I've been reading through various threads here over the past month as I've been getting caught up and seeing what's going on with the site.

The Art Council and the effects of it seem to be one of the biggest issues here. In fact there seems to have been a stampede over in the direction of the Elephant Graveyard.

I agree that several of the issues are valid - issues with being able to maintain quality, operating in a vacuum, and the effects of rapid changes which have a negative perceived value (like receiving notification that you've had an image promoted and having it be demoted a week later).

I have some ideas about how I think the AC should work, but right now, I'd like to make one statement about current usage of the AC, and then throw the floor open for ideas about how everyone else would like to see it work, with a couple of starter questions. This is really open for everyone - because the people who are or may be on the council should be able to explain what they feel the best use of their time and effort would be. Moderators welcome to chime in with their opinion of what their own efforts are and what they see happening. Please do not use specific examples. Let's try and keep it civil, and I'll do my best to follow and moderate/mediate so it does not spiral out of control. Please do not make me send everyone to bed without their milk and cookies. I said cookies - somebody please restrain Les.

Statement: I have seen some people who have been concerned about "losing" their AC privileges because of the required percentages of nominations accepted or votes aligned with other members.

If you are more concerned with the ability to remain an Art Council member rather than risk it to nominate images you feel are worthwhile, vote honestly on the images you see come up in your jobs - then you are doing the job of AC Member a severe disservice - because you are not putting your whole heart into it. In fact, if you are more concerned with retaining membership than doing the job properly, you probably don't belong on the AC. This may sound harsh - however, the job of the AC is to what they feel is best in reference to the images. What use is having the privilege to nominate an outstanding overlooked or off-the-beaten-path image if you don't use it out of fear that using it will lose you the privilege? Not to mention that the privilege is cyclical and can become available again even if you lose it. Use it when you have it to the best of your ability, with the most honest opinion in your heart and your artist's eyes.

Starter questions:

1) Do you think that the AC should be completely independent of the moderators? Sometimes, always, never? How, why, etc.?

2) What is your greatest disappointment with the AC so far? How do you think this could be resolved?

3) What do you think is good about the AC? What value do you see in it?

Answer any of those, none of those - it's just a springboard (no backflips please, no, no double twisting sommersaults either) to get thoughts and convo moving.

1. I do not think the AC should be independent of the moderators because they bring some form of coherence to the process by regulating what does or doesn't become part of the main galleries. They are inclined to have an eye for whether an image is truly fitting for a placement there. In that regard, I think they should be able to vote on the AC cyclicly just as we do, but I also think they should review what has been promoted before it is put into those galleries and before notification is sent to the person whose image it is.

2. I am sad to see some of the better images overlooked and some of the lesser images forwarded to the main galleries. In this regard, I believe the moderators should also nominate if they don't already do so.

3.What is good about the AC is the fact that many are given the chance to promote a really fine image that in the past may have been overlooked by the moderators. Also, the process doesn't take as long as it used to take.

4. I would like to see the AC button grayed out (not the button removed from view) on an image if it has already been nominated so that if we have used our two nominations for the week, we can check back when we have the option of nominating again, to nominate something we saw previously, but couldn't tell if it had been nominated. As it is now,we cannot tell if an image has been nominated or not when we have used our two nominations for the time being because the AC button is not seen any longer on anyone's image.

With regard to the issue of losing the voting privilege because you took a risk in nominating something that was not 'majority' acceptable for promotion, I'd like to say that yes, the voting will return to you, but I waited months for that to occur and when I finally got the opportunity to vote again, it lasted for maybe a week, if that.

All I can think of at the moment though I might think of something later, but it will be good to see what some others have to say in response to your posted thread, Cat.

cynlee, a question about this: "4. I would like to see the AC button grayed out (not the button removed from view) on an image if it has already been nominated so that if we have used our two nominations for the week, we can check back when we have the option of nominating again, to nominate something we saw previously, but couldn't tell if it had been nominated. As it is now,we cannot tell if an image has been nominated or not when we have used our two nominations for the time being because the AC button is not seen any longer on anyone's image."

I think this might become confusing because you wouldn't know whether the button was grayed out because you had used up your nominations or because it had already been nominated. What do you think about having the button on nominated images change to say "nominated", and graying out the button altogether when you've used up your nominations?

Sure sounds like a workable solution to me, Cat.

cynlee, I missed this before, and I'd like to ask about it:

"With regard to the issue of losing the voting privilege because you took a risk in nominating something that was not 'majority' acceptable for promotion, I'd like to say that yes, the voting will return to you, but I waited months for that to occur and when I finally got the opportunity to vote again, it lasted for maybe a week, if that."

Being able to vote (rather than nominate) seems to be important to you. Can you explain why?

Well, they are both important to me, but I like to have the opportunity to say whether I agree with the nomination for promotion or not. It is another way of approving another good image other than by nominating it. On only one occasion that I remember was I asked to vote on an image I had also nominated. I am unclear as to whether the nomination itself is considered a positive vote in the total of 'yes' votes that allow for promotion of an image.

I'll try to get clarification on whether the nomination counts as a yes vote. I suspect that it does not, it's just a trigger that sends the image to the AC to be voted on.

In the meantime - I can understand wanting to have a "voice" in this way, but I think that it's necessary to step back and in essence - have faith. Faith both in yourself as an artist to pick and distinguish that which is not the cookie-cutter stuff and truly should be either nominated or promoted as being "a cut above" even "really good", and in your fellow artists to make the same decisions for those things that you put in front of their eyes by nominating them. So that you appreciate when you get to vote on images, but are not disappointed if you go for long times between the opportunity to do so, knowing that you've made sure that images you think are absolutely worthy have gotten attention.

rather then a simple on off switch adding more colors might solve the not knowing problem.

I've received a message from somebody who gave me their thoughts, but did not want to post them here because so many of these conversations have spiraled out of control and they feel burnt out about the idea of participating. I've asked them for permission to post those comments "anonymously" on their behalf, and if so, I will.

In the meantime, I'd like to make the same offer to anyone else who would like to say something, but would rather not feel like they've signed up for target practice. If you'd like to send me whatever thoughts and suggestions you have, I'll be happy to post them "anonymously" on your behalf.

I'd rather do that and have this conversation move than have it die for lack of participants (although we could give it a glorious funeral!)

The person who messaged me has agreed to have their thoughts posted anonymously:

I am very in favour of Moderator intervention on final choices for promotion, so my answer to 1) is never

[They are concerned about the issue of notifications, in that any notification of elevation to the Main galleries needs to happen in such a way that it's happening for images that are going to stay there for several months, and that it would be a rare event for images to be weeded out shortly after being promoted.]

2) My main concerns about the AC are the confusion regarding its mechanisms, and the trigger happy attitude of many - nominating right left and center without enough thought. Maybe favouring 'friends', I dont know, but if that is the case I most certainly do not approve of or participate in that practice. [They are in favor of the idea of having someone who nominates an image having to give a reason why they are doing so.]


3) It gives members a chance to be involved in the decisions. As advisors would be my preference.

Hannah makes a very valid point about the system discouraging stepping out of the mainstream. I have nominated some excellent fractals that were rejected by the "mainstream" , yet some mediocre photos get promoted? I trust the judgement of the mods more in that regard rather than that of the general membership.

Hannah, I wanted to wait and see if anyone else would respond. Since no one has yet...

Obviously, any system is only going to be as good as the people who are participating. Which is why you have to approach this from the standpoint that keeping the job is an impediment to doing the job *only if* you consider keeping the job that important.

This is not to say that it's not an important job, it's a matter of whether it's important for you (generic you) to personally hold and do it.

I understand the concern about the mainstream taste, but to be honest - that will always be an issue for those who are outliers. The purpose of the Art Council is to nominate and then promote what they as a body feel is worthy. Unless that body is made up primarily of those whose taste outside the mainstream (thereby cutting it off from the majority of the artists on the site), those images will never be as a whole those that are not in the tastes of the mainstream. The moment those tastes change to reflect more of what was not in the mainstream - then those images become the mainstream, and others will disagree with them.

The only way through is to keep nominating, putting images in front of the eyes of your fellow artists, getting them to take another look and consider the worthiness of those images. Again, this comes down to faith - faith that your fellow artists are taking the job, and doing it to the best of their ability.

Any system is only as good as the people who are putting into it and what they put into it.

It might give us a clearer picture of what is expected from the AC if we knew how the mods went about nominating and promoting images in the previous system. Were choices discussed before promotion or did you each promote as individuals without consultation with each other first?

On another note, I like the idea, expressed above, of having the nominating individual make a statement as to why they feel a particular image should be nominated. Then the mods could possibly look at the merits of such observation and determine if said image should be put up for voting.

In the main, images were (and are) promoted without consultation. The basis being that every mod is capable of recognizing and promoting worthwhile images. Obviously there wasn't/isn't always agreement, and things do get revisited, but it's rare because we rely on each other and have faith in each other's judgment. The mods still have the ability to promote images, so if there's something you see that you think has been overlooked (after going through the AC process), feel free to bring it to a mod. However, when you do that, you will need to accept that the mod's judgment may not agree with yours.

Sidenote about that: I can tell you from my standpoint, I have no problem explaining what is behind my decision or opinion, but I - and I think a number of the other mods - have a real problem with some people who will not accept a respectful disagreement and treat it with a "shrug", and instead continue to argue with the moderator's decision and reasoning, asking for a different decision. Respectfully replying explaining the disagreement while accepting with a shrug that the decision is final - again, no problem with that.