I find that most users dont give constructive comments. Its my opinion that a lot of people are TOO NICE and dont want to offend when commenting. It almost seems like the comments just run around in a whirl of lovelyness and are not realistic at all. Not to say that ALL comments are like that. Some of the the users give really well informed and honest feedback. The majority of them just dont have any point though. I hope this doesn't sound too negative. I love the site and really enjoy putting photos on to it. I just think that the feedback in general could have a bit more edge, if you know what I mean.

I agree 100%. In fact, it was precisely this problem which made me take time out in search of real CRITICism. I found it, improved my style and have now returned - only to find the same mindset. I know for a fact there's loads of room for improvement in my pictures. God knows, there's enough raw talent around here to prove that, but rarely does anyone tell me what's wrong with my pictures. C'mon, I can take it. Having said that, it's a breath of fresh air to be "complaining " about folks being too nice. C'est la vie!

Exactly.. unfortunately some members take offence of real criticism and have lashed out at the critic, even if the "suggestion" was eg. if you straight the pic, or increase the colour, adjust the exposure.. simple things like that have been known to have lovely little PMs sent to the critic thats why i think a lot of people won't help anymore which is a shame because everyone can improve from the tips.

There are a few threads that have a discussion on this topic if you want to browse and have a read, some have got pretty heated over it so i would try the elephant graveyard first ;)

I think one of the main issues is that not everyone posts their work on Caedes for a "critique." They simply want to show off their pictures.

So, I suppose we have to look at the purpose of this website. Is Caedes meant to be an image critique site? It certainly didn't start that way.

I for one love an honest, evaluative critique. But I think the reason many don't give them is that they aren't sure which members on the site are looking for a critique. And let's face it...who wants to deal with a whiny pissed off person because you've told them their overexposed picture of their pet Fifi lacks interest.

I think that is probably why the Request for Comment forum started. A place where people who want honest feedback on their images can request it.

This is a bit of a problem however for those who would like honest evaluations of all their work. We couldn't realistically post links to every image we upload in the Request for Comment forum.

Perhaps we should come up with a tag to add to our images for those who wish constructive criticism. Something like adding Constructive Critique Requested to the image description. This way people will know who wants to hear the good, bad and ugly :)

...to add to Rebecca's comments, I think another reason for the lack of real critiques is that people browse through the galleries and pick out only the shots they like and are drawn too and, hence, give the standard, "Great shot" comment. I'm guilty of this as well, but I try to pick out shots that aren't necessarily my style or where I could add some worthwhile commentary.

I say, make constructive criticisms and if people come back at you all pissed off, just ignore them!!

Yes Stephen, I have to admit that I am guilty of the same sort of comments, although I do try now to make some sort of constructive remark or have a definate opinion rather then add to the 'nice shot' brigade! I'd agree too that if someone doesn't like your comment well hard luck just ignore it. Come on thats what a proper annalysis is about. Positive and negative. A photographer will never learn if all they get our positive and praising comments. As an amateur myself I've really learned from some people on here and there great advise on pictures posted. So I say keep the constructive critique coming! Thanks for responding to the post. Some great points made. P.s Rebecca i think I know of what picture you mean when you talk about the fifi pet picture!

Frustrating to those seeking critical commentary?

Most definitely ... yes.

I am glad to see threads like this one here started by Michael get posted up for discussion. And to see members providing feedback to this subject.

Hair-brained idea ... off the cuff ... sort of, kind of ... as I have had this idea before.

Anyone interested in forming a 'club' or group of individuals whose mission statement would be to address just this same topic?

Haven't formalized anything in my mind, but did have some thoughts sketched out ... like:

i) A roving extension and group of individuals based on the idea behind the creation of the Request for Comment forums.

ii) Those seeking more critical commentary could submit requests to the group ... first come, first served ... in return for said requesting members providing ... hmm, five (<--- arbitrary number here, not fleshed out) critical comments to other artists in reciprocation for receiving the groups' commentaries.

It would be my hope that this idea/concept of critical commentary reciprocation would eventually snowball once it became more widely known to the membership at large.


ii) is being put out there as a suggestion, since some times ... as I have noticed ... 'Requests for Comments' posts kind of languish for a while themselves before a response or responses are garnered.

Just take a look at the posts to past individual requests.

That said, there are some members that do frequent these request posts and do provide feedback ... but are not visible. In that they do not post to the actual request thread and just head on over to the images in question. So, the numbers only tell part of the story.


That said ... and this is the real crux of the situation as I view it ... time.

It takes time.

Which would you rather be doing? Photographing, commenting on friend's images, working, eating, sleeping (<--- being a bit facetious here :oP) ... and so forth ... or?

I did find Rebecca's comments regarding the origins of the site ... enlightening, let's say. I was and have always been under the impression that the site did evolve ... perhaps, not immediately so ... into that which is stated as the site's intent and own mission statement of sorts. To provide a place wherein artists could post their work, share their expertise, help and encourage growth for fellow artists through constructive criticism.

That has always been my approach to commentary. No problems thus far and I don't anticipate any ... 'cause as 'we' seem to be saying ... if someone takes offense ... just move on. Their loss, simply stated.

Best stop here, as once again ... I have written a novelette.

So ... thoughts??

Yes, No and Maybe!!

That's the answer.

Yup, I have friends and they have me...we generally leave 'nice' comments, but I think they'd tell me the true as well. I know I've done such...even on some of my friends images!! Kinda like...what happened out there or sumpin'!! But, in general YES!! There's not enough critiquing goin' down!! I personally wanna learn!! Screw my ego!!

Jac hit a good 'nail on the head' so to speak!!

Plez feel free...ANYONE...to go through my crap and leave a critiique on room for improvements...I only aim to please and if I can't do better then sumpin's wrong!!

I think if your going to have a group for "critic" maybe it would be good to have the "critics" divided into their genre.. You know photographers to comment on photos, Fractalists to comment on fractals etc.. that way we don't have the "but-I-don't-do-those-so-how-can-I-critic" syndrome

I say why not just have a checkbox when image is uploaded stating I want the truth or nothing at all.

That might work tbob in moving 'us' towards the objective that has surfaced in this discussion.

Randy above has done as much and as mentioned above on some of his past images ... placing a 'tag' of sorts, wherein he asked for specific feedback on elements of an image he posted.

It would be my hope that if ... if, something like a critic's circle of members were formed ... others would come around to that way of thinking and move them out of their comfort zones, so to speak.

Now, if you'll excuse me ... back to the cloning drawing board ... gonna need a few more Phils on board. ;o)

i cant agree more! i try my hardest not to give standard good comments. maybe i am recalling a time that didnt exist but i remember comments being more critical and constructive in the old days here. i try to critique but i admit even i water down my comments too much!

I like your idea Les ... I believe a "critic's circle" would be beneficial to the site & it's members. Jackie brought up a good idea to separate the critic groups according to genre.

For myself, I have done both ... given out the "nice" comments, but also have given out constructive ones. Sadly the nice comments outweigh the constructive ones.

On another thread recently there was a similar discussion & it for the most part changed my attitude about why I am here. I love to share my work, but firstly I have the desire to improve in something I enjoy doing whether it is fractals or photography. Also, to share some of my knowledge on improving an image with other members ... whether they accept it or not is up to the individual, but I have found most very receptive & grateful. I know when I look at my own work there is ALWAYS room for improvement. I remember several years ago, I would get at least one constuctive critique for every image I uploaded ... that for the most part has gone by the wayside since my return 5 months ago. I gave out alot more constructive one's back then also.

Trends??? To me Constructive Critiques = Encouragement

I found this site recently on doing a photo critique & it has helped me thus far in my comments on images, but also in self-critiquing my own work.

I would vote for the check box which asks for constructive comments or none at all. If it is a good photo, then tell the person why you like it.

CanoeGuru's idea is a great solution for now and easy to implement.

It's funny - When I comment on a work, I usually compose the remark, then look to see whose work I critiqued just before I post the comment - just to be sure I'm not instructing ppigeon about the rules of composition or telling kodo about lighting. or something like that. As was pointed out by our noble leader a critical comment should always include recognition of the good qualities in a particular work. On one godawful image full of insipid comments, like "great job!" Kiefer began his acerbic comment with, "Nice shade of green." then went on to rip the guy a new one for having posted a blurred camera-phone photo of his new baby.

But I digress.

The idea of being diplomatic is to ensure that the recipient of the comment actually takes it to heart rather than just dismissing it as a personal attack. On the other hand we do want our members to improve, and banal, meaningless, compliments do not help anyone.

" ... then look to see whose work I critiqued just before I post the comment - just to be sure I'm not instructing ppigeon about the rules of composition or telling kodo about lighting. or something like that."

Why ... why, didn't I get the inner-office memo on this?? :o|

I apply my ignorance and stupidity equally. That way, no one can cry discrimination. :oD

I have read all this discussion and it has done me a lot of good.When I first started posting photos on Caedes, I was somewhat nervous about offering a " criticism " of anyone's photo, since being a very beginner, I felt it wasn't "my place" to critique someone else's photos. ( you know, the old bow down.. I am not worthy...) Then one time I made a very honest critique of a photo and it turned out it was by one of the "higher up" members, but he thanked me and said he had not realized that particular flaw before then and thanked me for being honest and pointing it out. That went a long way to helping me.
Also, I am not so fond of the whole voting booth concept. For awhile I stopped submitting photos because they seemed to get too low votes and all my photos ended up archived. I didn't like the competition aspect. I tend to be more critical of photos that show up in my comment request area, not sure why.
So that's my ramble.. I do like the idea of there being a way to indicate if your submission is in hopes of some serious critique or if you are submitting just to share what you think is a "nice" picture. I have seen a few photos showing up where I bit my tongue, so to speak, since they looked more like material for a My Space or Face Book page..
Thank you for letting me express my views here.
Kat

Then again, I got a complaint a few minutes ago about a perfectly valid and very polite criticism left on the members image (which had quite a low c-index, all the more reason to think they would be appreciative). The member complained that we should all be making sure that comments like this are immediately erased. Just goes to show you can never satisfy everybody.

Yes, see this is what I meant when I said everyone is not here on Caedes to receive critique. I have a feeling some don't even realize they might get critique. The opening line on the homepage is: "Caedes is a close community of artists, designers, and photographers who share their work" Nothing about critique there. Now, I am all for it. But it seems logical to me that those who wish to receive it need some way to indicate they are looking for it. Personally, I've stopped commenting very much because I am never sure who wants to hear honesty over "nice shot". And I don't want to deal with angry people because I told them their horizon is crooked, etc. I do wish this issue would be addressed, as Caedes is a great place with just the right amount of people to make it easier to receive good consistent feedback on our art, if we only know who wants it.

I am always very greatful to anyone who gives any kind of advice and always try to be honset in my opinions and where possible give advice or say why I didn`t like it but some pictures I see are beyond critique and just shouldn`t be here, so here we have a difficult choice to be honest, lie or ignore. I tend to be honest and I get abuse and sometimes it can be quite funny I`m going to remove the name of the uploader and the work but here`s a PM I got the other day:

You know Ian, as looking through some images I noticed your frankly rude comment on XXXXXX picture entitled XXXXXXXXXX.
First off, I officially joined this website just to write you. Over the years of reviewing this site I have seen many images of many different subjects, some professional and some not.
Do you complain about seeing peoples children on here? Why would I want someone else's children on my desktop, further, why would I want someone else's house on my desktop, how about somebody else's art, somebody's pets? Why would I want it.
Everybody is different, everybody finds beauty or humor in different things and who are you to criticize? If you dont want to see it, dont look at it. This site is not designed to be rude, it is designed to share with others and offer improvements, not degrade somebody else's work. If you want to put somebody's work down to try to publicly humiliate somebody, do it to your own, yours isn't perfect. Here's a start, work on your focus and artifacting issues .....

~persons name

Now to the chances of someone who has been browsing round about here for a few years joining the site just to lambast me for passing comment on a frankly poor image are about zero, so I have no doubt it was the uploader who got a relative or friend to join the site just to have a go at me. I have returned to them the Caedes.net snapshot policy and await more abuse.

Ian :)

We go around about this all the time. Sometimes there just is no 'edge' to be found.

It takes too long to write comments. We need texting shorthand.

GI10 - Gave It a 10

L2G2OOM - Lucky To Get a 2 Out Of Me

TOTS - Take Off Time Stamp

RT4MKNW - Ripping This For My Kewl New Website

TOLC - Take Off Lens Cap

YEAS - Your Edits Are Showing

ILYS-DHM - I Love Your Snapshot - Don't Hurt Me

CO&SSNA1OM - Come Over And Say Something Nice About One Of Mine

CDMWDSOYP - 'Composition' Doesn't Mean Writing Dumb Stuff On Your Pix

TOCBDL - Taking Off Clothes Before Downloading

KLCOA - Keep Lens Cap On Always

DIWITOT - Dang I Wish I'd Thought Of That

MFIBTYF - My Fractal Is Bigger Than Your Fractal

IRJ2PMU - I Registered Just To PM You

3C&P210MPOD - Chain Comment - Cut And Paste To 10 More Pix Or Die

WYDSYMOLM4I - Would You Date Someone You Met Online? Like Me For Instance?

IISAFIS - If I See Another Foof I'll Spew

Yeah, well, it needs to be alphabetized and stuff. Somebody plug Baby Big Ears back in and put him to work.

My two cents ...

If you don't wish to have criticism coming your way, rude, constructive or otherwise ... don't post images to the net ... period.

Insofar as our beloved site goes?

The praise and 'nice' comments, hold equal weight in my mind with the constructive criticism. Although I do have a preference for the latter, but ... that simply rests with me. As they are in short supply in my eyes.

This may be going off on a tangent, however ... in friendships, I value that friend who takes the time ... and possible risk of offence ... to share with me those thoughts that go against the flow of what is easier said in whichever instance.

Those friendships of mine I hold dear, as they are few and far between.

And I'll add ... that in coming across Ian's tracks on the site here, I've not seen anything he posted in his words as offensive to my sensibilities.

Opinionated at times, sure ... nothing wrong with that ... how 'one' chooses to interpret said words ... rests with the individual, the recipient ... not the messenger.

LOL @ Leslie's post.

Ahhh ... some levity, just what was needed. Thank you. :o)

@Kat; aka kwaters ... thank you for taking the time to read and then add to the discussion here. :o)

It is appreciated.



General statement here, not directed at any of the above posts specifically ... as always ... in any case of abusive remarks/comments, backlash and so on ... please feel free to hit the 'complain' button if you are indeed offended. That kind of behaviour, if deemed to be so ... will not be tolerated.

A good point Les, if anyone feels an opinion or comment abusive they got the option to report to a mod who (if necessary ) will take action if the if the person giving the comment is out of order and they will be delt with but also takes the gamble that mods will back up the person commenting, and another good point Les made ..... 'If you don't wish to have criticism coming your way, rude, constructive or otherwise ... don't post images to the net ... period......' If you don`t want peoples opinion don`t post.

Ian :)

"This site is not designed to be rude"

Actually I am pretty sure that sums up Caedes original mission statement... don't quote me on that though...

I don`t think anybody would be deliberately rude. There are times that when words that are written can come across very differently as to if the were said (I think this might be something I should work on.....put myself in the readers shoes?????). I wanna be honest but if people don`t want to hear it I got no way of knowing.

Ian :)

All I can say is wow Ian.... you poor guy ! That was one heck of a PM !!

And I admit, I'm often guilty myself of the too nice comment even when I can offer a constructive critique, too often I don't. I never know how it's going to be taken & I really only feel qualified to offer it on digital or abstract images anyway, then there's a certain amount of laziness involved.

You just never know how someone's going to take something.... I offered to help someone get rid of the grain in her Apophysis image & was told in no uncertain terms that it added texture & interest & she liked it because everyone else removed it & if she wanted help she'd ask for it. *shrug*

Though I have been adding some tips on images lately & not in PMs like I usually do. Sometimes it's hard like Ian says.... your kind of stuck not knowing which way to jump.

Maybe people should just start putting a little blurb in their descriptions..... Constructive critiques welcome.

The first time I received a constructive critique my first reaction was to have my feelings hurt. Then to be resentful. This is not the right reaction, but it can be reflex. Most people will be defensive even if they know correction is for their own good. Thankfully all I had to do was look a little closer at the picture to appreciate what I was being told. I thanked the author and have improved accordingly.

The first thing I do before commenting is to look at the persons gallery. If there is little or nothing there I give very soft comment. If there are several to many posts in their gallery I consider how the image compares to their overall ability and try to comment accordingly. Hopefully this will keep me from hurting feelings or putting my foot in my mouth.

All that said, I am guilty of making the Ooo thats pretty comments too. I think the "Constructive critiques welcome" tag line is a good Idea. It might be wise to update the front page to include mention of the word critique in the welcome message too.

I am adding the following on all my images to help people to make better comments. Thanks for the link to "Doing a photo critique" danika. it helped me allot.


Constructive
critiques welcome!



More about "Doing a photo critique"

Hey I may be joining this conversation late but from what I have read above. I agree. I try to add at least one thing in each comment on a photo on how they could improve... Thanks to Les for teaching me a bunch on how to have constuctive critisism. I read earlier about possibly a tag for constructive critique. I think that would be great. I know from looking through the new image gallery looking for a new picture that someone really wonts to know how they are doing.
<PicScout>

I like the idea of placing those links in your image's accompanying narratives DP.

And ScoutPic affirms what has been mentioned in this thread by others with his words, and I quote; "I know from looking through the new image gallery looking for a new picture that someone really wants to know how they are doing."

Without constructive feedback at some point and along the way ... I think the 'artist' either stagnates and/or gets bored and then moves onto their next hobby, so to speak.

Hmm, maybe another possibility. Fame and fortune ... at which point I hope they remember us little people that helped pushed them along the way. ;o)

There are lots of members that appreciate feedback ... even some of the wallflowers that don't come right out and say so. As usual with any activity there is a spectrum of behaviours. Some will offer up their considered thoughts, some will stick to the nice stuff ... some will try to take you down a notch.

Glad to know that you are still enjoying yourselves and what the site has to offer. Keep doing what you are doing. :o)

I think I am getting bolder about comments. I still feel uneasy about making suggestions as I am no expert. If I feel a picture is worth commenting on I sometimes download it and try out my suggestions. I have great difficulties with fractals since I know nothing about them and usually forego comments, even when requested, because beyond the personal taste level I know nothing on this. Pictures I feel that have no merit fortunately seem to get a lot of comments from the social groups their owners exist in relieving me of the need to add to the verbiage. Most times I am requested to comment on a picture it is worth spending some time doing a good job. Only very rarely do I find I have nothing to say and so don't say anything rather than cause offence with my wicked wit. I also notice that I have to be careful because americans take a different meaning from my words than an English person. Two cultures separated by a common language is sooo true.

Good point Chris on the note of wit.

Being a medium of words only, best to avoid the witticisms. And by that I mean, those thoughts/words offered with the intent of 'lightening up' some constructive critique.

Simply doesn't translate well and can come back to haunt you. Aside from muddying the intended message of your words.

Still find myself at times amusing no one else but me ... and then having to eat those words ... I try to keep that in check.

Les, I have seldom seen you be "medium" with words...

o_0

Oh yeah? Them's fightin' words mister. You ... you ... you just watch it.

Or ... I'll comment your next few images into the ground. >:o|

Just kidding ... maybe?

:oD

@ DP (.zunazet) ... I'm glad "Doing A Photo Critique" was helpful. I found some other valuable tips on that site too & also use the one you linked to Giving An Image Review.

At times I don't know who wants to receive constructive criticism, but if I take notice of anything ... I will make a suggestion for improvement & if I feel comfortable doing so based on my expertise.

Best of all this is a wonderful site to share your work as well as learn ...

;-)

Let me throw my two cents in here as a realatively new member. While I agree that "nice picture" repeated 100 times a month doesn't do much for anyone, I am still VERY much a novice at all of this and don't always see the things that a more experienced photographer may see. Sure, if a horizon needs to be straightened or the focus is WAY off I'll make a comment about it. I do however try and at least make a personalized statement about the post, i.e. something that I like about the picture. Please factor that in when thinking about this topic - not all of know enough about photography and editing programs to offer really useful advice.

As far as I am concerned personally, I love getting feedback about improvements. I used to end my naratives with the phrase "comments and critiques welcome", but I found it didn't make much of a difference. Those the had posted critiques in the past continued to, and vice-versa.

Finally, to those of you that have offered suggestions or have taken the time to actually rework one of my posts personally - a HUGE thank you, I have learned much. Remember, the only thing I ask is that when you rework an image of mine and sell it to an advertising agency for a million bucks, I want half ;-)

Rich

Hi Rich,
I took a look at your pictures and posted some maybe helpful hints from my point of view for whatever it's worth.. which might not be much. Please feel free to critique mine anytime, I can take it. I've seen some of mine get rave reviews and then seen it drop through the basement floor. I just delete the dud and try again. ~Diane

Please feel free to give me straigt up critic. I miss that.
I would be glad to know what i can do better. A good way of growing as an artist.
Just dont forgett to be nice and to the point.

/Helena

Finally a group of people who are mature enough to be corrected! I'm really glad I found this thread. And what I found out from reading this thread is that the people here are afraid to tell us whats nice and whats ugly.

What happened to freedom of speech? Are we supposed to limit ourselves? Honestly, I really got addicted to this site and I really loved this site. I came here for one sole purpose, to be critisized so to improve. Instead of critics, i found soft-hearted people. I know I sound to O.A but guess what? I'm just aring out.

Anyways! Happy belated 4th of july!
And I hope the prices of oil would go down, it's affecting our economy badly. Inflation rate is at 11.7%! I hope all would go well.

Yours truly,
Kaiser Sibi, Cebu City Philippines

Hi Kaiser.. its not so much of NOT wanting to critic but as you see from above there are a lot who have given helpful "suggestions" only to be abused.. I agree the only way to improve and learn is with constructive critic..