A terrifying subject to many and a farce to many others. What are you thoughts and comments on this controversial subject?
I will make my position known later. May you fare well.

And that is your belief, and it is your right to believe it. I respect that right, and I ask you to respect mine to hold different beliefs from you.

In this time, you can BELIEVE, but not KNOW which of us is more correct in our views. I ask you to simply acknowledge a differing point of view and not try to convert me so hard to your belief that you do not hear mine.

I hear your belief. But I also know it is wrong. And you would admit, that if I believe what I believe, for me not to try to show you the "Truth" as I see it, would be the height of cowardice and evil. If I "Know" you are going to Hell, and don't try to warn you away from it as best I can, How terribly cowardly and evil am I?

You keep enforcing your beliefs...if someone doesn't believe it...leave it at that! It won't be considered a sin!

Now...as you seem to "Know" as you say, saying that Cat is wrong...what made god? another god?

No… you BELIEVE it is wrong. I could be equally dogmatic and tell you that I "KNOW" your belief is wrong.

If I ask you to respect my views, then it is for you to back away, and either A) allow me to go hell in my own way as per my own wish, or B) ask me if I am willing to continue to debate the issue, but then you must be open to considering that some of my views may be correct and some of yours may be wrong.

Otherwise I have no wish to be lectured by someone who refuses to be open to such a possibility.

Scratch that. I see now (judging by what was posted while I was typing this) that I am wasting my time.

If you already know everything, then this is a pointless debate.

Do you know Andrew that no man has seen God and lived? Moses was shielded by God as He passed by him and Lot's wife was told not to look back as God destroyed Sodom and Gammorah and she was turned to a pillar of salt because she did look back. What did she see? She saw Him that was in the process of that destruction...God.

God has shown himself, time and time again. He even came to earth in Human form, and died in order to save us from a certain doom of an eternity in Hell. AND THEN : -] To top that off, He rose from the dead three days later!! He broke satan's power over Hell and death! He made a way so that we can go to Heaven.

He also shows Himself in his handiwork. He shows himself in the things he created. If you look at how creation, A.K.A. Nature, works, from a mollecular level up, it works like the worlds most well oiled, masterfully designed machine. And if you continue to look, there is evidence that it shouldn't even be able to hold itself together, that all of the atoms and such should go flying apart, if not for some unseen, scientifically unproven force holding it all together, A.K.A. God.

And Samatar and Animaniactoo, So far as I know, this forum is for the discussion of God, and Sin, and the like. You had the choice of coming on here, and reading what we say, and either. . .

A: Listening to it, and debating it, and learning from it.

Or

B: Listen to it, get extremely angry (Convicted by your sin), rant and rave and and then say, "Well, I can't come up with any decent arguements against this, so I'm taking my ball and leaving."

And +Samatar, I do not know everything. But God, (Since He made everything) does. He wrote everything in His word the Bible. I do not know everything, because God reveals his word to us a little at a time, showing us the truths we need to see as we need to see them, because His word is a living word.

I trust it, just as I would trust an instruction manual written for a car, if it were expertly written by the one who made it.

I posted here, but I was referring to posts across many threads. And no, I have plenty of decent arguments, but I see no point in using my time and energy to debate them with someone who will not acknowledge that someone else's DIFFERING point of view may be correct.

I wish you luck, and hope that your life works out for you exactly as you believe that it will.

Caiden, normally I would not enter a discussion like this, knowing full well the arguments it would provoke but as one who also believes in God and has done a fair amount of Bible study in my day, I would just like to add a few words of wisdom, if I may...tolerance, patience, freedom to choose, just to name a few...while I can appreciate your concern for others and want to share 'the truth' as you perceive it, I can't entirely agree with your methods...you are coming across as though you are trying to ram this down everyones' throat and no one will listen or appreciate that...nor can you really 'sit in judgement' of others and tell them they will burn in Hell if they don't believe exactly as you do...look at how many different denominations there are all under the same umbrella of Christianity but all with differing views...God judges the heart and there are a good many people who regularly polish the church pews with their behinds but don't practise what they preach, if you get my meaning...even in Jesus' day there were the Pharisees who were constantly criticizing the people and Jesus ended up having to set them straight on a few of their own deficiencies...do you recall the Bible verse, "He without sin cast the first stone"...all I'm saying is that while it is fine to 'share' your beliefs and knowledge, you can't realistically expect everyone to believe the same things and really can't 'debate' the issue either without ending up arguing, especially in an arena such as this where there are people from all over the world from very different backgrounds, cultures, etc....if anyone really wants to take a good honest look at Christianity and the Bible, they can explore these things for themselves...if they don't, no amount of preaching is going to do anyone any good.:Pat.

I am not judging people by my own knowledge or my own beliefs. I let God do that through His Living Word the Bible.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous. No Not One.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 10:9, 10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth, the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart, man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

1st Corinthians 1:18,23,24


For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish, foolishness: But unto us which are saved, it is the power of God.

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

But uto them which are called, Both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

I know all those verses too, Caiden, and I happen to believe them too...but I think it would also be safe to say that all the people above who do not believe in the Bible, don't believe they are perfect or haven't done some things wrong in their lives...all I am saying is that you can't force people to believe...and there is also something to be said for timing too...once there was a time when I didn't care alot for what the Bible had to say...then one day I started to pay attention...not because of any fire and brimstone either...through intellect and a strong desire to learn for myself.:Pat.

In responce,

1st Corinthians 2:4,5

And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

I would only respond by saying, that sharing God's love rather than provoking anger or fear would likely be of greater benefit...and where man's knowledge is concerned, I happen to believe that one doesn't have to shelve their intellect to believe in the Bible...more and more there is scientific evidence in support of the Bible...so sometimes, where some are concerned, this is a good starting point for them to look at the words in the Bible more seriously and in time, perhaps they will be given more 'light'.:Pat.

The interesting thing about this is that Christianity (although often poorly misrepresented) is the only religion that offers peace. How likely is the U.S. to convert to Islam when the only message we hear from them is that we should be eradicated? Christians, on the other hand, are letting them know that we can forgive them for, in the extreme, planning specific missions to remove us, or in the average case, being poor Muslims for not planning to remove us. I have several Turkish friends that are all Islamic, and they don't despise me or my family, but they say they are doing Alah a disservice by being friends. They have directly said they are not good Muslims. Wouldn't a religion where we are allowed to be friends with each other be more appealing? Doesn't God suddenly sound more appealing?

-I apologize for my interesting word choice in areas...I have the most limiting internet protection I have ever seen. :-D

Who knows, maybe I'm just fanning the flames of discention here... but....

For those who like to quote the bible and such... Which Bible are you using as the "Gosple"? You do realize that the "Good Book" in our modern world, probably isn't the same one that was written all those many years ago. How many translations has it gone through, from one language to another? During those translations, how much "drift" has there been in the meaning of the words? For example, I can't quote the passage, but it goes something like "Thou shall not suffer a witch to live". You do realise, in older translations of the Bible, that very passage translated as "Thou shall not suffer a poisoner to live". Now... just when did God change his mind from it being a poisoner to a witch? The point I'm trying to make is, just how much of the original scriptures have really survived to our modern day? And, as far of that "drift" I mentioned, how much of that is man made, all in the name of some holy cause, as in... oh... the Crusades?

well the bulk of the texts used in todays bibles were rewritten by a Catholic Pope and his secretary in the middle ages and as you pointed out - the Bible has been through many reincarnations itself since its inception.

The Catholic church has made many perversions of the Bible. Because the Catholic Hierarchy has been only interested in keeping people under it's control.
The catholic church has out-lawed the reading of the Bible by common people several times, because when the common people read it, they saw that the Catholic Church was just trying to cow them, and that many things the church told them, are not in the Bible.

But through the years, God preserved His words from change. He kept them, had them copied by people who were only interested in preserving the original meanings, and from those copies, came the Textus Receptus. It was attacked by Catholicism and other cults time and time again, but it managed to escape just barely every time, unperverted and un-touched by the Catholic Attacks.
Then, the 1611 King James Bible was created, at the heighth of the English Language. It was translated, (Not interpreted) from the Textus Receptus, the texts which had been universally excepted by true christians since their first writings at the hands of the prophets and apostles.

God has promised to preserve His Words Exactly. Not one jot or tittle (the smallest marks) will pass from God's word.

it's a physical impossibility to maintain a scriptures integrity through various translations due to the diversity and changing nature of languages and inflections in those languages.

The King James Bible is actually translated from the Bishops Bible of 1568 and the earlier ‘Great Bible’. It was commissioned as a rival to the Geneva Bible and was printed originally with this note on the inside cover:

"THE HOLY BIBLE, Conteyning the Old Testament, and the New: Newly Translated out of the Original tongues: & with the former Translations diligently compared and revised, by his Majesties Special Commandment. Appointed to be read in Churches. Imprinted at London by Robert Barker, Printer to the Kings most Excellent Majestie. ANNO DOM. 1611."

It was subsequently revised 4 years later by Corpus Christi College President, John Reynolds. Fifteen rules were laid out to the translators the primary one being:

‘The ordinary Bible read in the Church, commonly called the Bishops Bible, to be followed, and as little altered as the Truth of the original will permit.’

Nothing is impossible for those who put their trust in God. The King James version was translated from the good Texts, that were universally excepted by true Christisans, in order to provide a Bible for people to read, in order to glorify God.

Many other translations these days have been Interpreted from other texts from Alexandria, and other such places, that had been corrupted by Catholicism. And they were Interpreted for the purpose of glorifying man, and those who Interpreted them thought they knew more than God, giving themselves more power and authority than God.

Well... I did a quick search on the Textus Receptus, and here is what I found... LINKIES. On the surface... even this text went through a few versions.

The truth is there are countless version of the KJV - most in use in America today were heavily revised as recently as 1901. As far as I am aware the most authentic translations of the original scriptures still available in print are the Septuagint dating back to 200BC for Old Testament books and the Vulgate from 382AD for both books. Both of these publications are still available today.

It's threads like this that shouldn't even be allowed....it's all arguments....

im trying to steer it away from that but yes, they usually end up like that :-)

It wasn't meant to be an arguement. Somone put up a thread, in order to discuss God.


Again, anyone who is offended by the mention of God, or doesn't like the discussion of Him, Does not have to read the thread. It is a conscious choice, and their decision.

And what do you mean by "Threads like this" just out of curiousity.

I believe it is referring to theological discussions in general that always seam to get bogged down in dogma when they could be kept as open and lively debate. It has happened many times here before regrettably which is why you will find so many people jaded by it.

*twiddles*

Okay, open and lively debate. How do you suggest it has become an unopen and unlively debate? Because people who have guts, and strong arguements on the side that God exists have shown up, and won't back down from their beliefs? Does that make it an unopen arguement?

If I were to get on a thread about Evolution, or atheism, and say the same thing, that it had become a closed debate, and unlively, because the Atheists and evolutionists refused to consider the idea that there might be a God, or that Creationism is a valid Scientific option, I would be laughed off of the sight.

im not saying it has gone that way - just hopeful that it doesnt.

Earlier I had something I said in response to something +Samatar said. After I put it up, he became quite flustered, and ran away. I was wondering what you all might think of it. So I'll copy and paste it.

In granite, there are small pieces of a radioactive substance called, (I believe) Polonium. And around the small pieces of Polonium, there are what is commonly called, "Radio Halos". Radio Halo's are caused when a substance such as rock hardens around a radioactive substance such as that.

Here's the thing though. . . Polonium only has a half-life (Radio-Active life) of I believe either 3 seconds or 30 seconds. Either way, that means that granite would have needed to be formed in it's current state (The way it is now), in less than a minute, for those Radio-Halo's to be present.

The origin of the world is a mystery to those who choose not to believe in the One True God. If you believe in God, you have a book, written by Him, (Who was there when the earth was made). A book that said the earth was round when "Scientists" were still claiming it was flat. The Bible.

Proclaiming themselves to be wise, they became fools. People claim Christians are intolerant, and unscientific, but most atheists don't really care what they believe, as long as they aren't called to believe in God.

And so far as I know, in order for something to be scientific, it has to be able to be tested in a laboratory, or observable in nature. Where are the lab tests showing matter forming out of nothing? Where are the lab tests showing an explosion actually creating a working, perfectly running, masterfully designed swiss watch? For that is what our earth and solar system are

lol @ Samatar got flustered and ran away. If that's how you choose to perceive it.

edit: I apologize, I should not have joined back in, please ignore.

It was a valid arguement, with scientific merit. It has many good questions that need answering.
Besides, Samatar seemed more than willing to bat the topic back at me when he percieved me as an ignorant yokel. Then when I put up that post, he suddenly became too intillectual to waste time arguing about something as silly as "Religion".

Last time I checked Granite - like most other things - can easily be irradiated so any radioactive isotopes found in it aren’t necessarily there from its original state.

Polonium is a highly radioactive element that can be airborne and has a half life of 139 days. The half-life of a quantity subject to exponential decay is the time required for the quantity to fall to half of its initial value. It never really goes away it just diminishes.

radiation has a nasty habit of altering states of the things it touches....

I got this information from a book that I have at home, and I am currently at college right now, and don't have the book with me. I'll be heading home in a few days. Allow me some time to check out what you are saying, if only to make sure your not just throwing out jargon and gobbeldygook to confuse the issue. (Not that I'm saying you'd do any such thing intentionally.)

But of course - when you look into polonium - you will also discover it emits vast amounts of heat as a side effect of its decay cycle - approximately six hundred degrees Celsius - sufficient to alter the state of rock which starts to liquefy at around that temperature.

Radioactivity is not something I think scientists have known about long enough to use as sufficient evidence for something as debatable as God vs. Chance. Scientists have known about radiation for about 60+ years, correct? So in theory, scientists could be completely off-base when it comes to radioactive dating methods, because there is no way to sufficiently check the accuracy of said methods, except wait hundreds of years, which scientists aren't going to do. How are we even sure that half-life periods are what they are?

True Timmy...but a book written how many centuries ago...you can't just trust it either...someone could've just written something to fool the gullibles to take control of whatever he wanted...religion has always been a way to control as metioned somewhere above.

I thought there needed to be some clarification on translations, but I feel bad for reverting the thread back. I have not backed any of it up with dates or facts - I learned it through looking at facts, but it is super tough to remember all those. I will do the research to prove certain things if you request, but here goes:

Yes, all we have to go off of are translations, and no, that is not cool. The best way to combat this is to stick with the translation that is most accurate word-for-word. Personally, I am a fan of the New American Standard Bible. Not only is it the most accurate in terms of translatable words, but it doesn't make us take it without question. Behind all the key words (not things like articles or super simple stuff), there is a number, which corresponds to the Strongs Dictionary in the back, with thousands of Hebrew and Greek words in the back. When I look at a word in context, I can go back to the original spelling, pronunciation, and other common uses to see what exactly is being said. No translation is perfect, but some are far better than others (for example, the Message Bible is a paraphrase of a pharaphrase, so don't be looking for supernatural insight there). The NASB is great for a litteral study Bible and the NIV is also very good for a standard study Bible.

The translators are doing the best they can with what they have. Often, that is more limited by skills and cultural information than the text they are translating from. Our biggest question is how accurate stuff can be when it was written in year A, but our copy is from year W. Archaeologists are continually finding other versions written a couple hundred years before or after the versions we already have, and many of these are nearly identical. It is very encouraging to find another copy of Isaiah with 98% accuracy to the original, especially when that 2% variation is due to city names, which changed as did the time. The fact that the rest remained the same shows that it was preserved and copied well by those who had it during that time.

Even if we were able to read Hebrew as we do our native tongue, we would still miss out on much of what the Bible has to say simply because we do not live in the places written about during the time of the writing. There is so much cultural and geographical information that is lost to us and we simply don't understand. There is a lot in the Bible that was written between the lines, and I am not referring to specific lettering patterns that reveal secrets in code (they may exist or may not, I have not studied those indepth). There is so much more to learn from heroic stories, applicable examples, and simple lessons, but we miss it all because we fail to study indepth. Ray VanderLann's website offers a lot in its article section.

Back to translations, E-Sword is a program for the computer that offers all of the most common translations and many that are not. Several versions have the option of appearing with or without links to dictionaries containing the actual words. (When it links every single word, it is difficult to read it, so that is why they offer it without.) You can download a gimped version from their website, but if anyone is interested, I can mail you a cd with the full version on it. Depending on where you live, it could be expensive to ship, so I hope you will help me out if that is the case.

In regard to caiden mentioning God showing Himself, He did in the person of Jesus Christ..that man could bear. Jesus was and is God in the flesh which is a brilliant concept.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God the Father is another story, His glory more than a mortal man could bear. At Armageddon (The Day of the Lord) NOT a battle of men vs. men but God cleaning house...the antichrist and his minions. Then the world (what's left) will see God in all His Glory and it will be over. Which side will you be on if you are here?

How disparaging to think how many people will be on the wrong side!

Ooo... this should be good... define "The wrong side."

(Sorry, couldn't help myself.)

The side of the AntiChrist. In Armegeddon, the believers will side off with the non-believers in a final war. The side of God will prevail. So it is sad to think how many people will be on the wrong side when the time comes.

Nothing turns me off to Christianity more than self-important, do-gooders who feel compelled to tell me where I'm going and how to live my life the "right" way. Thanks for making sure that I will never attend church.
-Rob

Amen to that, brother! ;-)

Than groo, you are reading what we say, and letting anger blind you to the truth. We are not saying that we are more important than you, or that you are living your life wrong.

No matter how you live your life, it wouldn't make a difference. If you were the nicest, friendliest, most generous guy on the earth, giving all of your substance to widows and orphans, donating to charities constantly, It would not matter.

The only difference between A True Christian, and other people, is that They have accepted Jesus Christ into their hearts. They are still sinners, and they still do bad things, but they have admitted their guilt to God, and asked Him to save them from their sins.

Attending church doesn't do anything either. If someone attended church their whole life, did all kinds of good things, and never accepted Jesus Christ as their Saviour, it wouldn't mean a thing.

It says in the Bible that, at the Great White Throne Judgement, many will say to God, "Lord Lord, did we not many good works in thy name?" And God will say, "I never knew you."

I agree. Those who find comfort in archaic beliefs and traditions are deluding themselves, but it keeps them happy and allows them to cope with the world. However it does get rather annoying when said practitioners find the need to impose their delusions on clear-thinking individuals. What personally irks me is parents misleading their children from an early age by using some farsical god who smites all those who disobey his whim, which of course, mainly consists of mindlessly obeying ones parents withoutquestion. This practice creates weak-minded, malleable individuals who are subservient to the whim of an unseen god whose 'word' is interpreted by humans who have their own beleifs and values.

Uhm ... since when was it ok to judge others?

!!!! And I direct this to those that claim to be righteous and on the 'right' side of God !!!!

Not your function or duty, as I understand your 'word.'

Hypocrisy. And as you say, blasphemous in the eyes of your GOD, that you deem yourselves worthy to judge me or others.

Only GOD can judge, correct?!?!

Your specious arguments get under my skin.

Tell me, I want to be on the 'right side' ... soooo, from this minute forward what should I do? Tell me exactly what it is that you are doing to be so righteous, and so GODLY. Tell me of the example that you set as a family member, as a neighbour, as a person in your community ... as someone on this site.

Tell me what makes you so frickin' righteous in your actions and give me concrete examples of those actions and WORDS.

*steps back in for a moment*

Caiden - When you state such things as fact, rather than saying "This is what I believe and I would like to discuss it with you", you will always make people feel attacked. You are denying them their right to believe something different than you.

I do not hold the same beliefs as you do, but I'm also not going to tell you that my way is the only way to believe. And in my book, any religion which says "If you do not live by our theology and ethics you are damned" is not one I want to be part of. Unfortunately, that includes most organized religions.

While I admire your faith, I do not believe that I will be damned to live in a burning fiery pit for all eternity because I CHOOSE through research and life experience to believe something different than you do.

Tim - Radiation dating can be used as a scale by measuring the half-lifes of items that have known dates or approximate dates. Dishes that were stamped by the maker 150 years ago. Buildings known to have been built approximately 300 years ago through records. By taking a cross sampling of as many items as possible over as long a known time scale as you can, you arrive @ a working mathematical equation.

*steps back out*

Applauds for Cat!
I believe that all we need to do is try to be good over evil......
AND, the self-righteous will all someday be surprised when they find that we all.....BUDHISTS, JEHOVAH WITNESSES, CHRISTIANS, DRUIDS, PAGANS, ATHEISTS, etc-etc all end up as EQUALS. DEAD or SPIRIT FORMS, LOVED BY A GOD WHO DID NOT CARE WHAT YOU CALLED HIM /HER/ IT, as long as we were all loving and good as we could be!

I have been avoiding this for the last couple of days because I loathe these kind of arguments. You can all very kindly & in your very P.C. way call it a debate, but let's call a spade a spade kiddies.
This thread is like a violent, blood soaked, horrendous car accident on the freeway, you know it's there, there's nothing you can do, but you slow down & look anyway. Then you find yourself drawn into the madness.
Now...before I go any further, let's get the labels out of the way, shall we ? I am a Christian, a Presbyterian to be exact. I'm also a registered Republican....get over it. That being said, I'm also a free thinking open minded individual & I absolutely cannot stand all the narrow mindedness you're spouting Caiden. Yes, I believe in God & Jesus. Because I was taught to, from an early age. No, I don't believe that I have to go to God's house to pray. No I don't say nightly or morning prayers or bless my food before I eat.
What I, Lauren, have developed as a belief system is rather simple, I believe in a Greater Good, I also believe this Greater Good is Love. As John Lennon once said, " All we need is love " & I find that to be very true. I also believe, & I stated this one other time on another thread somewhere, that ALL religions are but facets of the same jewel.
I find your attacks on the Catholic Church to be both appalling & unnecessary, certainly, by your standards unChristian.
Please stop trying to force others to your point of view. For the record, I agree with Terri & Cat. And Sam. And Les. And Rob. And Matt.

*makes the sign of the cross*
*says aghastly: "You're a REPUBLICAN?!?"*
*horrified look*

Does this mean we're not friends anymore ? *plainatively*

I may not agree with all that is stated on this thread, and I certainly don't. My basic premise for not liking some of the other beliefs is how some belief systems, such as Darwinism, Evolutionism, et cetera, can lead to the thought that a person isn't accountable for their actions. I'm free to do what ever I want, no matter what happens. This kind of thinking leads to the lower grades, poorer behavior, higher crime, and such related things that this Generation has higher than any previous. Regardless of what other people say to me, I have a standard of right, the Bible. I don't think some people understand how much of the modern world is directly out of the Bible. Some examples: 7 day week, and most of the otherwise undefined definite rights/wrongs. Christianity isn't tollerant, I'll be the first to admit this. But Christianity isn't tolerant because we don't accept what isn't good and right. I don't believe that homosexuality is a right. I'll take the rap for it. I believe in a book that is over 4000 years old, has always been in print, and that many people, frankly, despise. I've heard of no book, no matter how old, that has been re-written just to fool the gullible. If I seem intolerant, I'll say this: NO MATTER HOW TOLERANT YOU ARE YOU AREN'T TOLERANT OF CHRISTIANITY.

Actually I believe that I am entirely accountable and responsible for my own actions. No matter what in my background or makeup may have caused me to do them, they are mine and I must live with them. I also believe that pretty much anything is ok as long as it does not hurt myself, someone else, or the area where it happens. It is only when something is hurtful that I believe it to be wrong.

I do not believe that lower grades, poorer behavior and higher crime are indicators of people believing in Darwinism and Evolutionism rather than a religion. Look @ the world 200 years ago and 300 years ago when religious belief was even more widespread than it is today.

Tim - believe it or not, I am tolerant of not just Christianity, but I am tolerant of almost every belief system I have come across. What I am not tolerant of is people baldly stating that I am wrong in my belief and until I accept THEIR way of thinking I will always be wrong. I believe there are good and bad aspects to almost all religions.

For example: Judaism - 1) You cannot be forgiven by God until you have asked for forgiveness from the person you have sinned against, and attempted to make it right. 2) You can break almost any law in the Torah (Talmud) as long as it is to save a human life. Both of those are good things in my book. However: The treatment of women among many of the orthodox sects which is done according to the Torah (women may not be religious leaders, women are lower in the eyes of God, and in many religious observances are separated from the men), is a bad thing.

All of the well-established religions are living by texts which were written (handed down if you prefer) during a different political and sociological era, and while many things hold true for modern day times, there are many which do not.

btw Lauren… we'll just have to agree to disagree 8•P

That's okay honey, I registered at 18 cuz my father took me to register & told me how.....I vote my conscience, irregardless

At least, I hope that's what you mean ?

I'm a communist! who cares! LOL!

<<<hugs>>>

I'm REPUBLICAN TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! :)
And I am a heterosexual female that totally believes GAYS are made by same God that made me! I HATE----HATE forums, but I have to say that I believe NOBODY chooses their sexual orientation....and regardless of whether homosexual or heterosexual, people are PEOPLE, and SHOULD NEVER be labeled by their sexual preference or denied rights because of them {UNLESS IT IS PEDOPHILIC OR BEASTIALITY----which would include liking Rosie O'Donnell } hehehehe
But who cares what I think?
I do! I love PEOPLE who love others....and KINDNESS, not JUDGEMENTAL, SELF-RIGHTEOUS, RACIST { stops here to avoid using the word a-----e}. :)
HUGS-N-LOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

purmusic I am applauding your comment and am behind you 100%.


I also wanted to mention something else, just to get my fingerprints all over this thread too... Up above a little ways cgImagery quoted the following... "True Timmy...but a book written how many centuries ago...you can't just trust it either...someone could've just written something to fool the gullibles to take control of whatever he wanted...religion has always been a way to control as metioned somewhere above."

I believe this original comment was directed towards a scientific book? (If not, then disregard my post) But in my eyes this comment can also be directed towards the bible/holy book. Who is to say this book was not written by a bunch of guys around a campfire who were bored off their rockers and simply wanted to write something amusing for their kids back home.

Now that I think of it, I could go out and get a nice leather binding and write my own book of happy verses. Maybe in a while it will be the new bible and people will be beliving in me and all that I did as the all powerful giant invisible person in the sky.

Don't worry. It's been dis-reguarded. That comment was about the Bible. Read a few ways up. I wrote this in reply to Maven.....


But a few years ago, people thought Sodomy (AKA Homosexuality) was on the same level with Pedophilia and Bestiality. When did it change?

If it is bad to judge someone because their homosexual, how is it bad to judge someone who is pedophilic or bestial? As long as the two parties are consenting, and no one is "Getting Hurt", how do you define it as wrong?

It is because the children might have been coerced that it was okay before they know the difference between right and wrong?

Than how is it different than Sodomy. Children have it pushed and shoved down their throats at public school, before their normal sexual drives have kicked in, when girls still think boys are immature and disgusting, and boys think girls have cooties.

*ponders that the thread shows what is wrong with religion*

If anyone has an actual photo I would enjoy looking at, please post! Merci.think I'll post my own! A valid and knowable diversion.let's debate that!

Caiden: WHO considered homosexuality in the same basket with pedophila or bestiality?
Do you have written reference to that somewhere?
I think the people who are homophobic are the ones that are afraid because they have felt the urges themselves, so striking out against what they fear is a self defense mechanism.
Furthermore....re: bestiality / does the horse, sheep, etc need to thump foot one or twiced for yes?
Re: pedophilia
Let anybody interested in that particular "hobby" or whatever you wanna call it, and
let it be any child I know or love....or anyone else's child that somehow I could be near enough to protect....and the pedophile will need to call upon every GOD in EVERY book they have and only hope that prayer and police would save them from me.

Please please please shoot this with a really BIG Elephant Gun !

I don't care if it goes to the elephant graveyard...but
this kind of forum only spurs debate, hate and nobody will ever be able to force
anyone else to think and believe as THEY do....
and sorry....I hate -HATE....and I think when you use religion to attack GAYS, Not that-Tim was necessarily attacking, but it opened his viewpoint on Gays and RIGHT/WRONG, so therefore...I expresed MINE. And so one and so on......

I believe the difference is the question of "informed consent". How does a child or an animal make this consent?

Children are exposed to homosexuality as they are to love, tolerance, violence, racism, and every other topic in the world. There is nothing that forces them to do anything about any of these until they are ready unless someone takes that ability away from them - either by physical force, or by being so dogmatic they do not allow the child to learn and think for themselves on these subjects.

Homosexuality is generally wrong to people of religious backgrounds because of the procreation angle, and the wasting of *ponders how to say this tactfully* the possible future generation. According to Father Andrew M Greeley a widely respected Catholic Priest, if you go by this standard, than self-gratification is only a sin for a man, because a woman wastes nothing when she does it!

Homosexuality has also been common among the male (especially upper classes) population all the way back to the Roman Empire - generally for the reason that a woman was not considered good or pure enough to give a male that type of pleasure.

I would also ask you, if it's a choice… then why does it appear in the animal kingdom? While more uncommon, it is a naturally occuring phenomenon. Please see here for more information.

BRAVO CAT!
One thing I believe strongly....
prejudiced people / judgemental people are to be pitied.
They tend to surround themselves with people like themselves.....
I love and wanna live in a colorful, happy world.....with GOOD people who love others. Period.

As a gay man, I can tell you that it is not a learned response; it is biological/chemiclly induced in utero.....all the scientific evidence supports that-Finally! To those who would agrue otherwise, I would be glad to listen if you are gay......otherwise, you do not know for sure.......

So in the same case, killing someone to get what you want is okay. Because it is the human's natural response to things. The Survival of the fittest, if that person can't defend themselves, and I'm stronger than them, they don't deserve to survive.

Not to mention that it is not natural. What would happen if you put serveral hundred gay men on one island, and several hundred Gay women on another, with no way to get to one another? After a generation, they would all die out. No way to continue the species.

And look at old Phycological text-books and old text-books on disorders of the mind. If you go far enough back, you will see that it was considered a disorder of the mind to be homosexual.

And now days, there are several people pushing , (boy/man "love" association) to make it legal to do what they do. Keep observing, after a while, we will be in the same place we are now today with sodomy, in a few decades or less, but instead with pedophilia and bestiality. Just watch.

No… the other person did not consent to being killed. It is also harmful to the other person. Thus I do not believe it to be correct.

It is not natural in your book, but it certainly appears to be in nature. Of course our species would die out if everyone were homosexual, but not everyone is. Even among those that are homosexual, there is still the instinct to procreate, and they do this through any number of methods.

Psychology is an evolving field, it acknowledges it's own mistakes. The fact that you have to go back to have it tell you it is a disorder should be an indicator that you cannot trust the information, and need to see what is current. Older texts will also tell you that women tend to be hysterical and need medical attention to keep their nerves calm. Do you believe that to be true?

As far as NAMBLA, I stand firmly by my opinion that the child cannot make informed consent, and takes away their opportunity to learn and explore for themselves.

That we have even come this far - to a society in most cultures where children are allowed to develop into reasoning beings before beginning to have relationships, responsibilities and children themselves - I consider to be a wonderful thing. Anything that backslides that I believe to be a dangerous precedent.

Homosexuality has been before a commonly accepted practice - Pedophilia of the type we are discussing and Bestiality (accept among maybe some sheepfarmers JOKE JOKE JOKE) never have been.

I think the people above on threads who took a look and realized that arguing with you is not worth their time...THEY are smarter than me.
YOU twist MY words....and you bait people so that they will come and you can "save them". FROM WHAT? What are you saving us all from?
We were here on Caedes to enjoy art, and a good and loving community of friends and people who are all walks of life....and getting along wonderfully. So you come here to save us and until we all come around to your way of thinking, we are all sinners who will burn in hell.

Incidentally...if you take those old psychological text-books you will also find that they used to recommend SHOCK TREATMENT with good old electrodes....and just thought I'd mention my Mother went thru that, probably to treat DEPRESSION, and as a result, burned out things in her brain that caused senility and dementia and I lost my Mom but took care of the physical shell for 15 years. Hey...but if those same books say HOMOSEXUALITY is a disorder of the mind, then I am sure the shock treatment that fried her brain couldn't be all bad.
You can play make believe games and put all gay women on an island and all gay men on an island...and maybe the GAY species will go extinct! But I say I'd rather see all narrow minded, self righteous, hate filled humans get put on THEIR own island and maybe they'll be extinct someday.....

*applauds Terri wildly*

Brava Terri.....Brava

*pouts* I got no applause 8•(

and yes… let's not forget about those lobotomies!

CAT: We applaud you...and your very wise words! There are many LURKING who are too afraid of being HATED but they are applauding too....you can bet! Bravo to Phillippe and anyone who stands up against judgemental hate!

well it would appear that, somewhat inevitably, this discussion has gone south again as they always tend to do so it may indeed be time to draw a bead on it with the elephant gun before any other groups are marginalised and insulted for no apparent reason.

Covers ears waiting for gunshot! :)

Those of you that feel the NEED to change other's veiwpoints on life can feel free to log an account ----> Religion & Politics .. and pick up where you left off

don't let the wood door hit ya where the good lord split ya

new debate: was it TRULY the Good Lord who split us...or just a nasty crack-up?

I agree… Phillipe it takes alot of courage to stand up and declare yourself in a forum such as this one. *applauds*

Sorry Phil… I apologize to the sheepfarmers…

I personally think it is pretty sad that you can't trust something just because it is older. I don't agree that that Psych. book is a good example. I may be hitting quite a sore spot, but I think that homosexuality is merely something that is done because, while they do it, it makes them feel good, and that feeling, I guess, could drive them to believe that they have no control over it. I also want to STRESS that I DON'T hate homosexuals, I don't CONDONE THEIR BEHAVIOR. Actions alone aren't a reason to hate a person.

Bravo indeed to Phillipe for his courage , I applaud you hon.

Please Phil take aim ....

Hey Tim - not just because it's older, but because the field has changed since then. Things that are older but have not changed are a different matter. Each thing has to be weighed on it's own merits.

I personally disagree with you about homosexuality, but I respect your right to have a different opinion. All I would ask is that you do not make people who are homosexual feel hated/ostracized. Cool?

Edit: I wrote that while you added an edit of your own, and yes, thank you for looking @ it that way.

It takes no courge to be oneself, really..but, thank you for your sentiments..I take much pride in knowing many many of the great artists and photographers were and are homosexual.......we contribute a grett deal........no matter whom we sleeep with....I would like to add that it IS offensive to hear my "ilk" be mentionned in same paragraph as pedophiles. and/or besiality -lovers and, by the way, majority of them are heterosexual.This is not my opinion: it is a fact as researched and stated by the DSM-manual put out by the American Psych. Assoc..anyway, going back to art and posting..I hope no one slams my work now....that may happen; would not be the first time I have been punished for being myself.

Although I may not agree with you, I don't want to make it seem that I utterly despise you. Now, I don't mean any offense, but from what I know, most homosexuals come from disfunctional families, where either a parent is missing, or is abusive. If you don't wish to discuss this publicly, please PM me, because although I may not agree with your lifestyle, I want to know your side of the story. Please don't take this as offense.

Don't worry Phillippe...I'm pretty sure no one here would be like that...and I think this thread...should die soon!

Hey .. Tim .. let it go would ya

Actually I am glad I read this thread now as it clearly demonstrates that the majority of members on this site (at least, the ones whos opinions I care about) are sensible, open minded people who are prepared to stand up for what is right. Bravo!

I had some other things that I was going to say... but I don't want to stir things up again, so I'll leave it and hope this so-called discussion is over now...

PEACE FLAG WAVING! Tim....I have enjoyed playing games in OFFTOPICS with you.
I still love you....and will not shun u!
Differences are what make everyone interesting...so let's be ourselves and let others be...

DIE---thread, die! apology to all for adding another thread, but wanted Tim to understand I hope to play word games and be buddies as always! :)

Some men once killed a Christian disciple named Stephen only because he was preaching the gospel of their very salvation. He was doing nothing more or nothing less. These men were so upset by what Stephen said that they stoned him to death yet the only words he spoke were the words of God and the good news (gospel). As Stephen was dying he asked God not to charge them with his death. Did Stephen deserve to die for what he said?

My 2 cents, then I hope this thread quietly fades away...
As for homosexuals...I hate differentiating in that way, but if I must to state a pointof mine...my best friend was gay, as are MANY of my dear friends...to me however, they are just my FRIENDS whom I love, not "gays, lesbians, homosexuals"...but just friends...I don't say so and so my GAY friend...their sexual preference means nothing to me, as mine means nothing to them...I wish this damned planet would stop labeling all the wonderful diversity in it...my best friend died almost 3 years ago, and I have NO DOUBT that she is in whatever heaven that exists. She was the most amazing person, who was the epitomy of friendship and humankind...she was kind and generous and wonderful...if God or Allah or whomever keeps her from entering the pearly gates despite her amazingness, only because of her sexual preference...then that is not the God I know, and frankly do NOT want to know that God.

The problem with threads like these is that they tend to make enemies. This is not a spiritual forum, so opinions here will be just as diverse as the people who live on this planet...either take the opinions with a bit of honey or dont respond. But whether the opinions are agreed on or not, everyone should respect other members and the opinions they have...

*Applaud*

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself."

Sir Richard Francis Burton
British explorer & orientalist (1821 - 1890)

Amazingly enough… just now on the message board for delays/interruptions in the train station, someone had written the following quote:

"Reexamine what you have been told
Discard it if it insults your soul"
……………………………Walt Whitman.

I thought it was fairly apt in these circumstances.

One thing for certain...Mr. Burton does know the truth now.

As for souls they live forever....that's a long time to be insulted.

Hello all, I'm back from a pit of the void! I finally logged back in after about a year of not coming here to find that alot of my old controversial topics had been dreged up. First of all, I would like to make it perfectly clear that these topics were started as a conversation starter back when caedes had very little forum activity. I looked back on about 100 of the last posts, and it was pretty clear that emotions ran pretty high amongst you all. I'm not buliding up to an apology if that is what you are wondering. It was nice to see that most of you kept at least partially civil throughout these conversations. Just wanted to let everyone know that I'm not dead and thank you for not turning this topic into an all out flame war.

A monotheistic religion is one that worships an all-good,
all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful man. Leaves little room
for compromise.

I'm sorry I'm confused. Was that a response to my post or a retort to an earlier one?

Wasn't a response to anyone's comment

Joseph Campbell, who was one of the leading authorities on religion and mythology! Some of his close personal friends and past acquaintances were the Dali lama, Pope John, Oral Roberts, Mohandas Gandhi, Gorge Lucas, President Ragen, and many more. The point, he new his stuff.

He was once asked by an Arch Bishop of the Catholic Church if he believed in in God?

Mr. Campbell then said. what do you mean?

The Bishop then thought and rephrased his question and said, do you believe in a personal God?

Mr. Campbell replied with. “what need would there be for faith ”.

The Bishop then looked at him and just walked a way with out even a reply.

Something to think about, and ponder.

Rent the power of myth with Joseph Campnell a great book and video.