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Discussion Board -> Non-art Website Issues -> Followup to the AC Poll
Followup to the AC Poll
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Post a Comment - Subscribe to this discussionOverflow mode, hiding 14 messages. [View]
I voted No, it should go back to how it was before the AC
I thought the Art Council was a horrible idea from the start and protested strongly against it's formation There were many reasons why I opposed the whole concept. .here was my exact quote (It may start off harmless enough but I see down the road it could be very devise and could separate people that may led to friction and tension) plus I just had a bad gut feeling about it.
I don't like the Art Council anymore now then I did then but just learned to live with it.
P.S. That is my story and I am sticking to it....grin!
I thought the Art Council was a horrible idea from the start and protested strongly against it's formation There were many reasons why I opposed the whole concept. .here was my exact quote (It may start off harmless enough but I see down the road it could be very devise and could separate people that may led to friction and tension) plus I just had a bad gut feeling about it.
I don't like the Art Council anymore now then I did then but just learned to live with it.
P.S. That is my story and I am sticking to it....grin!
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Please Join The Caedes Kiva Team
wise person above.
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"Windows 95 is a 32-bit extention to a 16-bit patch for an 8-bit operating system that was originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1-bit of competition."
Had there been a Poll option for a return for the way the VB used to operate i.e.everyone obliged to vote and submit their work to the VB, that would have taken my vote, hands down. No question.
I miss voting, it was always my first 'job' on logging in and took me to random images I would otherwise not have seen, and I miss seeing a score on my images. I did not like what it had become immediately prior to its demise - many members having opted out.
Many days I spend as much time deciding on AC votes as I would have voting the old way, without the same enjoyment and lacking the surprise element. Yes, I do peruse the New Images, but will admit I am naturally drawn to images I personally find pleasing and would like on my desktop - and they are quite often images belonging to those on my Friends list - after all that is why they are on my list - I like their work, and I discovered them via the VB.
If I had unlimited hours to consider every upload that would be great but I don't (and I doubt many others do either, including Image Mods). Being given a varied selection to look at was good, and kept members moving round the site rather than honing in on what they 'like'. Getting an image 'permed' is not the be all and end all - having an image appraised honestly by votes was an incentive, and seeing random images encouraged members to stop and leave a comment.
I miss voting, it was always my first 'job' on logging in and took me to random images I would otherwise not have seen, and I miss seeing a score on my images. I did not like what it had become immediately prior to its demise - many members having opted out.
Many days I spend as much time deciding on AC votes as I would have voting the old way, without the same enjoyment and lacking the surprise element. Yes, I do peruse the New Images, but will admit I am naturally drawn to images I personally find pleasing and would like on my desktop - and they are quite often images belonging to those on my Friends list - after all that is why they are on my list - I like their work, and I discovered them via the VB.
If I had unlimited hours to consider every upload that would be great but I don't (and I doubt many others do either, including Image Mods). Being given a varied selection to look at was good, and kept members moving round the site rather than honing in on what they 'like'. Getting an image 'permed' is not the be all and end all - having an image appraised honestly by votes was an incentive, and seeing random images encouraged members to stop and leave a comment.
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My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
so how do you feel about users only considering people they know?
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"Windows 95 is a 32-bit extention to a 16-bit patch for an 8-bit operating system that was originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1-bit of competition."
re: "so how do you feel about users only considering people they know?"
I presume by 'considering' you refer to nominating their images? And by 'know' you refer to friends on lists ?
Scroll back up to post #6 and you will see - quote "If this IS the case those doing so should be removed from the AC."
For clarification - I did not say being drawn to them resulted in nominations. Of my last 12 nominations four have been images of 'friends'. and...12 is the sum total of my successful nominations to date.
I presume by 'considering' you refer to nominating their images? And by 'know' you refer to friends on lists ?
Scroll back up to post #6 and you will see - quote "If this IS the case those doing so should be removed from the AC."
For clarification - I did not say being drawn to them resulted in nominations. Of my last 12 nominations four have been images of 'friends'. and...12 is the sum total of my successful nominations to date.
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My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
so how do you feel about users only considering people they know?
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"Windows 95 is a 32-bit extention to a 16-bit patch for an 8-bit operating system that was originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1-bit of competition."
Name one that does so. By that statement I simply mean that it sounds like you know for a fact that there are people on here who do consider the work of only the people they know.
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LYTRO. The new light field photography. Refocus your shots AFTER you have taken them. Just click on the word LYTRO. See a VIDEO HERE.
i think there should be no new gallery no perm gallery one big gallery.images should be flagged as new when uploaded then after a week not flagged.there would be no need for AC.i think there should be no voting in fact there should be nothing here on the site that would make people try and compete except the contests.Images should stay up for X amount of time in galleries then site automatically archives them not the mods.everyone would get treated exaclty the same problem solved.I also think is a user breaks rules when they upload an image the should lose their rights to upload for X amount of time.
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"Windows 95 is a 32-bit extention to a 16-bit patch for an 8-bit operating system that was originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1-bit of competition."
"so how do you feel about users only considering people they know?"
This kind of behaviour is not fair to my mind, nor, that of unbiased.
Reading on image pages that some will hold back a nomination for their friends.. not fair, nor that of unbiased either.
(Let alone the number of times reading anything in a comment placed on an image's page that is in reference to nominations, et al ... and the Art Council function.)
The end result, in my opinion, that the Main Galleries will become just an(other) online gallery for a small group. Not that of a special place for special works and images.
And in turn, discourage more participation (postings/uploads, comments, et al ... NEW members signing up) from the Community at large.
This kind of behaviour is not fair to my mind, nor, that of unbiased.
Reading on image pages that some will hold back a nomination for their friends.. not fair, nor that of unbiased either.
(Let alone the number of times reading anything in a comment placed on an image's page that is in reference to nominations, et al ... and the Art Council function.)
The end result, in my opinion, that the Main Galleries will become just an(other) online gallery for a small group. Not that of a special place for special works and images.
And in turn, discourage more participation (postings/uploads, comments, et al ... NEW members signing up) from the Community at large.
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We now return you to the regularly scheduled discussion and, what is at hand:
"If 'you' (speaking generally here) voted for:
1) "No, there need to be major changes"
What exactly, in your opinion, are the major changes you think need to be made?
And similarly, if 'you' voted for this option:
2) "No, there need to be some minor changes"
What exactly, in your opinion, are the minor changes you think need to be made?
Feel free to share your thoughts/ideas and elaborate on what changes 'you' feel need to be addressed.
As well as, and if applicable ... the 'how' the changes could be implemented."
"If 'you' (speaking generally here) voted for:
1) "No, there need to be major changes"
What exactly, in your opinion, are the major changes you think need to be made?
And similarly, if 'you' voted for this option:
2) "No, there need to be some minor changes"
What exactly, in your opinion, are the minor changes you think need to be made?
Feel free to share your thoughts/ideas and elaborate on what changes 'you' feel need to be addressed.
As well as, and if applicable ... the 'how' the changes could be implemented."
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Reading on image pages that some will hold back a nomination for their friends.. not fair, nor that of unbiased either.
I'm not sure that I understand that paragraph, Les.
I stated my idea for changes in a poll related to this topic. I said I think AC members should be allowed more than 2 choices in a week and the nomination should be seconded by another member (i.e. someone else also nominating said image) before it is actually moved onto the AC voting mechanism. That provides more concensus as to whether an image deserves to be voted on before it takes up the time of the voting members and also allows the AC members to not worry about using up their two nominations in a week. I think we should be allowed to nominate at least five images in that time frame.
I'm not sure that I understand that paragraph, Les.
I stated my idea for changes in a poll related to this topic. I said I think AC members should be allowed more than 2 choices in a week and the nomination should be seconded by another member (i.e. someone else also nominating said image) before it is actually moved onto the AC voting mechanism. That provides more concensus as to whether an image deserves to be voted on before it takes up the time of the voting members and also allows the AC members to not worry about using up their two nominations in a week. I think we should be allowed to nominate at least five images in that time frame.
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LYTRO. The new light field photography. Refocus your shots AFTER you have taken them. Just click on the word LYTRO. See a VIDEO HERE.
From the AC Poll discussion thread:
::corngrowth - 11/09/11 6:43
"Arbitrariness however is further facilitated because an art council member can only nominate two entries per week. If more submissions in that period are worth to be nominated, the "remaining" entries will not still be nominated after the week is over. The limit of two therefore is somewhat arbitrary to me."
+purmusic - 11/09/11 12:03
"The limit of two therefore is somewhat arbitrary to me."
"Not necessarily true, Cornelius.
As you may find out, in light of the 'successes' of your nominations and votes cast/promoted images."
::corngrowth - 11/09/11 6:43
"Arbitrariness however is further facilitated because an art council member can only nominate two entries per week. If more submissions in that period are worth to be nominated, the "remaining" entries will not still be nominated after the week is over. The limit of two therefore is somewhat arbitrary to me."
+purmusic - 11/09/11 12:03
"The limit of two therefore is somewhat arbitrary to me."
"Not necessarily true, Cornelius.
As you may find out, in light of the 'successes' of your nominations and votes cast/promoted images."
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Sorry, but I fail to understand the first paragraph I mentioned as well as the last one in your last comment. I did read this earlier and did not understand it then either. Your response, not what Cornelius said.
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LYTRO. The new light field photography. Refocus your shots AFTER you have taken them. Just click on the word LYTRO. See a VIDEO HERE.
"the nomination should be seconded by another member (i.e. someone else also nominating said image) before it is actually moved onto the AC voting mechanism"
I'll second that concept. (No pun intended.)
Requiring multiple people clicking the AC button to move an image to the AC voting process would increase the likelihood of said images being of higher quality.
I'll second that concept. (No pun intended.)
Requiring multiple people clicking the AC button to move an image to the AC voting process would increase the likelihood of said images being of higher quality.
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People aren't going to remember the things you do. They're going to remember how you made people feel. Be kind, gracious, and appreciative. Dan Winters - Photographer.
From The Caedes.net Code of Conduct:
"Voting on images should be based on each image's quality and not the image's author."
_______________________________________________________________
An example, from the past, on the notes of voting:
"Don't know the C-index yet, but this image deserves a high score for two reasons: 1. Because it's a beautiful post, and; 2. To support you!"
An example, recently, on the notes of references made to the Art Council process and that of saving nominations/nominating friend's images:
"I can nominate only two images in a week for the AC, but I had the feeling that you would still come with a very special one, so I kept one nomination free. There it goes, my friend."
_______________________________________________________________
"Not necessarily true, Cornelius.
As you may find out, in light of the 'successes' of your nominations and votes cast/promoted images."
If more of 'your' (speaking generally here) nominations succeed in the Art Council process, 'you' will be able to nominate more than two images in a week's time frame.
"Voting on images should be based on each image's quality and not the image's author."
_______________________________________________________________
An example, from the past, on the notes of voting:
"Don't know the C-index yet, but this image deserves a high score for two reasons: 1. Because it's a beautiful post, and; 2. To support you!"
An example, recently, on the notes of references made to the Art Council process and that of saving nominations/nominating friend's images:
"I can nominate only two images in a week for the AC, but I had the feeling that you would still come with a very special one, so I kept one nomination free. There it goes, my friend."
_______________________________________________________________
"Not necessarily true, Cornelius.
As you may find out, in light of the 'successes' of your nominations and votes cast/promoted images."
If more of 'your' (speaking generally here) nominations succeed in the Art Council process, 'you' will be able to nominate more than two images in a week's time frame.
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If more of 'your' (speaking generally here) nominations succeed in the Art Council process, 'you' will be able to nominate more than two images in a week's time frame....................
I did not realize that. I also understand now what you were saying that I wasn't quite getting before. Thank you. I agree that statements like those you gave as examples should not be made.
I did not realize that. I also understand now what you were saying that I wasn't quite getting before. Thank you. I agree that statements like those you gave as examples should not be made.
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LYTRO. The new light field photography. Refocus your shots AFTER you have taken them. Just click on the word LYTRO. See a VIDEO HERE.
Requiring two nominations will lower the numbers but I don't see how it would improve the quality in the Main Galleries. Images already have to get plenty of votes to get promoted. How many votes did it take to get 6 windmill pictures on the first page?
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"In the beginning, there was nothing. Then God said, "Let there be light". And there was still nothing but you could see it." -- Groucho Marx
Well that's true enough Hannah that it would lower the numbers, but when you nominate, you really have to put some thought into how you are using your allotment of nominations. When you vote, it is simply giving a yay or nay on an image that is presented to you for a final determination.
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LYTRO. The new light field photography. Refocus your shots AFTER you have taken them. Just click on the word LYTRO. See a VIDEO HERE.
re: "The end result, in my opinion, that the Main Galleries will become just an(other) online gallery for a small group. Not that of a special place for special works and images."
I agree that biased behavior is not good but this situation could be overcome by the mods making final choices - and also promoting (directly or by nomination)images under the current system. You (the image mods)should all have enough expertise to appreciate what is and what is not a genuine nomination.
If the alleged 'small group' is dominating the nominating/voting then it is up to everyone to participate and level the field.
I do not see that holding back a vote alters things all that much. Often I see a couple of images I think deserve nomination on the day but I always delay a few days - sometimes much longer so as to evaluate a larger group. To my mind that is being responsible - not rushing in with a whoop of delight on seeing a familiar style, name, scene and voting on it there and then because it impressed at the time.
I agree with the concept of more than one nomination being required for voting to be done - that was part of my original thoughts above. I think more than two would be needed though - but that can not be done under the present system.
Now it is simple enough for anyone to nominate only friends images - and they have to be voted on regardless of whether anyone else agrees that it is of a high enough standard.
I still think regarding the nominations as actual votes is better, but requiring more than one and then opening up for votes would be a step in the right direction.
I agree that biased behavior is not good but this situation could be overcome by the mods making final choices - and also promoting (directly or by nomination)images under the current system. You (the image mods)should all have enough expertise to appreciate what is and what is not a genuine nomination.
If the alleged 'small group' is dominating the nominating/voting then it is up to everyone to participate and level the field.
I do not see that holding back a vote alters things all that much. Often I see a couple of images I think deserve nomination on the day but I always delay a few days - sometimes much longer so as to evaluate a larger group. To my mind that is being responsible - not rushing in with a whoop of delight on seeing a familiar style, name, scene and voting on it there and then because it impressed at the time.
I agree with the concept of more than one nomination being required for voting to be done - that was part of my original thoughts above. I think more than two would be needed though - but that can not be done under the present system.
Now it is simple enough for anyone to nominate only friends images - and they have to be voted on regardless of whether anyone else agrees that it is of a high enough standard.
I still think regarding the nominations as actual votes is better, but requiring more than one and then opening up for votes would be a step in the right direction.
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My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
still say there should be no new gallery no perm gallery one big gallery.images should be flagged as new when uploaded then after a week not flagged.there would be no need for AC.i think there should be no voting in fact there should be nothing here on the site that would make people try and compete except the contests.Images should stay up for X amount of time in galleries then site automatically archives them not the mods.everyone would get treated exaclty the same
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"Windows 95 is a 32-bit extention to a 16-bit patch for an 8-bit operating system that was originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1-bit of competition."
For the record, I don't believe that the 'small group' referred to is doing so with malicious or nefarious intent.. just think it is a byproduct of having a large "Friend's List".
Time gets whittled down to near nothing for other site activities for certain members once they have viewed/commented on Friend's images.
And ergo ... those images on Friend's Lists get paid more attention and subsequently, nominated more often, methinks.
Time gets whittled down to near nothing for other site activities for certain members once they have viewed/commented on Friend's images.
And ergo ... those images on Friend's Lists get paid more attention and subsequently, nominated more often, methinks.
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no perm gallery ??
Might as well tip our images into the PhotoBucket then !!
I believe first time visitors would want to view the best the site has to offer in the first instance - not a hotch-potch of varying degrees of talent.
Might as well tip our images into the PhotoBucket then !!
I believe first time visitors would want to view the best the site has to offer in the first instance - not a hotch-potch of varying degrees of talent.
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My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
One thing that tbob's ideas/thoughts address, however.. is that of leveling the playing field, so to speak, for alllll members.
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lyneve so as the perms stand today they are the best Caedes has to offer?
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"Windows 95 is a 32-bit extention to a 16-bit patch for an 8-bit operating system that was originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1-bit of competition."
I thought the whole object was to present to 'cream of the crop', 'exceptional' and 'outstanding' images ? ?
Those words not my own - used by others.
:)
"And ergo ... those images on Friend's Lists get paid more attention and subsequently, nominated more often, methinks."
Yes and that is where the VB came into its own by forcing members to look at other images - until it became optional, and then went away.
The playing field is level - surely?? - everyone has the same opportunities to participate (or not) as they wish
How about making it a requirement to comment on a set number of randomly selected images from New Images before being allowed access to any other site activities ? . . Prioritise circulating -
Those words not my own - used by others.
:)
"And ergo ... those images on Friend's Lists get paid more attention and subsequently, nominated more often, methinks."
Yes and that is where the VB came into its own by forcing members to look at other images - until it became optional, and then went away.
The playing field is level - surely?? - everyone has the same opportunities to participate (or not) as they wish
How about making it a requirement to comment on a set number of randomly selected images from New Images before being allowed access to any other site activities ? . . Prioritise circulating -
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My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
How about making it a requirement to comment on a set number of randomly selected images from New Images before being allowed access to any other site activities ? . . Prioritise circulating -----
But then you would be taking away the idea that "everyone has the same opportunities to participate (or not) as they wish".
I think 'friends' get added to your friends list because you like what they present in their work. That's how it works for me. I try to comment on new user's images when I can, have even recently nominated one to the AC and it is now in the Main Gallery. Several other new members have had their images nominated and gone to that gallery as well.
Lyn is right though that it was easier to notice non-"list" members stuff when it was presented to us in the VB.
If you frequent the site everyday, you are more likely to run across these images than say someone who stops in once a week. I doubt those who come by less frequently have time or inclination to view the last 7 days worth of new images. Maybe they do. I don't know. Everyone has a different routine of what they do here. It's up to them. So either we leave things so that most of what is done here is optional or we start setting requirements. You can ask folks to please view images not belonging to their friends only, but in the end, they are going to do as they wish, so I don't know how we can get around that other than to streamline the AC process a bit.
But then you would be taking away the idea that "everyone has the same opportunities to participate (or not) as they wish".
I think 'friends' get added to your friends list because you like what they present in their work. That's how it works for me. I try to comment on new user's images when I can, have even recently nominated one to the AC and it is now in the Main Gallery. Several other new members have had their images nominated and gone to that gallery as well.
Lyn is right though that it was easier to notice non-"list" members stuff when it was presented to us in the VB.
If you frequent the site everyday, you are more likely to run across these images than say someone who stops in once a week. I doubt those who come by less frequently have time or inclination to view the last 7 days worth of new images. Maybe they do. I don't know. Everyone has a different routine of what they do here. It's up to them. So either we leave things so that most of what is done here is optional or we start setting requirements. You can ask folks to please view images not belonging to their friends only, but in the end, they are going to do as they wish, so I don't know how we can get around that other than to streamline the AC process a bit.
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LYTRO. The new light field photography. Refocus your shots AFTER you have taken them. Just click on the word LYTRO. See a VIDEO HERE.
why does anything have to be a requirement theres a lot more cool stuff going on here then just friends or requirements.myself when im workin on something i look at everything.if i see something i like i say thats cool if i see something that i dont like i say how i feel about what im lookin at.im not required to do that I do it because im stuck at the moment takin a breather listen to some good jams and happen to see somethin that looks pretty sweet or not .seems like not to many people think on that level around here anymore all I have to say is sucks to be you.
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"Windows 95 is a 32-bit extention to a 16-bit patch for an 8-bit operating system that was originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1-bit of competition."
Cynlee -"But then you would be taking away the idea that "everyone has the same opportunities to participate (or not) as they wish"."
True, but no one ever complained in the past when it was a requirement to vote on a number of images before uploading their own work - it was taken for granted that was how it was.
tbob - "lyneve so as the perms stand today they are the best Caedes has to offer?"
Not necessarily - I have some absolute masterpieces lurking in my archived images lol (joke)
But - they are the images that have been noticed by those who participate on a regular basis and they have recommended them. The other way is for you guys to chose them independent of any member input, as before. Would that make it any better?
IMO a compromise can be reached - it has been said it is too big a task for Image Mods to look at every image so let the members recommend, and then you decide - and make some decisions re promotions yourselves as well.
"if i see something i like i say thats cool if i see something that i dont like i say how i feel about what im lookin at."
feel free to say how you feel about any of my 1708 images - I do not recall you ever having done so. Perhaps because I am not on your 'friends list' ?
True, but no one ever complained in the past when it was a requirement to vote on a number of images before uploading their own work - it was taken for granted that was how it was.
tbob - "lyneve so as the perms stand today they are the best Caedes has to offer?"
Not necessarily - I have some absolute masterpieces lurking in my archived images lol (joke)
But - they are the images that have been noticed by those who participate on a regular basis and they have recommended them. The other way is for you guys to chose them independent of any member input, as before. Would that make it any better?
IMO a compromise can be reached - it has been said it is too big a task for Image Mods to look at every image so let the members recommend, and then you decide - and make some decisions re promotions yourselves as well.
"if i see something i like i say thats cool if i see something that i dont like i say how i feel about what im lookin at."
feel free to say how you feel about any of my 1708 images - I do not recall you ever having done so. Perhaps because I am not on your 'friends list' ?
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My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
a perfect deal for me who be be people choose based on i like it or i dont like it.lets face it if its really cool its really cool.i dont know about anyone else but when i see something i like i think damn thats cool.its a personal thing at least it is to me.
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"Windows 95 is a 32-bit extention to a 16-bit patch for an 8-bit operating system that was originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1-bit of competition."
Bob, if that's really what you want to see happen here then we will just be another photo storing website like all the others. And I'd like to know how you know that it sucks to be me or anyone else who holds a different opinion than you. That is rather elitist.
Lyn, Some did complain about having to vote before posting in the past.
Sure I think there can be compromise and idea sharing, but ultimately it has to be something that Geri is amenable to in those suggestions. Maybe he likes things just the way they are.
I wonder how he is doing.
Lyn, Some did complain about having to vote before posting in the past.
Sure I think there can be compromise and idea sharing, but ultimately it has to be something that Geri is amenable to in those suggestions. Maybe he likes things just the way they are.
I wonder how he is doing.
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LYTRO. The new light field photography. Refocus your shots AFTER you have taken them. Just click on the word LYTRO. See a VIDEO HERE.
For the 101th time its Mike not Bob jez cant you remember anything.
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"Windows 95 is a 32-bit extention to a 16-bit patch for an 8-bit operating system that was originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1-bit of competition."
And......here we go again, can't you all leave this subject for what it is, The VB is gone...unfortunally...the AC is here...unfortunally...
Your all responsable for that, just read all the other 99 discussions in several threads on the site...we all think differently and yes...you have the right to complain about something, but than again accept the changes as a result of this complaining.....use your time to do something usefull instead of pointing fingers to eachother, cause that's what your all doing in those discussions or with other words respect someones opinion, even if you don't share those thoughts!!
Just my thoughts here, for what it's worth!
So if you will excuse me, I am going to do something usefull with my time...going to send some pictures into the AC
:oP
Your all responsable for that, just read all the other 99 discussions in several threads on the site...we all think differently and yes...you have the right to complain about something, but than again accept the changes as a result of this complaining.....use your time to do something usefull instead of pointing fingers to eachother, cause that's what your all doing in those discussions or with other words respect someones opinion, even if you don't share those thoughts!!
Just my thoughts here, for what it's worth!
So if you will excuse me, I am going to do something usefull with my time...going to send some pictures into the AC
:oP
2∈
[?]
Carpe Diem!
I agree with David/zunazet that maybe a filtering stage could help filter some of the repetitive images. I have always wondered if more than one nomination, possibly three may be helpful before they are ever voted on. Then maybe a final screening process after that, although I am unsure how that could be implemented.?
4∈
[?]
This whole discussion was instigated by management which suggests they are not happy with the way the AC is functioning.
They set up a Poll which gave results. Then we were asked to elaborate on our reasons for how we responded to that, and told to feel free to share our thoughts and ideas.
The discussion was not started by members complaining or pointing fingers.
I believe it was a genuine effort by those in charge to improve the final outcome of the nominations/AC voting.
We were asked for opinions - they have been forthcoming - albeit not from a very wide selection of members.
We were requested to 'Keep the thoughts and ideas coming.'
(We have also been informed that if we do not just meander around giving the occassional "thats cool" comment then sucks to us. Whatever that means.)
As far as I can recall any previous complaints about the old vb were not about the system but about they way is was being (mis)used. Most of these came from members. Now management is indicating the new AC is also not being used properly, and examples have been given.
Was the poll useful ? Is this discussion useful ?
I think so.
Over and out of here.
They set up a Poll which gave results. Then we were asked to elaborate on our reasons for how we responded to that, and told to feel free to share our thoughts and ideas.
The discussion was not started by members complaining or pointing fingers.
I believe it was a genuine effort by those in charge to improve the final outcome of the nominations/AC voting.
We were asked for opinions - they have been forthcoming - albeit not from a very wide selection of members.
We were requested to 'Keep the thoughts and ideas coming.'
(We have also been informed that if we do not just meander around giving the occassional "thats cool" comment then sucks to us. Whatever that means.)
As far as I can recall any previous complaints about the old vb were not about the system but about they way is was being (mis)used. Most of these came from members. Now management is indicating the new AC is also not being used properly, and examples have been given.
Was the poll useful ? Is this discussion useful ?
I think so.
Over and out of here.
0∈
[?]
My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
Intermission time..
As of this writing here, there are thirty-seven (37) votes cast in the AC Poll:
Yes, leave things exactly as they are - six (6) votes.
No, there need to be some minor changes - eight (8) votes.
No, there need to be major changes - thirteen (13) votes.
No, it should go back to how it was before the AC - ten (10) votes.
Counting those members that posted/responded to the AC Poll discussion and this one here:
13, 14 members. (Need coffee, and well ... my glasses, too.)
So..
My thanks to those that have participated thus far, as some good good ideas have come out of these respective discussions.
However..
We've yet to hear the thoughts/ideas from almost two-thirds of the voters in the AC Poll as to the 'whys' they voted as they did in the AC Poll.
Feel free to share your thoughts. Please.
The more specific, the better.
Towards the end goal(s) of determining just exactly what needs to be addressed and/or tweaked ... with respect to the Art Council.
*caedes, ultimately, is the decider of things for the site here.
Wouldn't it be great (for him) if a consensus amongst ourselves could be reached and suggestions/changes agreed upon that worked towards improving the results of the Art Council process?
As of this writing here, there are thirty-seven (37) votes cast in the AC Poll:
Yes, leave things exactly as they are - six (6) votes.
No, there need to be some minor changes - eight (8) votes.
No, there need to be major changes - thirteen (13) votes.
No, it should go back to how it was before the AC - ten (10) votes.
Counting those members that posted/responded to the AC Poll discussion and this one here:
13, 14 members. (Need coffee, and well ... my glasses, too.)
So..
My thanks to those that have participated thus far, as some good good ideas have come out of these respective discussions.
However..
We've yet to hear the thoughts/ideas from almost two-thirds of the voters in the AC Poll as to the 'whys' they voted as they did in the AC Poll.
Feel free to share your thoughts. Please.
The more specific, the better.
Towards the end goal(s) of determining just exactly what needs to be addressed and/or tweaked ... with respect to the Art Council.
*caedes, ultimately, is the decider of things for the site here.
Wouldn't it be great (for him) if a consensus amongst ourselves could be reached and suggestions/changes agreed upon that worked towards improving the results of the Art Council process?
0∈
[?]
Sorry, Mike. I thought your name was Bob. Didn't mean to offend.
0∈
[?]
LYTRO. The new light field photography. Refocus your shots AFTER you have taken them. Just click on the word LYTRO. See a VIDEO HERE.
My thoughts of what would work well, and I think would balance the personal preferences that exist even among the mods.
1) Stick with the 2 nominations per week as a way of forcing people to be more selective at the beginning of the process. I'm not currently in favor of the "more if your nomination is approved" because I just see way too much room for manipulation there. However, with the following changes, I'd be extremely supportive of it.
2) Any nomination that receives 70% yes votes goes to a mod voting system, and needs at least 3 yes votes to go to the main galleries.
3) Any nomination that receives 95% yes votes at the AC level goes to the main gallery without having to go through the mod system (if that many people like it, it would probably be a yes vote via the mod system anyway, and it clearly appeals to a wide enough audience to warrant attention).
4) Mods can also nominate images directly into either the AC or the Mod system - as a Mod, I know I've hesitated over things, and being able to get a 2nd opinion this way would be useful to me. However, mods would still retain the ability to directly promote or demote.
5) Minimum AC voting population to be kept private to prevent manipulation, but should be based on a percentage of the weekly pool of active voting members. Which also gives those who don't like what they're seeing more of a reason to get in there and be part of the active voting pool.
6) While this would clear up a lot of the "not really worthy" stuff, there would still be the issue of duplications, etc. So, in the event that an image needs to be removed from the main gallery because there are 6 almost identical river shots, unless a couple of them are clearly better, mods message the artist to ask them to select which one or 2 (depending on how close the duplication is) shots they would like to have remain. Ideally this is a problem that would be caught at the upload stage to enforce section 2E* of the CoC, but frankly it doesn't always happen. Stuff slips through the cracks.
*"Once an image has been uploaded to the site it should not be uploaded again unless substantial changes have been made to it. These changes should be enough so that it could be reasonably assumed that the resulting changed image would receive a better critique than the previous version."
fyi, a minor color change, a slightly different view taken from 2 steps to the left, or eliminating a phone pole wire do not count as "substantial" changes. The difference between the 2 images should be drastic, such that they are clearly visible to the naked eye on a single glance, in their thumbnail size.
-----------------------------
These are changes that I feel would balance the workload better, with input from everyone, and a more selective process to make sure that main galleries are a wide and varied selection of the best that we have to offer, and would be less open to any favoritism or manipulation (intended or accidental).
1) Stick with the 2 nominations per week as a way of forcing people to be more selective at the beginning of the process. I'm not currently in favor of the "more if your nomination is approved" because I just see way too much room for manipulation there. However, with the following changes, I'd be extremely supportive of it.
2) Any nomination that receives 70% yes votes goes to a mod voting system, and needs at least 3 yes votes to go to the main galleries.
3) Any nomination that receives 95% yes votes at the AC level goes to the main gallery without having to go through the mod system (if that many people like it, it would probably be a yes vote via the mod system anyway, and it clearly appeals to a wide enough audience to warrant attention).
4) Mods can also nominate images directly into either the AC or the Mod system - as a Mod, I know I've hesitated over things, and being able to get a 2nd opinion this way would be useful to me. However, mods would still retain the ability to directly promote or demote.
5) Minimum AC voting population to be kept private to prevent manipulation, but should be based on a percentage of the weekly pool of active voting members. Which also gives those who don't like what they're seeing more of a reason to get in there and be part of the active voting pool.
6) While this would clear up a lot of the "not really worthy" stuff, there would still be the issue of duplications, etc. So, in the event that an image needs to be removed from the main gallery because there are 6 almost identical river shots, unless a couple of them are clearly better, mods message the artist to ask them to select which one or 2 (depending on how close the duplication is) shots they would like to have remain. Ideally this is a problem that would be caught at the upload stage to enforce section 2E* of the CoC, but frankly it doesn't always happen. Stuff slips through the cracks.
*"Once an image has been uploaded to the site it should not be uploaded again unless substantial changes have been made to it. These changes should be enough so that it could be reasonably assumed that the resulting changed image would receive a better critique than the previous version."
fyi, a minor color change, a slightly different view taken from 2 steps to the left, or eliminating a phone pole wire do not count as "substantial" changes. The difference between the 2 images should be drastic, such that they are clearly visible to the naked eye on a single glance, in their thumbnail size.
-----------------------------
These are changes that I feel would balance the workload better, with input from everyone, and a more selective process to make sure that main galleries are a wide and varied selection of the best that we have to offer, and would be less open to any favoritism or manipulation (intended or accidental).
6∈
[?]
One man sees things and says
Cat, I think I understand most of what you said, but I don't understand number 5 though I have read it through multiple times. I do have two questions too. How many active mods are there reviewing images at this time and at this time, on a weekly basis, how many regular members are voting on nominated images? If I knew the answers to those questions, I might be better able to understand the changes you have put forward.
0∈
[?]
LYTRO. The new light field photography. Refocus your shots AFTER you have taken them. Just click on the word LYTRO. See a VIDEO HERE.
Cindy, I have no idea what those numbers are. The only one who would know would be *caedes. I chose the number 3 on the mods because it would be a minimum consensus of mods while being more than 1.
The other number, in my opinion, I don't need to know - because either people are participating or they aren't, and if the site is at all functional, then a percentage of those who are active, no matter how small or large is going to be as representative as possible of the active members (who are the only ones who get a say in my opinion - in the put up or shut up category). I hope that clarifies it for you.
The other number, in my opinion, I don't need to know - because either people are participating or they aren't, and if the site is at all functional, then a percentage of those who are active, no matter how small or large is going to be as representative as possible of the active members (who are the only ones who get a say in my opinion - in the put up or shut up category). I hope that clarifies it for you.
5∈
[?]
One man sees things and says
I like some of your suggestions there. But I'm also confused about number 5 - what would define an "active voting member" without a voting booth? Unless you mean active AC members, in which case how would anyone get on the AC in the first place?
0∈
[?]
"In the beginning, there was nothing. Then God said, "Let there be light". And there was still nothing but you could see it." -- Groucho Marx
I think you have to have an image in the Main gallery to become an AC voter, Hannah. I don't know if you fall out of that criteria when you haven't had an image move into that gallery in a long while or not.
0∈
[?]
LYTRO. The new light field photography. Refocus your shots AFTER you have taken them. Just click on the word LYTRO. See a VIDEO HERE.
"Unless you mean active AC members, in which case how would anyone get on the AC in the first place?"
We are talking about the Art Council here, so.. yeah ... active AC members.
Next part of your question:
Caedes Art Council
(/\ Found via the left-hand side menus, under "Navigation" > "Site Information".)
We are talking about the Art Council here, so.. yeah ... active AC members.
Next part of your question:
Caedes Art Council
(/\ Found via the left-hand side menus, under "Navigation" > "Site Information".)
0∈
[?]
•Their voting is consistent with those of their fellow Art Council members (a correlation coefficient >=0.2).
That factor of greater than or equal to 0.2 coefficient of variation seems very narrow to me. It seems that you would almost have to agree almost 100% of the time with your fellow voters, no?
That factor of greater than or equal to 0.2 coefficient of variation seems very narrow to me. It seems that you would almost have to agree almost 100% of the time with your fellow voters, no?
0∈
[?]
LYTRO. The new light field photography. Refocus your shots AFTER you have taken them. Just click on the word LYTRO. See a VIDEO HERE.
1+1=2 2+2=4 4+4= WTF has this all got to do with art?
0∈
[?]
"Windows 95 is a 32-bit extention to a 16-bit patch for an 8-bit operating system that was originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1-bit of competition."
Nothing. It was a question about the correlation coefficient. I didn't make that criteria up, but I am expected to understand it, so I asked. Is that too difficult to comprehend?
0∈
[?]
LYTRO. The new light field photography. Refocus your shots AFTER you have taken them. Just click on the word LYTRO. See a VIDEO HERE.
is there a pill for that?cause i need one.
0∈
[?]
"Windows 95 is a 32-bit extention to a 16-bit patch for an 8-bit operating system that was originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1-bit of competition."
To put you in the statistical ballpark, look at this document:
'Understanding Correlation Coefficiency' ("Spearman's Rank Correlation Coefficient")
Although referencing the Spearman's Rank Correlation Coefficient ... it suffices to explain/answer your question.
Note the "Note 2" graphic in the above linked document.
If the correlation coefficient is anything less than 1, there is not a 100% positive correlation between whatever is being considered.
So..
Where the Art Council is concerned, and in particular the correlation coefficient of greater than, or equal to 0.2 ... the Art Council members' voting need only be ('weakly' and) positively correlated to that of the overall groups' voting behaviour.
'Understanding Correlation Coefficiency' ("Spearman's Rank Correlation Coefficient")
Although referencing the Spearman's Rank Correlation Coefficient ... it suffices to explain/answer your question.
Note the "Note 2" graphic in the above linked document.
If the correlation coefficient is anything less than 1, there is not a 100% positive correlation between whatever is being considered.
So..
Where the Art Council is concerned, and in particular the correlation coefficient of greater than, or equal to 0.2 ... the Art Council members' voting need only be ('weakly' and) positively correlated to that of the overall groups' voting behaviour.
0∈
[?]
Mike, you are a mod and as such are supposed to be role model. That you are so sarcastic to me and others in these threads and offer very little in the way of maintaining civility and substance to the subject under discussion leads me to question whether you, as a mod, would have good reasoning ability and discernment for deciding the final outcome of any image put before the AC membership. In other words, you are giving 'mods' a bad reputation. Can we return this thread to some semblance of honest, open discussion without sarcasm, sniveling and snideness, please?
2∈
[?]
LYTRO. The new light field photography. Refocus your shots AFTER you have taken them. Just click on the word LYTRO. See a VIDEO HERE.
Thank you, Les.
0∈
[?]
LYTRO. The new light field photography. Refocus your shots AFTER you have taken them. Just click on the word LYTRO. See a VIDEO HERE.
yea below
1∈
[?]
"Windows 95 is a 32-bit extention to a 16-bit patch for an 8-bit operating system that was originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1-bit of competition."
Musical interlude..
Help yourselves to some refreshments and cookies.
(*points to table*)
... ...
... ...
Welllll, I am not sure what happened? As there were cookies there just a short time ago..
... ...
(*dusts crumbs off of lapel*)
:oP
Help yourselves to some refreshments and cookies.
(*points to table*)
... ...
... ...
Welllll, I am not sure what happened? As there were cookies there just a short time ago..
... ...
(*dusts crumbs off of lapel*)
:oP
1∈
[?]
Well !!!
Invited for cookies and music - and cookies get eaten by the host.
Just as well the music is good!
Musical interlude critique:
Good focus and clarity . Invites the viewer to take part and is most relaxing.
Lots to look at but main theme not lost.
Conveys a thought provoking message.
Music is a unifying force.
Art is too :)
Cookies would be also if there were any left.
Invited for cookies and music - and cookies get eaten by the host.
Just as well the music is good!
Musical interlude critique:
Good focus and clarity . Invites the viewer to take part and is most relaxing.
Lots to look at but main theme not lost.
Conveys a thought provoking message.
Music is a unifying force.
Art is too :)
Cookies would be also if there were any left.
0∈
[?]
My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
So I've got enough images in the Main Galleries but I'm not going to end up back on the AC unless I nominate more windmill pictures?
0∈
[?]
"In the beginning, there was nothing. Then God said, "Let there be light". And there was still nothing but you could see it." -- Groucho Marx
Curious as to what the minor changes were/are by those that voted for this option in the poll?
Are they simply related to that of:
i) Addressing the issues of multiple/similar images being promoted?
ii) Increasing the number of nominations? (<-- Which, by the way, the system in place already accounts for ... more successes of 'your' nominations leads to being able to nominate more images.)
Or..??
Are they simply related to that of:
i) Addressing the issues of multiple/similar images being promoted?
ii) Increasing the number of nominations? (<-- Which, by the way, the system in place already accounts for ... more successes of 'your' nominations leads to being able to nominate more images.)
Or..??
0∈
[?]
One of the advantages of my suggestion of artists nominating their own images, is that it would teach people to appreciate what is good and what is not. If an artist had a number, say 10, images in the main galleries, they should by that time understand what is needed to be a member of the judging panel, and be placed in that position automatically.
2∈
[?]
"There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs." Ansel Adams - Gallery - Web Site - follow me on Twitter.
After a good deal of thought I believe nominating own images has a lot of merit.
Perhaps seconded by a simple majority consensus of image mods before being put to the AC vote.
It appears there are 20 Consuls & Praetors - so 10 votes with a majority of yesses should be a good indication of agreement.
Perhaps seconded by a simple majority consensus of image mods before being put to the AC vote.
It appears there are 20 Consuls & Praetors - so 10 votes with a majority of yesses should be a good indication of agreement.
0∈
[?]
My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
Thanks, Les, for the wonderful musical interlude. I am for nominating images that I produce.
0∈
[?]
AVATAR BY PJ............... I'd like to thank those of you who have been so kind as to add my photos to your favorites. Please Visit My Gallery
I really don't care anymore.
0∈
[?]
LYTRO. The new light field photography. Refocus your shots AFTER you have taken them. Just click on the word LYTRO. See a VIDEO HERE.
I've put an option up on the Suggestion Poll.
This one:
'Allow members to nominate one image per month to be forwarded to the Art Council.'
Chris' suggestion seems to account for multiple and similar imagery, that seemingly.. is agreed upon, as one shortcoming of the current process in place.
Annnnd..
I do agree with him that forcing 'us' to look at our own work with a more critical eye, might alleviate any other shortcomings (i.e. it would follow that 'we' would be nominating the 'best of our own personal best' for consideration by the Art Council).
Art Council selection of Art Council members can remain the same, and/or ... be continued to be tweaked.
Art Council still has a say in what the site promotes in terms of imagery.
Win win?
This one:
'Allow members to nominate one image per month to be forwarded to the Art Council.'
Chris' suggestion seems to account for multiple and similar imagery, that seemingly.. is agreed upon, as one shortcoming of the current process in place.
Annnnd..
I do agree with him that forcing 'us' to look at our own work with a more critical eye, might alleviate any other shortcomings (i.e. it would follow that 'we' would be nominating the 'best of our own personal best' for consideration by the Art Council).
Art Council selection of Art Council members can remain the same, and/or ... be continued to be tweaked.
Art Council still has a say in what the site promotes in terms of imagery.
Win win?
0∈
[?]
Right.. almost forgot..
(*replenishes refreshments and cookies*)
(*replenishes refreshments and cookies*)
0∈
[?]
There are reasons for the one a month figure. It seems sensible to me that, unless you are a stunningly good photographer, and I know there are quite a few on this site, one a month is enough to ensure that your best images get put forward and would not swamp the Art Council. It may be the figure should be 2, or something else, which can be worked out later, but the concept seems sound to me. With 700 active members that should generate enough images to keep the Art Council employed.
I do feel there is a role for the moderators to pick up any that do not get nominated as well as tidy the galleries as well, in fact, moderate.
I do feel there is a role for the moderators to pick up any that do not get nominated as well as tidy the galleries as well, in fact, moderate.
6∈
[?]
"There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs." Ansel Adams - Gallery - Web Site - follow me on Twitter.
I like the idea of nominating our own images. One a month would be about 1 in 5 for me, which seems high, but less than that would probably be frustrating to the more prolific members. Or maybe the number allowed could be relative to the number of our uploads.
0∈
[?]
"In the beginning, there was nothing. Then God said, "Let there be light". And there was still nothing but you could see it." -- Groucho Marx
That number can always be refined/tweaked, Hannah.
Could be..
Something similar to what is in place with respect to that of Art Council nominations. More successes = more images being able to be nominated and forwarded to the Art Council.
Or, something along those lines.
Option up on the Suggestion Poll:
This one..
'Allow members to nominate one image per month to be forwarded to the Art Council.'
Could be..
Something similar to what is in place with respect to that of Art Council nominations. More successes = more images being able to be nominated and forwarded to the Art Council.
Or, something along those lines.
Option up on the Suggestion Poll:
This one..
'Allow members to nominate one image per month to be forwarded to the Art Council.'
0∈
[?]
I'm afraid the more successes/more nominations formula would be problematic for our own images. It could lead to a few "popular" members dominating the galleries.
0∈
[?]
"In the beginning, there was nothing. Then God said, "Let there be light". And there was still nothing but you could see it." -- Groucho Marx
You may be correct, Hannah.
Maybe placing an upper limit on the number of images, then? (2? 3? ... per month)
Might work towards mitigating any sort of, kind of ... 'favouritism'. If, I understand you correctly here.
Maybe placing an upper limit on the number of images, then? (2? 3? ... per month)
Might work towards mitigating any sort of, kind of ... 'favouritism'. If, I understand you correctly here.
0∈
[?]
That is where the AC would come in - simply nominating an own image would not ensure its promotion.
Surely the object is to have the best displayed and if that means some members would end up with more than others nothing would have changed - it is like that now.
It could just be that their images are popular rather than them being popular members as such.
I am not sure that allowed nominations being relative to the number of uplads would be fair - I could upload 60 substandard images in a month and someone else 2 exceptional ones - so why should I be priviledged to nominate more?
Chris's explantion of one per month sounds good - although I would go for two or even 3.
Also if it were to come into being I think it should be retrospective - probably most of us have images from the past we think are worth consideration.
It should not be a self serving exercise to get more of our own images into the Main Galleries but rather to ensure the best are chosen, regardless of who created them.
Putting our own images forward ensures that everyone has the chance to have an image considered irrespective of numbers, friends lists or 'popularity'
Surely the object is to have the best displayed and if that means some members would end up with more than others nothing would have changed - it is like that now.
It could just be that their images are popular rather than them being popular members as such.
I am not sure that allowed nominations being relative to the number of uplads would be fair - I could upload 60 substandard images in a month and someone else 2 exceptional ones - so why should I be priviledged to nominate more?
Chris's explantion of one per month sounds good - although I would go for two or even 3.
Also if it were to come into being I think it should be retrospective - probably most of us have images from the past we think are worth consideration.
It should not be a self serving exercise to get more of our own images into the Main Galleries but rather to ensure the best are chosen, regardless of who created them.
Putting our own images forward ensures that everyone has the chance to have an image considered irrespective of numbers, friends lists or 'popularity'
0∈
[?]
My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
Popular images, popular members, the result is the same - a "certain sameness" in the Main Galleries. I'm not talking about overt or intentional favoritism, just going by what I've actually seen happen.
Maybe the monthly limit is the best. The photographers are likely to have more images just by the nature of things (unused fractals on my computer: about 40; unused CG work: about 35; unused photographs: about 1300) ...
Maybe the monthly limit is the best. The photographers are likely to have more images just by the nature of things (unused fractals on my computer: about 40; unused CG work: about 35; unused photographs: about 1300) ...
0∈
[?]
"In the beginning, there was nothing. Then God said, "Let there be light". And there was still nothing but you could see it." -- Groucho Marx
As long as the AC is made up of members then some images/genres will continue to be more popular than others - I do believe that everyone being given the opportunity to nominate their own images may go some way to allieviating the 'sameness'
Any voting system by its very nature leads to a certain amount of 'majority rules'.
Are images popular because of their creators, or members popular because of their images ?
Popular = "Regarded with great favour, approval, or affection especially by the general public"
I actually have some favourite images by artists I personally do not feel any great affection for !
:) :)
Any voting system by its very nature leads to a certain amount of 'majority rules'.
Are images popular because of their creators, or members popular because of their images ?
Popular = "Regarded with great favour, approval, or affection especially by the general public"
I actually have some favourite images by artists I personally do not feel any great affection for !
:) :)
0∈
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My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
I'm just saying we shouldn't make it more of a potential issue by tying nominations to promotions. It's one thing when we can nominate anyone's images - the number of deserving images is theoretically limitless. But even the best artists can only produce so many good images in one month.
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"In the beginning, there was nothing. Then God said, "Let there be light". And there was still nothing but you could see it." -- Groucho Marx
The windmills are an illustration of what I'm talking about. It's probably less likely that one artist would nominate all their pictures in a set, but it's certainly possible. The point of limited nominations is to give the artist a chance to choose the best (or force the artist to choose, as the case may be).
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"In the beginning, there was nothing. Then God said, "Let there be light". And there was still nothing but you could see it." -- Groucho Marx
Even if an artist wanted to nominate a set it would take a long time at 1 a month and spread the images out in the main gallery. The more I think about it, the more 1 seems like a good figure to me. We want the main galleries to be the best, the very best. That is, not just good images but absolutely stunning images. Even prolific members do not necessarily produce a lot of stunning images.
Perhaps awards could be given to artists to increase the figure. Perhaps a competition award, or more general awards, like artist of the month getting 10 extra uploads.
Don't forget, the moderators still have a role to play, perhaps that should include nominating images they feel worthy as well.
Perhaps awards could be given to artists to increase the figure. Perhaps a competition award, or more general awards, like artist of the month getting 10 extra uploads.
Don't forget, the moderators still have a role to play, perhaps that should include nominating images they feel worthy as well.
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"There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs." Ansel Adams - Gallery - Web Site - follow me on Twitter.
Lyn; aka LynEve said;
"Also if it were to come into being I think it should be retrospective - probably most of us have images from the past we think are worth consideration.
It should not be a self serving exercise to get more of our own images into the Main Galleries but rather to ensure the best are chosen, regardless of who created them."
No one is suggesting that the one image per month be necessarily from that month's 'current' pool of images for any member.
If inclined, a member would be free to forward any image from their galleries. Past.. or 'present'.
However..
I think the probable 'success', if I may use this word ... of an older image that for all intents and purposes has been overlooked (i.e. not nominated by members already and/or passed over by the Praetors) being promoted after such.. should be weighted accordingly **in a member's mind before considering forwarding such a nomination.
/\ This is just my opinion.
And as stated, no image is being suggested to be precluded from being forwarded for consideration by the Art Council.
Option up on the Suggestion Poll:
This one..
'Allow members to nominate one image per month to be forwarded to the Art Council.'
** Edit.
"Also if it were to come into being I think it should be retrospective - probably most of us have images from the past we think are worth consideration.
It should not be a self serving exercise to get more of our own images into the Main Galleries but rather to ensure the best are chosen, regardless of who created them."
No one is suggesting that the one image per month be necessarily from that month's 'current' pool of images for any member.
If inclined, a member would be free to forward any image from their galleries. Past.. or 'present'.
However..
I think the probable 'success', if I may use this word ... of an older image that for all intents and purposes has been overlooked (i.e. not nominated by members already and/or passed over by the Praetors) being promoted after such.. should be weighted accordingly **in a member's mind before considering forwarding such a nomination.
/\ This is just my opinion.
And as stated, no image is being suggested to be precluded from being forwarded for consideration by the Art Council.
Option up on the Suggestion Poll:
This one..
'Allow members to nominate one image per month to be forwarded to the Art Council.'
** Edit.
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Chris?
With respect to this sentence of yours in your post two above;
"Don't forget, the moderators still have a role to play, perhaps that should include nominating images they feel worthy as well."
Are you referring that moderators should be allowed to nominate images for consideration by the Art Council that is one of their own? (That is, if this suggestion is implemented.)
Or..
That moderators should give some consideration, or more consideration towards that of nominating images from the membership? ((We can nominate images just like any other member.)
As it has been brought up by some, that if moderators were to nominate more images from the membership at large ... these might serve as examples in the pool of images put before the Art Council voting members ... of what is looked for when the moderators are promoting images outside the purview of the Art Council.
With respect to this sentence of yours in your post two above;
"Don't forget, the moderators still have a role to play, perhaps that should include nominating images they feel worthy as well."
Are you referring that moderators should be allowed to nominate images for consideration by the Art Council that is one of their own? (That is, if this suggestion is implemented.)
Or..
That moderators should give some consideration, or more consideration towards that of nominating images from the membership? ((We can nominate images just like any other member.)
As it has been brought up by some, that if moderators were to nominate more images from the membership at large ... these might serve as examples in the pool of images put before the Art Council voting members ... of what is looked for when the moderators are promoting images outside the purview of the Art Council.
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Les, can you elaborate on what you mean by 'weighted' ?
Do you have any thoughts on my prior suggestion that own nominations be seconded by a vote of Image mods before AC votes?
You are all human (? I think ?) like the rest of us and just like the rest of us could possibly have overlooked a worthy image in the past - and it would appear (purely from personal observation) that most nominations are currently made on new images.
I was not questioning or suggesting that anyone had suggested or implied any images should be precluded - simply voicing an opinion:)
Do you have any thoughts on my prior suggestion that own nominations be seconded by a vote of Image mods before AC votes?
You are all human (? I think ?) like the rest of us and just like the rest of us could possibly have overlooked a worthy image in the past - and it would appear (purely from personal observation) that most nominations are currently made on new images.
I was not questioning or suggesting that anyone had suggested or implied any images should be precluded - simply voicing an opinion:)
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My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
Edited that post/sentence now, Lyn ... (*points up three posts*).
Carrying on..
"... could possibly have overlooked a worthy image in the past"
Up to the member if they wish to exercise the one nomination of a past image. I was merely cautioning some against the probability of 'success' in these instances given the aforementioned points.
Insofar as mods giving their yay or nay to nominations forwarded by members before being sent to the Art Council?
I don't think that adding an interim/intervening step by the image moderators/Praetors is necessary, with this suggestion.
For a few reasons.
One important reason being changes necessary to the site's code to accommodate such. Trying to minimize that aspect.
Member chooses one image ... per month.
Image is then forwarded to the Art Council for consideration/voting.
Pretty much that is all there is to this, methinks.
Carrying on..
"... could possibly have overlooked a worthy image in the past"
Up to the member if they wish to exercise the one nomination of a past image. I was merely cautioning some against the probability of 'success' in these instances given the aforementioned points.
Insofar as mods giving their yay or nay to nominations forwarded by members before being sent to the Art Council?
I don't think that adding an interim/intervening step by the image moderators/Praetors is necessary, with this suggestion.
For a few reasons.
One important reason being changes necessary to the site's code to accommodate such. Trying to minimize that aspect.
Member chooses one image ... per month.
Image is then forwarded to the Art Council for consideration/voting.
Pretty much that is all there is to this, methinks.
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"should be weighted accordingly **in a member's mind"
Hmmmm..... you are assuming we all have minds then ? :)
See your point about intervention - would you envisage intervening after AC voting?
As far as Image Mod selections go - would they be direct promotions to Main Galleries or would they go through the AC process ?
Hmmmm..... you are assuming we all have minds then ? :)
See your point about intervention - would you envisage intervening after AC voting?
As far as Image Mod selections go - would they be direct promotions to Main Galleries or would they go through the AC process ?
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My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
"See your point about intervention - would you envisage intervening after AC voting?"
No.
Defeats the intended purpose, I believe. And has been noted in the past ... does not seem acceptable to the majority of members.
"As far as Image Mod selections go - would they be direct promotions to Main Galleries or would they go through the AC process?"
Image moderators/Praetors still retain their ability to promote images ... separate from that of the Art Council. To account for those images overlooked and bypassed by the Art Council.
As it is becoming increasingly clear, not many members are waiting or looking past the most recent uploads/postings on the note of nominating images.
Image moderators nominating images to go before the Art Council was brought up/mentioned in the context of providing some examples of what is looked at/for.. when promoting images.
An educational initiative of sorts from this side of the administrative fence, if you will.
No.
Defeats the intended purpose, I believe. And has been noted in the past ... does not seem acceptable to the majority of members.
"As far as Image Mod selections go - would they be direct promotions to Main Galleries or would they go through the AC process?"
Image moderators/Praetors still retain their ability to promote images ... separate from that of the Art Council. To account for those images overlooked and bypassed by the Art Council.
As it is becoming increasingly clear, not many members are waiting or looking past the most recent uploads/postings on the note of nominating images.
Image moderators nominating images to go before the Art Council was brought up/mentioned in the context of providing some examples of what is looked at/for.. when promoting images.
An educational initiative of sorts from this side of the administrative fence, if you will.
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I meant that moderators should nominate images from the membership at large to serve as examples for others.
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"There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs." Ansel Adams - Gallery - Web Site - follow me on Twitter.
if an AC member dont have the "time" to look over more then friends list and a few pages of new gallery then they shouldn't be allowed to nominate.
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"Windows 95 is a 32-bit extention to a 16-bit patch for an 8-bit operating system that was originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1-bit of competition."
It is not just AC members who currently nominate images - nominations are also made by Associate Art Council members who qualify by having one image in the Main Galleries.
I believe ::coram9's comment was referring to the situation should his suggested system of nominating only OWN images come into being. He was responding to a question asked by +purmusic several posts back.
A poster should take the 'time' to read more than just the last post.
I believe ::coram9's comment was referring to the situation should his suggested system of nominating only OWN images come into being. He was responding to a question asked by +purmusic several posts back.
A poster should take the 'time' to read more than just the last post.
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My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
I don't know why people endlessly debate how to fix whatever system that's here,change this change that .Every system that has been put into place here has been a good system if you use it like it was designed to be used.Problem has always been and still is the people using it,that never gets discussed only how to fix a system that's not broke.
Like I stated above
Think there should be no new gallery no perm gallery one big gallery.images should be flagged as new when uploaded then after a week not flagged.there would be no need for AC.I think there should be no voting in fact there should be nothing here on the site that would make people try and compete except the contests.Images should stay up for X amount of time in galleries then site automatically archives them not the mods.everyone would get treated exactly the same problem solved.I also think is a user breaks rules when they upload an image the should lose their rights to upload for X amount of time.
In other words take the people out of the equation
Like I stated above
Think there should be no new gallery no perm gallery one big gallery.images should be flagged as new when uploaded then after a week not flagged.there would be no need for AC.I think there should be no voting in fact there should be nothing here on the site that would make people try and compete except the contests.Images should stay up for X amount of time in galleries then site automatically archives them not the mods.everyone would get treated exactly the same problem solved.I also think is a user breaks rules when they upload an image the should lose their rights to upload for X amount of time.
In other words take the people out of the equation
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"Windows 95 is a 32-bit extention to a 16-bit patch for an 8-bit operating system that was originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1-bit of competition."
I really think if you look around you will find many instances of debate about the users of the systems,in part instigated by the dissatisfaction of those in charge, and you are actually suggesting major changes yourself. Dropping images into an automated machine seems like a major change.
What attracted me and I believe many others to the site is the involvement of members in its operation. It would be a shame if that were taken away.
What attracted me and I believe many others to the site is the involvement of members in its operation. It would be a shame if that were taken away.
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My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
for the life of me i cant understand why members wouldnt want a system that treats everyone equal.
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"Windows 95 is a 32-bit extention to a 16-bit patch for an 8-bit operating system that was originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1-bit of competition."
Personally, until I hear from the guy in charge, I am just going to forget the whole image side of the site entirely.
Going down the old "accept what I cannot change" route.
Going down the old "accept what I cannot change" route.
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-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
Sam wants to ignore the images, Mike wants to leave the people out. What's left?
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LYTRO. The new light field photography. Refocus your shots AFTER you have taken them. Just click on the word LYTRO. See a VIDEO HERE.
Well, we are entitled to your opinion.
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LYTRO. The new light field photography. Refocus your shots AFTER you have taken them. Just click on the word LYTRO. See a VIDEO HERE.
question is are you infavor of a system where all members are treated equal?
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"Windows 95 is a 32-bit extention to a 16-bit patch for an 8-bit operating system that was originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1-bit of competition."
I am in favour.
And by implementing this one particular suggestion, it would mitigate things some.
And by implementing this one particular suggestion, it would mitigate things some.
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"one particular suggestion"
Which one ? Chris's or tbobs?
Which one ? Chris's or tbobs?
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My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust
This one..
'Allow members to nominate one image per month to be forwarded to the Art Council.'
This option/suggestion is up on the currently running Suggestion Poll.
'Allow members to nominate one image per month to be forwarded to the Art Council.'
This option/suggestion is up on the currently running Suggestion Poll.
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Recap of AC Poll, as of this writing here:
Yes, leave things exactly as they are - 7 votes
No, there need to be some minor changes - 8 votes
No, there need to be major changes - 13 votes
No, it should go back to how it was before the AC - 10 votes
Total: 38 votes.
With a clear majority and indication for that of some changes to the Art Council process/system, if not.. major changes.
The suggestion noted in the post above ('Allow members to nominate one image per month to be forwarded to the Art Council'), would mitigate the concerns/points brought forward in this discussion (and elsewhere).
Notably that of; similar and/or multiple images appearing in the Main Galleries.
Referencing those that voted for major changes and reverting back to the way things were before the Art Council ... would this suggestion work for you with respect to your thoughts/ideas/opinions on what needs to be addressed?
Yes, leave things exactly as they are - 7 votes
No, there need to be some minor changes - 8 votes
No, there need to be major changes - 13 votes
No, it should go back to how it was before the AC - 10 votes
Total: 38 votes.
With a clear majority and indication for that of some changes to the Art Council process/system, if not.. major changes.
The suggestion noted in the post above ('Allow members to nominate one image per month to be forwarded to the Art Council'), would mitigate the concerns/points brought forward in this discussion (and elsewhere).
Notably that of; similar and/or multiple images appearing in the Main Galleries.
Referencing those that voted for major changes and reverting back to the way things were before the Art Council ... would this suggestion work for you with respect to your thoughts/ideas/opinions on what needs to be addressed?
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And if anyone is interested, wading through the discussion above.. one particular suggestion has emerged. This one:
'Allow members to nominate one image per month to be forwarded to the Art Council.'
Fair and equal to all members.
This option/suggestion is up on the currently running Suggestion Poll.
'Allow members to nominate one image per month to be forwarded to the Art Council.'
Fair and equal to all members.
This option/suggestion is up on the currently running Suggestion Poll.
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Some suggestions that were put forth on the Poll's discussion thread:
i) Members forwarding a personal choice from their galleries for Main Gallery promotion/ Art Council consideration.
ii) Limiting the number of nominations by Art Council members for a given time frame.
iii) Increasing the number of nominations by Art Council members for a given time frame.
iv) Introduce a time delay (appearance of the 'nomination button' on an image's page) before an image is eligible for nomination.
... and so forth.
This discussion, however, is centered on the exact 'whats' of the options that were put up in the poll.
If 'you' (speaking generally here) voted for:
1) "No, there need to be major changes"
What exactly, in your opinion, are the major changes you think need to be made?
And similarly, if 'you' voted for this option:
2) "No, there need to be some minor changes"
What exactly, in your opinion, are the minor changes you think need to be made?
Feel free to share your thoughts/ideas and elaborate on what changes 'you' feel need to be addressed.
As well as, and if applicable ... the 'how' the changes could be implemented.