explain why an image was rejected? Would you be okay with an anonymous Mod comment explaining it? I ask that last because some mods are less willing than others to deal with getting blowback from members who don't accept the evaluation, but are perfectly willing to give an explanation and really do want to help members improve. They just don't want to get abused for doing it. 8•)
3) One of the main goals of this site is to help artists improve, and to be inclusive - which means allowing dissenters to have their say even if others don't always agree with them. At which point do you feel that penalties should be put into place for people who argue continuously? (By this I mostly mean people doing the Haute Artiste routine, not people who may continuously politely question rejections, etc and accept when a mod says they don't want to continue the discussion any further).
1) Do you guys feel that perhaps the Snapshot Form Letter needs to be updated to be more descriptive of final effort failed rather than lack of effort? Does this maybe need a separate form letter? Or is it the idea of the form letter itself which bothers you? (The form letter was created so that people would have some explanation rather than a rejection with no explanation at all).
2) Would you like to see stricter standards if there was more interaction to explain why an image was rejected? Would you be okay with an anonymous Mod comment explaining it? I ask that last because some mods are less willing than others to deal with getting blowback from members who don't accept the evaluation, but are perfectly willing to give an explanation and really do want to help members improve. They just don't want to get abused for doing it. 8•)
3) One of the main goals of this site is to help artists improve, and to be inclusive - which means allowing dissenters to have their say even if others don't always agree with them. At which point do you feel that penalties should be put into place for people who argue continuously? (By this I mostly mean people doing the Haute Artiste routine, not people who may continuously politely question rejections, etc and accept when a mod says they don't want to continue the discussion any further).
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One man sees things and says "why?" - but I dream things that never were and I say "why not?"
Oh look ... a dead horse.
:oP
:oP
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"Think what a better world it would be if we all, the whole world, had cookies and milk about three o'clock every afternoon and then lay down on our blankets for a nap." - Robert Fulghum
*kicks Sir …* wait… he wasn't Verbose… this is such a shock to my system… I don't know what to do now… *wanders off in a daze*
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One man sees things and says "why?" - but I dream things that never were and I say "why not?"
Hi Cat,
1) I have not seen the Snapshot Form Letter, so I can't say for sure that it should be revised, but I have no issue whatsoever with the concept of a Form Letter. But, I think you could have 10,000 form letters and you would still find people complaining and defending their snapshots. Try to please everyone and you'll please no one. I'd be interested to know the percentage of uploaders who argue their rejected works.
2) I am 100% for stricter standards. I came across an image just today in the new images gallery that I couldn't believe was accepted. To me it seemed the very definition of what's been discussed over and over here as to what constitutes a snapshot. I think your idea regarding anonymous Mod comments explaining rejection of works is a fine one. There is no reason for a Mod to have to be subjected to abuse for volunteering their time here, if anonymous feedback will help this, then I am all for it.
3) I'm actually surprised that uploaders have the ability to directly challenge the mod responsible for disallowing their image. I would think that a mod's decision should be a final one. Perhaps creating a forum for people to post links to rejected works if they wish discussion and/or crtique over why the work was not accepted. This would take the heat off the mods a bit.
1) I have not seen the Snapshot Form Letter, so I can't say for sure that it should be revised, but I have no issue whatsoever with the concept of a Form Letter. But, I think you could have 10,000 form letters and you would still find people complaining and defending their snapshots. Try to please everyone and you'll please no one. I'd be interested to know the percentage of uploaders who argue their rejected works.
2) I am 100% for stricter standards. I came across an image just today in the new images gallery that I couldn't believe was accepted. To me it seemed the very definition of what's been discussed over and over here as to what constitutes a snapshot. I think your idea regarding anonymous Mod comments explaining rejection of works is a fine one. There is no reason for a Mod to have to be subjected to abuse for volunteering their time here, if anonymous feedback will help this, then I am all for it.
3) I'm actually surprised that uploaders have the ability to directly challenge the mod responsible for disallowing their image. I would think that a mod's decision should be a final one. Perhaps creating a forum for people to post links to rejected works if they wish discussion and/or crtique over why the work was not accepted. This would take the heat off the mods a bit.
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"What I am is what I am, are you what you are or what?"
The original question was how could Caedes not fall in the same trap as the other sites did. Well I’m on one of these sites, more precisely Webshots.com where one of my image is featured on their home page today. It’s one of my London pictures, one that I got a low c-index here on Caedes, while on Webshots I’ll be me getting 15-20,000 views and 300 comments today. Not a small feat when you think that they get 100,000 images each day. I never felt that good on Caedes, well maybe when Mr. Pigeon took one of my archived image and put it in the permanent gallery if it was not for him, I'd be gone.
Webshots allows me up to 10,400 pictures plus 100 more each month. They make me feel like a valued member. That was not in all time. Yes in the first years, we help them getting a respectable site and the owners sold it for a few millions. The new owners asked for a fee for our contribution and impose a limit to our uploads, that's when I left the boat. Recently I got a message from them letting me mount unlimited number of albums, a total volte-face, so I went back and got 2 albums featured even before they were finish.
Maybe I'm bloating too much, but you should find some idea in this story to get Caedes back on track.
Sorry I hate to write and can't elaborate more.
Webshots allows me up to 10,400 pictures plus 100 more each month. They make me feel like a valued member. That was not in all time. Yes in the first years, we help them getting a respectable site and the owners sold it for a few millions. The new owners asked for a fee for our contribution and impose a limit to our uploads, that's when I left the boat. Recently I got a message from them letting me mount unlimited number of albums, a total volte-face, so I went back and got 2 albums featured even before they were finish.
Maybe I'm bloating too much, but you should find some idea in this story to get Caedes back on track.
Sorry I hate to write and can't elaborate more.
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You present an interesting point of view Michel. However Caedes is currently rated at number 2 on the top 40 list at wallpaperreview.com and number 1 at the bestwallpaperwebsites.blogspot.com top 40 list. While Webshots doesn’t get a look in at either of those sites. So I think Webshots could learn a lot from Caedes.
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There are three colours, Ten digits and seven notes, its what we do with them that’s important.
Ruth Ross
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-Pierre-
Sorry but 91,000 views and 16,000 dls in one day for my London album(all desktop images, the dls are not counting the right click saves but just those that are using their screensaver software). Like a famous Borg daid" It is futile to resist "
Now I know why Webshots is not on that list. I also know that my images will have to be on Caedes for the next 91 years before it reach the same stats.
Caedes and Webshots started roughtly at same time. Panoramio is probably not on that list either but the sold their right/services for millions in lest than a year. They most be doing something right.
Now I know why Webshots is not on that list. I also know that my images will have to be on Caedes for the next 91 years before it reach the same stats.
Caedes and Webshots started roughtly at same time. Panoramio is probably not on that list either but the sold their right/services for millions in lest than a year. They most be doing something right.
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Michel: what do you want to prove by compare webshots and Caedes? They are different sites, with differents goals IMO...
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-Pierre-
Yes Caedes & Webshots are very very different.
Not only for sites & goals but webshots are know to be full of rips too.
Caedes is owned by 1 person which started out as a hobby, Webshots is run by a full administration. Yes Webshots get a lot of traffic and has a lot of members but there is also a lot of very poor quality images on there and if I remember rightly you can post anything on there.
Caedes is a family orientated site that is full of top quality images THATS why its as high as it is on the popularity ladder.
A site can have millions of members and millions of visitors that doesn't mean that its the best, obviously Caedes IS doing something right even if it doesn't have that amount of members that Webshots have to get to the #1 & #2 positions instead of Webshots.. its all about quality not quantity.
Seems to me Michel that your not so happy with Caedes but just rave about Webshots, my opinion is go where your heart is if your not happy move on because Caedes will never be like Webshots.
Not only for sites & goals but webshots are know to be full of rips too.
Caedes is owned by 1 person which started out as a hobby, Webshots is run by a full administration. Yes Webshots get a lot of traffic and has a lot of members but there is also a lot of very poor quality images on there and if I remember rightly you can post anything on there.
Caedes is a family orientated site that is full of top quality images THATS why its as high as it is on the popularity ladder.
A site can have millions of members and millions of visitors that doesn't mean that its the best, obviously Caedes IS doing something right even if it doesn't have that amount of members that Webshots have to get to the #1 & #2 positions instead of Webshots.. its all about quality not quantity.
Seems to me Michel that your not so happy with Caedes but just rave about Webshots, my opinion is go where your heart is if your not happy move on because Caedes will never be like Webshots.
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MY GALLERY
........... "Live one day at a time and make it a masterpiece"
They are definitely different animals – for me, the main problem with webshots/ flickr etc is they for the most part un-moderated. Policy violations, copyright thefts etc are left unchecked and the responsibility for weeding these out is left to the members at large.
A lot of rips we get posted here – particularly travel photography – are usually stolen from webshots. I can see the attraction of them but also despise the image dumping ground style too. Caedes.net has always tried to encourage people to promote their best work whatever their skill level – I’d hate to see it turn into a file sharing utility.
A lot of rips we get posted here – particularly travel photography – are usually stolen from webshots. I can see the attraction of them but also despise the image dumping ground style too. Caedes.net has always tried to encourage people to promote their best work whatever their skill level – I’d hate to see it turn into a file sharing utility.
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A smart bomb is only as clever as the idiot that tells it what to do
Reject Form Letter? I've never gotten or seen one. Is there anywhere on this site to read up about the policy and the what, why and who's
Thanks.. just curious
Thanks.. just curious
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Hey Diane,
The rejection form letter, I can't link you to it's origins on the site here, however ... it is a reiteration of couple of items and one page in particular, that I can.
First, this page here. Which is, as you may or may not know ... summarizes the Code of Conduct and outlines imagery that is acceptable to the site.
As well, on the 'uploads page' ... everyone implicitly agrees to a couple of things by checking the one box there; "This image is in compliance with the Code of Conduct (<--- link inserted here). "
This must be done and is viewed as acceptance of 'terms of uploading' prior to then clicking the "Upload" button and subsequently uploading their images to the site:
i) The image conforms to the CoC.
ii) And of noteworthy importance; and I quote;
"By uploading an image you affirm that the image cannot be claimed as intellectual property by any third party. If the uploaded image is found to violate any third party's property the image will be prompty removed."
Annnnnd ...
"Please note that uploading non-artistic snapshot (<--- link inserted here) images is strongly discouraged."
Which leads to this linked page regarding snapshots.
The rejection form letter, I can't link you to it's origins on the site here, however ... it is a reiteration of couple of items and one page in particular, that I can.
First, this page here. Which is, as you may or may not know ... summarizes the Code of Conduct and outlines imagery that is acceptable to the site.
As well, on the 'uploads page' ... everyone implicitly agrees to a couple of things by checking the one box there; "This image is in compliance with the Code of Conduct (<--- link inserted here). "
This must be done and is viewed as acceptance of 'terms of uploading' prior to then clicking the "Upload" button and subsequently uploading their images to the site:
i) The image conforms to the CoC.
ii) And of noteworthy importance; and I quote;
"By uploading an image you affirm that the image cannot be claimed as intellectual property by any third party. If the uploaded image is found to violate any third party's property the image will be prompty removed."
Annnnnd ...
"Please note that uploading non-artistic snapshot (<--- link inserted here) images is strongly discouraged."
Which leads to this linked page regarding snapshots.
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"Think what a better world it would be if we all, the whole world, had cookies and milk about three o'clock every afternoon and then lay down on our blankets for a nap." - Robert Fulghum
Well now Dianne, if you really want to see a reject form letter… it could be arranged :-)
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There are three colours, Ten digits and seven notes, its what we do with them that’s important.
Ruth Ross
Ha! I believe I do have some pictures that would warrant a prompt and swift kick to the curb...such as my new TV, a cut on my finger, new slippers, a gallon jug of Mrs Butterworths syrup, my new purse..etc" etc".but I don't think I need to see a reject letter bad enough to submit one, you guys have enough to do as it is.
Thanks for your timely and polite answers
Thanks for your timely and polite answers
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Wow!...Like we're still over the likes of DeviantArt and Pixelgirl in many of the popular wallpaper art ratings!
ESPECIALLY dA...I HATE animae wannabees!
ESPECIALLY dA...I HATE animae wannabees!
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"Who says the music's dead in the street?...Don't know what they talk about...I like my music wakin' up the dead...Don't tell me to turn it down!!!" - Motley Crue ... Visit Jhihmoac's Gallery
If so, what are those differences to you?
And how or what would you do to assure that our site does not become an 'image dumping ground', as some of the other sites have been referred to (incorrectly or no)?