Thinking about the new nomination and voting process for the CAC/Perms. Is there any way (Software wise.) to make it mandatory for someone voting on a nominated image to make a comment on the photo? Just a thought. If someone votes yes or no, which the mods will obviously know, and that vote can be measured against what the voter SAYS about the image and what the Mods consider is true about the image, that might make the process of weighing "fair and consistent" voting patterns a bit more straight forward. It would also mean that each image nominated would have a series of hopefully thoughtful critiques under it. Maybe also it would encourage voters to really think about their vote because they are also having to demonstrate that they have thought, in words, under the image. The artist may not know that comment is about the voters voting but the mods will. Perhaps more people, who can't be bothered really thinking about their vote, will use the abstain button (Because they won't have anything to say if they haven't really thought about the image and if they do consistently just say "I like this" the mods can fairly weight their voting framework.) and perhaps this might increase the substantive nature of the consideration given to the decision by those who DO vote. It might also mean there would be a slow accumulation of learned wisdom shared in the comments under Perm Gallery images that might help people understand what it is they are seeing. WHY it works, not just "that" it works. Education, you know.

A lot of artists wouldn't handle the "no" votes and comments very well. Now you don't know if your image is being voted on unless it's accepted.
Forcing CAC members to comment would pressure them to either vote "yes" because they don't want to write negative comments and get flamed, or abstain altogether.
Thoughtful critiques are good, I can't get enough of them on my images, but they can't be forced.

Hi Hannah, my suggestion did not say that a person voting no had to say "I'm voting no because...". My suggestion does not require a voter to indicate which way they voted, only the mods would know that. A voter would make a critique, indicating (To the mods only.) they had put some thought into the image before voting on it. No need for that critique to be negative, indeed, hard to imagine an image without some positives in it, being nominated in the first place. My suggestion would not force anyone to vote, anyone unwilling to make a comment can abstain, just as we can abstain from voting on an image now. I've been here 3 years (This time.) and regularly make balanced critiques, never once been flamed for it, not so common an occurrence here. The website encourages thoughtful critiques, even to the point of regularly sending members to give critiques to images they would not normally comment on. My suggestion is entirely consistent with that value - to encourage thoughtful comments. The new voting system for the CAC includes mod supervision to identify voters who are doing a fair and consistent job, my suggestion is consistent with that process as well, making it a bit easier for the modes to empirically measure the relationship between a voters voting and their stated analysis. Additionally my suggestion would encourage voters to put into words their accumulated wisdom, experience and insights, making it more likely other people, on reading those critiques, will add to their own storehouse of knowledge. As to people getting no votes, we all get them all the time. How many images here have a c index of 100? We all get no's with every image we put in the vb, we all deal with it pretty well as a general rule.

An alternative path, if there was great concern about people commenting on CAC nominated images and the artists getting all (unaccountably) bruised and battered, would be for my proposed linking of comments and voting power to occur, but with the change that their comments don't go on the image, they go the mods only. So a CAC voter would have to say to the mods why they voted the way they voted, again, if they cannot articulate thought thru reasons why they think an image should be in the Perm gallery, should they be voting on that image at all? If they are normally disinclined to think it thru, the very process of having to write down some thoughts, might actually get them to looking and thinking critically, which will only enhance their own photographic or artistic skills. In this version of my idea the rest of us on the website miss out on the wisdom and insights but there would still be an accumulation of more voters who think about what makes a great image, thus raising the overall level of insight and skills in the community.

You have to remember that everyone on here is a volunteer, CAC and mods.
Giving people a choice between commenting publicly and abstaining, I think the majority would abstain - or just ignore the art council notices.
Just the mods seeing the comments wouldn't discourage people as much, but then the mods would have more work.

Perhaps you are correct Hannah, perhaps the majority would abstain from voting, that's not necessarily a bad thing. It depends on what is valued most, everyone feeling comfy or the website standards being developed and raised. You and I differ on our interpretation of how easily people are offended or discouraged. I agree that my altered version would give the mods more work and I consider that a disadvantage.

I have to agree with Hannah with regards to how people are easily offended or discouraged.. I have witnessed many members (including myself) who have given helpful advice only to be abused either on the image itself or very abusive PM's which is why members hold back advice..

as for making mandatory leaving comments on images I don't see how that will make a difference on the voting.. the mods are monitoring all members of the CAC and the images voted on i'm sure they can pick out the members who are voting in lesser quality images.

Ok, even accepting that a sad portion of adults are so underdeveloped or damaged that a few honest analytical comments from a stranger about an image they freely presented for comments and votes can get them all out of shape. Does that mean the ethical response is to cater to that situation or to set up systems that invite growth and don't reward personal mediocrity of conduct? I know, hardly the level of consideration one expects on a forum on a photo website. :) I'm doing an ethics course, it's on my mind.

I like the idea of making voting images into the main galleries more of a responsibility (as members should realise it is a more important duty than voting for the c-index) but perhaps commenting on every image is a bit much to ask... maybe a mandatory comment on an average of say, one in every ten images, might have similar results?

Hmmm, I guess any movement in "that" direction can be considered a positive development, how about we barter? :) Mandatory public comment on half the CAC you vote on.

Well it's not up to me... just providing my own opinion on the idea.

Twas a joke Sam, just a little horseplay.

(*hands both; Mikel and Sam ... a cup of decaf*)

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(*places a whoopee cushion on each of their respective chairs ...*)

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Sits down.
Blaaggghhhggghghghghgghghggggghhhhhhh.