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Ivan

+ppigeon
09/14/04 3:40 PM GMT
Seeing Ivan 1 from philcUK, don't you believe it's time for USA (and many other countries) to save fossil energy and finally sign the Kyoto agreements???
For example, the technology of the hydrogen cars is good now. We could reserve oil for the noble matters...
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"Violence is the last resort of the incompetent" (I. Asimov)

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::philcUK
09/14/04 3:47 PM GMT
I'd have to agree - storms like this are aggrevated by the warm seas that they travel over and those seas just keep getting warmer by the year. another nasty side effect being the permanent destruction of coral reefs that cannot survive such relatively rapid changes in the oceans temperature.
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"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
::JOHANNA
09/14/04 5:34 PM GMT
I have no words for this. I can just agree for 100% Pierre and Phil.
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Carpe diem.
::CaptainHero
09/14/04 6:00 PM GMT
Have to agree.

I notice Ivan let off Cuba lightly. Fidel Castro was quoted as saying that the storm had been 'courteous'.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
+Samatar
09/14/04 11:31 PM GMT
Of course, you are right Pierre. I am seriously considering getting a Prius as my next vehichle. But how does the tornado relate to this topic?
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
LiquidguitarJP
09/15/04 12:22 AM GMT
Agree pierre and Sam. ..and yeah what does it have to do with the hurricane?
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-Graceless intrusion... Are you sanctified in your judgment of me? -Someone else's fate We are deciding (abortion) -I can see much clearor now I that I'm blind -I used to think death was the end -John Petrucci ...†Carpe Diem†... My lonely image: Father and Son
d_spin_9
09/15/04 2:26 AM GMT
people think emmissions = CO2 = greenhouse gas = warming. however i've seen reliable studies done that conclude that the recent "global warming" are just part of a 300-400 year cycle. obviously stuff like dumping garbage, and toxins is damaging the enviroment, but i am inclined to believe that global warming i such a big issue to get so wrapped up in. howeve, better use of our oil would be nice because that means that we will have it longer
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The heavens declare the glory of God, the skies proclaim the work of His hands.
prismmagic
09/15/04 2:52 AM GMT
Yes I agree. We've had the technology for quit awhile now.
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Art is the perception of the creator. Meaning is the perception of the viewer. acceptance is the perception of society.
::philcUK
09/15/04 7:13 AM GMT
sam & liquid - see my post which explains how it's linked to the hurricane....
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"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
+ppigeon
09/15/04 8:53 AM GMT
Carl: it's too easy to believe the actual warming comes from a 300-400 cycle!
To buy SUV vehicles which consume enormously
To build houses with bad insulation, but with airco system
etc... are bad behaviors that we must change ...
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"Violence is the last resort of the incompetent" (I. Asimov)
trisbert
09/15/04 4:28 PM GMT
I believe that global warming is the other end of the ice age cycle. But we are definitely not helping matters with our greenhouse gasses.
I have insulated my house walls and ceilings so just one small heater is sufficient in winter and we don’t need air conditioning in summer. The savings in heating and cooling will eventually pay for the insulation. No one persons efforts will make much difference. However I believe that if everyone did something however small the cumulative effect would be enormous.
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There are three colours, Ten digits and seven notes, its what we do with them that’s important. Ruth Ross
::CaptainHero
09/15/04 9:41 PM GMT
I'm happy with my diesel car. I bought it deliberately because it doesn't guzzle fuel and the engine is so much better. I often fill up with bio-diesel (though not easy to get in UK) which is even lower than conventional diesel on things like CO² and sulphur dioxide, particulate emmisions, etc. Lifecycle emmisions on bio-diesel are much better too. It's got a higher cetane rating too and slightly better mpg, if memory serves. Shame that due to economies of scale and the government over here not giving it a decent tax break that it is no cheaper than normal diesel (and generally slightly more expensive).
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
+Samatar
09/16/04 12:02 AM GMT
Yeah, the Australian government is trying to introduce excise on biodiesel that will probably drive all the small time operators (who really wouldn't make much money out of it I imagine) out of business. Grrrrr.... greedy so and so's...
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
+camerahound
09/17/04 4:06 AM GMT
One thing we could do is gag all the politicians. Think how much hot air would be eliminated.
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"Success is getting what you like. Happiness is liking what you get." -anonymous
::noobguy
09/17/04 4:20 AM GMT
I second it.
why not start with bush =O

then we can move on to caedes.
i mean...
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The easiest way to miss a shot is to not venture far enough to find it.
d_spin_9
09/17/04 4:32 AM GMT
Caedes for President!
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The heavens declare the glory of God, the skies proclaim the work of His hands.
+ppigeon
09/17/04 6:40 AM GMT
Did you try LPG cars in your own countries?
In Europe, ± 5% of the cars are equipped. That decreases pollution, but not CO2.
The LPG is cheaper (± 0,5 $/L = 1/3 of the gasoline's price), but the transformation of the car remains expensive (± 2500 $)
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"Violence is the last resort of the incompetent" (I. Asimov)
+Samatar
09/17/04 1:15 PM GMT
I am dissapointed by the lack of diesel engine cars available here. In Europe I beleive they have some exellent diesel cars which outperform thier petrol equivelents; and of course with a diesel engine you can look at the option of biodiesel. I am considering a Peageot as an option for my next vehichle but they don't inport the diesel version. It's annoying...

Pierre, LPG is available at petrol stations here; I think it is quite costly to convert the vehichles but there must be a few around. One very good thing the Queensland governement has done is convert almost all the council buses to LPG. It may be slow, but we are finally starting to move forward I think (and hope).
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
+ppigeon
09/17/04 1:35 PM GMT
Diesel gives particules: very bad for health!!!
Constructors developped a 'Particules Filter' on the new diesel cars, but 99,99% of diesel vehicles (and trucks!) are not equiped actually. LPG cars are cleanest/
But all these cars (diesel, gasoline, LPG) use oil and product CO2
Hydrogen cars reject only water...
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"Violence is the last resort of the incompetent" (I. Asimov)
::CaptainHero
09/17/04 1:37 PM GMT
I had heard that LPG wasn't very good, but I don't know the details.

Sam, I am surprised they don't have many diesel cars in Australia - always thought of your country as being quite forward-thinking in environmental matters (am I getting confused with new Zealand?)

Mainland Europe makes some decent diesel cars - I have a Citroen. You'll have to import one yourself - Pierre will drive it down for you!
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
d_spin_9
09/17/04 2:44 PM GMT
ppigeon, i think you may be putting too much trust in hydrogen cars. the question you must ask is where did they get the hydrogen? i can almost guarantee you that most of it will still be from the combustion of hydrocarbons, therefore we are still releasing CO2 and alll that other stuff into the air. aswell, hydrogen cars must go through the reactions twice ie hydrocarbon -> hydrogen then in your car hydrogen -> energy. because there is always energy lost in a reaction, in the end hydrogen car's with H2 from hydrocarbon plants would be more inefficent and therefore emit more emissions than regular cars.
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The heavens declare the glory of God, the skies proclaim the work of His hands.
+ppigeon
09/17/04 10:16 PM GMT
Mmmh... I'm not a specialist, Carl. Do you want to look here. I saw many good things about it.
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"Violence is the last resort of the incompetent" (I. Asimov)
+Samatar
09/18/04 1:50 AM GMT
CaptainHero: Australia is one of the very few nations that refused to ratify the Kyoto protocol Pierre mentioned at the beginning. Unfortunately the environment is not a major concern of the current government. We are having an election here shortly too, so hopefully we will see this change shortly.

Pierre: Agree that diesel is far from perfect, but at least then you have the option of using biodiesel (recycled vegetable oil). Not so with petrol...
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
::CaptainHero
09/18/04 5:11 PM GMT
Sam: I had no idea it was so bad down-under!

Yes, diesel is far more efficient than petrol. With bio-diesel the particulate emmissions are lower and you are making it from a renewable resource (plants).

I read an article once that claimed to be able to power a car with water. The conversion process involved some sort of electroysis, I think, to convert the raw product to ortho-hydrogen (as opposed to para-hydrogen). Steam came out the exhaust, so the whole exhaust system had to be enamel-coated. I can't remember much else about the details. I think there was the option to run it as dual-fuel.

I've heard it said that various 'free energies' have been mothballed by the efforts of large petro-chemical corporations and some governments because of the potential effects on revenue and taxes. I don't know how true that is.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
+Samatar
09/19/04 12:29 AM GMT
It's not hard to believe that oil companies might have bought out scientists who were developing alternatives to fossil fuels. After all ten million dollars is small change to them; but if you offered it to someone who was looking at the prospect of many years of research with no garantee of any success or financial reward at the end, they would probably take it.
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
rustectrum03
09/19/04 6:46 AM GMT
Oil companies have been buying out more efficient gasoline engines as well...yet another reason the oil companies need to be broken up...they are a monopoly.

I hear you all say that gasoline engines are very pollutant while this is true the exhaust system in most new cars have ways of cutting down on the specific harmful chemicals...the catalytic converter for example. Propane itself is a clean burning fuel, but when you add in the improvements to the gasoline engine you only get a net efficiency increase of only 5 to 10% between itself and gas. Granted this is a large change if all cars were to change over, but doing this would take 10 to 20 years considering the change over with from gasoline tanks to propane holding tanks, dispensers, etc...by that time I see a better developed hydrogen or solar fuel cells for use. It just seems to be a good way of wasting money on an intermediate step that isn't much better than the original.
That being said, like Carl, I really don't believe much in the 'global warming' theory...I just don't think we have all that much control over our environment. If you know about all the different failsafes that our put...for example, if earth gets warm, ice melts which since ice reflects more heat back into the atmosphere than water, the atmosphere stays regulated at a certain temperture...and there are many more...it just doesn't seem that probable that we are the ones causing all the problems, especially when there was very little of a heat increase in the late 1800's or early 1900's when the industrial revolution went into full force. Also, there are studies that show that the sun has gotten warmer over the last five years. And also there is the theory that the earth's magnetic fields are naturally decreasing in a cycle that happens every 2000 years or so, this would cause light molecules like ozone to bleed out into space. The strongest area of instability for this phenomenon is the south pacific...exactly the place where both the ozone hole and most alot of weather instabilities are made...it seems like quite a coincidence...
That being said pollution is bad, especially that of water pollution in our freshwater lakes...however we have taken great steps to decreasing our pollutant activities across the developed world...the amount of progress we have made in the last 20 years is enormous, and with the improvements of technologies it will only get better. It is also one of the things I'd love to get to research when I get out of the college world and into the professional world. :)
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-->"When it is time to die, let us not discover that we never lived." --Henry David Thoreau
::CaptainHero
09/19/04 5:24 PM GMT
I'm sure I read somewhere that the earth's magnetic poles switch polarity every so often. Once again though, I forget the details...
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
trisbert
09/20/04 5:54 AM GMT
The magnetic poles are thought to reverse every 750,000 years or so. An area in South Africa has pole reversal now which may be a sign that reversal has started. However its a slow process and is unlikely to affect us in our lifetimes.
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There are three colours, Ten digits and seven notes, its what we do with them that’s important. Ruth Ross
rustectrum03
09/20/04 6:21 AM GMT
The 2000 year number was actually a minor anomaly, the last 'definite' shift was ~12,000 years ago...sorry about that
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-->"When it is time to die, let us not discover that we never lived." --Henry David Thoreau
trisbert
09/20/04 11:25 AM GMT
Not to worry, whats a few thousand years between friends:-)
Global polarity isn’t our immediate problem, Pollution is here and now. I have no doubt that Mother Nature will correct the damage we cause eventually (I dread to think how). I think we can make life more comfortable for ourselves, our children and their children if we all take a few steps now. Like better insulation, cleaner more efficient fuel systems etc.
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There are three colours, Ten digits and seven notes, its what we do with them that’s important. Ruth Ross
+ppigeon
09/20/04 11:44 AM GMT
Agree Robert. Mother Nature has shown its own limits to correct Human's damages.
It's too easy to defer that on the future generations...
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"Violence is the last resort of the incompetent" (I. Asimov)

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