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Discussion Board -> Desktop Wallpaper, Art, etc. -> lack of constructive criticism

lack of constructive criticism

::vlad421
05/30/08 8:51 PM GMT
Aloha,
I have noticed that most people do not proide any constructive criticism on images. I try to provide some form of constructive criticism on a lot of pictures that I see that aren't quite perfect. Of course there are a lot of shots on here that I can't find anything at all wrong with, but perfection is truly a rare find.
I would like to see people post more constructive criticism in comments on images.. thats how people improve. One of the main reasons I post on here is to see if people see the shot the same way as me, or if there is smething off with it, but 99% of comments i get are variations of "nice shot. good work"
Not that im complaining about the encouraging comments, but it would be nice to see what people like AND dont like about the shot. Because I believe almost every photo can be improved in some way.

From the code of conduct:

"Critiques of people's work should be constructive and if possible informative and supportive. If you don't like something, say so and then tell how it could be improved. "

Does anyone else agree with me?
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::third_eye
05/30/08 9:04 PM GMT
Yes, very much so. Problem is, alot of members seem to prefer to not offer/receive anything overly critical. Reasons offered vary widely. Lots of threads on this particular issue can be found if you dig around a bit.

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Please, even if you don't visit my gallery, check out my "Faves".I've left them intact since day "1", and would like it if every image there got the attention they deserved.
.J_272004
05/30/08 10:44 PM GMT
Absolutely... I think a lot have stopped giving honest critques due to a few artists who take offense and get a bit abusive..
Personally I prefer someone who will tell me whats wrong and how to improve it, it's the only way to learn and improve.
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MY GALLERY ........... "Live one day at a time and make it a masterpiece"
::jeenie11
05/31/08 12:19 AM GMT
i feel that when i want to give a critique i do so in a pm. this way there is no possibility of embarrassing the artist. we, the artist and i, will frequently have a dialogue about the critique and my suggestions and we do this through personal messages.
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sorry if i don't comment on each of your pictures. to those of you who comment so often, i can't imagine how you get it done! Please Visit My Gallery
.J_272004
05/31/08 1:38 AM GMT
Thats good but don't you think if you put the critique on the image that would help others? I know over the years i've picked up a lot of tips and help by reading suggestions etc on other peoples images.. but thats just my opinion, I guess it comes down to what makes you feel comfortable how you critique.
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MY GALLERY ........... "Live one day at a time and make it a masterpiece"
::jeenie11
05/31/08 2:25 AM GMT
what makes me feel comfortable is to make the other photographer comfortable. it's a kindness thing as far as i'm concerned. when i make a critique (and when i do i always offer a suggestion) the person for whom it is intended can make the decision about how to handle it. he can always make adjustments, upload again, and comment that he tried to follow a suggestion which was..................... i've also had some friends who have re done a pic of mine and sent it through email. so at least some people feel a bit the way i do.
your statement, "I think a lot have stopped giving honest critques due to a few artists who take offense and get a bit abusive." makes me think that if the critique had been given privately and not in front of everyone might have been accepted differently.
this is definitely just my honest opinion. i'm not criticizing anyone for doing what he or she thinks is best.
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sorry if i don't comment on each of your pictures. to those of you who comment so often, i can't imagine how you get it done! Please Visit My Gallery
.J_272004
05/31/08 4:44 AM GMT
fair enough.. but in my opinion I feel that if you critic in the image others can learn from it.. its not as if your "pulling the image apart" your helping and i honestly can't see how that can be upsetting to the artist, either way they can try the suggestions or just ignore it as they would in a PM. As I said I just feel that any suggestions can be helpful to other members, so when they read it they might say "wow so thats how that problem can be fixed, I wondered how to do it" ;)... and I'm not critcizing anyone either like I said previously its an individual thing..
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MY GALLERY ........... "Live one day at a time and make it a masterpiece"
zorrofox
05/31/08 9:00 AM GMT
There are also way too many comments like "Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!". I mean, some imagination could be applied to the critique surely?
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::happygoneaway
05/31/08 2:45 PM GMT
The thing I notice, coming back for a look-see, is that it strikes me as very boring compared to some other sites. New blood doesn't seem to rise to the surface at all - and it is all the same as it was a year ago. Oh dear!
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::100k_xle
05/31/08 8:24 PM GMT
I AGREE WITH JEN 100% !
If you feel the need to be a Critic of someones work then send them a PM. If the Site is So Boring then what are you doing Here ?

E J
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::happygoneaway
05/31/08 8:28 PM GMT
Lol! I only came back to see if it had changed. It obviously hasn't, so don't worry - I won't be sticking around.
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::Jimbobedsel
05/31/08 9:02 PM GMT
I for one, have a hard time using constructive criticism on any ones pictures, mainly because I don't feel learned enough to do so. I am not a great photographer, although I probably will be in a few weeks..LOL, and although I understand that we probably should critique the posts, I would rather leave that to the accomplished camera clickers. I love getting comments that make me laugh, but I also don't mind if someone points something out to me about a certain picture. If someone says "good work," or "great shot" that's just fine with me, too. It's all good. I just am not comfortable with making any kind of criticisms. I must say that I have made a few in the past, but then felt lousy after doing so. Hey...that's just me. I'd rather make the member chuckle a little bit. Now, aren't you all glad I wasn't in a redneck kind of mood? LOL.

Jimbob
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DON'T TOUCH THE NOSE!
vlad421
05/31/08 9:19 PM GMT
Wow EJ a little insecure?
I never said the site was boring.. Im just expressing my opinion on a way I feel the site could be better.

Giving your opinion on an image.. even if it includes how you think it could be better, is not by any means a personal attack. And sharing honest opinions about images is not embarassing to the artist. One member may feel that its too dark... someone else might say no its perfect.. by getting an overall consensus the artist can change the work or leave it as it is... I don't have to be a pro photographer to be able to see that I might think an image is underexposed or oversaturated for example. It's just a personal opinion.. But hey if you want to only receive positive feedback and never grow as an artist, maybe there could be a little icon or something that indicates wether members want to receive constructive critical feedback or not.
that way those of us who are trying to improve, and havent reached the status of perfect photographers or artists yet, can continue to improve our skills.

Any opinions on that idea? (i can handle them)
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.J_272004
06/02/08 10:06 AM GMT
There is no such thing as a perfect photographer or perfect artist, even the best of the best have flaws so your safe ;) lol
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MY GALLERY ........... "Live one day at a time and make it a masterpiece"
::100k_xle
06/02/08 12:11 AM GMT
Sorry for Your Misunderstanding Mr.Vlad. The Comment about the Boring Site was directed toward the comments Above and Below My First Comment........... INSECURE ?

E J
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::casechaser
06/03/08 6:12 PM GMT
I have trouble understanding these threads. There seems to be a group who believe that comments should be critical,so they may grow as artists. Others prefer friendly correspondence between friends and peers. I wonder, why does criticism need to be negative? Is it some badge of courage? If it is my comment to leave, why does any third party care if I give a positive or a negative one? Oh, I understand group growth, I just do not believe that it is as important as what I am reading on these threads.
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::Skynet5
06/03/08 8:05 PM GMT
I think this is a great thread! I really appreciate good critiques, wether they come in a PM or on your upload's page. Its definitely the non-critique comments and the negative comments that get me mad.
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"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" -Optimus Prime
+regmar
06/03/08 8:50 PM GMT
The problem as always lies in the fact that art, by its very nature is an attempt to express ones feelings to others. When we critique an image the artist may mistakenly believe we are denigrating the feelings (s)he is trying to express. In fact critiques generally are applied to the medium rather than the message. We offer and request criticism in order to teach and learn better ways of expressing ourselves.

For those artists who may not feel - what - experienced enough? - there is always the "I don't know why, but it leaves me wanting more." type of criticism that eschews technicalities in favor of generalities. That's fine too.

This site is neither DeviantArt nor Facebook. We don't post here in order to sell our work, and we don't post here in order to make friends (though that seems to happen by itself). We post here to learn and teach, and we post here because we want to share our art with others.
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ж Regmar ж
::LynEve
06/04/08 2:28 AM GMT
"Do include one or more point that you particularly like about the image.
Do include one or more points that you don't like.
Do offer advice on how the image could be improved or how the author's skills could be improved.
Don't be afraid of hurting someone's feelings. As long as your review is mature and polite most people will love your attention.
Don't simply state "It's awesome" or "It sucks," such statements without elaboration are useless and waste space on the site. What's awesome to a 3 year old could be awful anyone else. You have to prove that your perspective is worth considering. The best way to do this is to back up your opinions with insightful suggestions for improvment.
Don't conduct private conversations between someone other than the author of the image. Use the Personal Message service or offtopic discussion forum instead."

These are the guidelines for giving a good review - I agree with all of it

BUT

yes there is always a but :)

I have difficulty in many cases with items 2 and 3. Very often there is nothing I dont like, and to try and name two would be simply nitpicking.
Giving advice as to how the artist could improve their skills would in some cases be like telling my grandmother how to suck eggs because most of them know far more than I will ever live long enough to learn.

I DO offer suggestions such has 'Did you consider . . . etc"
or "I would like to see this with . . . . etc"

I welcome and encourage suggestions on my own work and often learn a lot from a simple comment.
If it is more - a detailed instruction on how to achieve a better result - then that is fine too. Just as valuable to me are "Good shot" or "Nice work" - so long as that is an honest appraisal.

I think if members comnment ONLY when they have something instructive or constructive to say then comments would be few and far between and the whole concept of 'sharing' (as I see it) would be lost.

If someone has taken the time to view a picture of mine and leave a brief acknowledgement that is fine by me - that is what I uploaded it for - to share what I do.
If they choose to help and instruct me on various aspects that is also fine - how else would we learn anything.

To each his own - and in many cases example is the best teacher of all.



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The question is not what you look at, but what you see ~ Marcel Proust
.corngrowth
06/07/08 10:54 AM GMT
I agree with the wise words of Lyn and others above.
On the one hand one should realize that, in order to improve his/her photographic skills, that constructive and positive comment can be very helpful.
I gave, on the other hand, in the past some helpful comments (with simple instuctions how one could improve some minor shortcomings in the image like a tilted horizon), but received not only 'thank you' replies but (very) angry reactions as well, like this one: "How did you dare commenting on my work this way, watch and improve your own bad work before commenting on mine". Did me come to the conclusion that some people prefer simply a polite comment above a positive, constructive and honest one. This bad experience does me hesistate now to comment as it should be on the work of people which are unknown to me. Think I'll have to accept this reality.
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Cornelius was here! (lol) Click HERE to see his work!
.vlad421
06/12/08 4:37 AM GMT
" Sorry for Your Misunderstanding Mr.Vlad. The Comment about the Boring Site was directed toward the comments Above and Below My First Comment........... INSECURE ?

E J "

Yah buddy, nice edit job on ur original post.
we really need there to be an edit history...

so it seems there are people here who just want to express themselves, (which is cool, i can kinda understand that) and people who are here to improve their skills in whatever artistic field they are in, so if there was an icon that signified wether the user wanted constructive feedback or not (you could choose to have it on or not in your user cp) then the site could be functional for both of us, and we could all get along. if enough people think its a good iddea, maybe ill send a pm to caedes and ask him what he thinks about adding it to the site.
thoughts?
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::third_eye
06/12/08 11:16 AM GMT
There's a pretty well thought out guideline for offering critiques, as has been referenced above. If someone chooses to offer an in-depth critique, I as a recipient, am all the more happy to get them. Even the "nice picture" comments are pleasant, if not entirely informative.

What I, along with many of you, object to is the reactions of the relative few, who receive well intentioned, polite, and even friendly critiques, and are um... less than gracious. I know, first hand, how much work and time is involved in shooting and editing. I'm also taking into account the emotional attachment one might have to their work.

Having said that, people might need to be reminded that their posting an image in a public forum, where they know, in just about everyone's case, that someone somewhere will be offering an opinion on it.

So, my point is this. Do we really need a special icon to ward off contribution and participation by way of commenting and critiquing? I'd hope not. Instead I'd ask those with um, delicate sensitivies to re-examine their motivation for uploading, and perhaps, their expectations for input.

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Please, even if you don't visit my gallery, check out my "Faves".I've left them intact since day "1", and would like it if every image there got the attention they deserved.
::LynEve
06/12/08 11:29 AM GMT
Surely we can express ourselves and improve our skills simultaneously ?
It is hardly multi-tasking, even a male should be able to manage it. :)
Personally I think if people can not accept constructive feedback they should not be here.
It is sad that some members have been discouraged from giving their opinion due to lashbacks by the recipients.
People who just want to display their work without any advice or opinions on it should be subscribing to the type of site that is specifically for that purpose. There are plenty to choose from - but they need not expect to actually learn anything. I suspect the folk who do not welcome help and advice either publicly or by pm are the very ones who think they 'know everything' anyway.

:)
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The question is not what you look at, but what you see ~ Marcel Proust
.vlad421
06/12/08 10:09 PM GMT
Rob, Lyn, I totally agree. But as it is now, people just don't leave any negative feedback. At least most people.. I'm just trying to get more constructive crit. on my shots and i know that there are people here who are really good and i wish i could learn from them. so if an icon that says that im a beginner, dont worry i wont bite ure head off for giving me some advice, then i would definately use it.
I'm not defending those that are so insecure they cant handle anonymous peoples' opinions on their photography over the internet.. i wonder how these people survive in the real world. but unfortunatley they are here, and they are causing trouble for the rest of us. maybe only they should have an icon... maybe it could be a little baby face crying.
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.Illusionz
06/13/08 1:40 AM GMT
I personally see nothing wrong with constructive criticism (constructive being the key word) when it is directed at the images that I post. I enjoy learning and hope to become better through it. However, I often have a hard time offering criticism myself usually because, as Lyn mentioned, the artists are often more skilled than me. I believe that suggestions are terrific, but sometimes, if you don't see anything that needs comment, a bit of encouragemant can be just the thing.
P.S- Ha ha about the male thing :) Lyn...
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Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations?

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