http://www.adhdvideo.org/SchoolPsychiatry250.asf
For the ones who disagree about medication to kids with learning problems or other social related problems..LOOK at it!!!!! I really hope that people will engage themselves in this because it can be your kid/s who will be next in this circus. ADHD are mostly medicated with Ritalin which is a class 2 drug according to the Drug Enforcement Administration, which is the same class as cocaine and amfetamine.Do i need to say more? Well Look at the 12 minutes long film and give me your reflections.

"BUT I must also say that the tone is what people relate to or fight. I am not a mindless drone." where do you see that? nowhere has that been written about you or anyone else refered to as a "mindless drone"... as for the tone... what is your problem with the tone... as far as I can see its fine... no one is being abused... no one is being singled out... and its definately not aggressively written... its just facts and opinions..... from the way i have read the posts.. your the one who comes across as slightly aggressive.. we all have our opinions and ways of writing our views... no one is the same in the language.. and I think tommy is doing a great job getting his point across considering English is not his language...

To akashastrega: I agree about a lot of things u say and i hope you dont feel that i try to point out you as a bad parent. I dont know you so i dont value you in any way.
I think the problem is that its not only 1 percent that gets this medicines and thats what i trying to point out here....Unfortunately Psychiatry dont know which kids that might react in a dangerous way because of the medicine and that is also a reason for my opinion.

I know that kids can be very difficult to handle and i do understand that because i have 2 myself and one of them was very active when he was younger. We put him in a club for gymnastics and he went out very well, in fact he becamed Swedish champion for juniors. ( Proud Dad) For me the risks with medication is too high and here in Sweden Ritalin has been forbidden for 37 years (until this year) because of the catastrophe it caused in the middle of the 60s with a lot of problems with addicted people. Sometimes we can learn a lot from the history and in this case i think we Should!

And i fight against Psychiatry and the Drug companys not YOU. You are not responsible for the lack of knowledge that Psychiatry has, You are not responsible for that Psychiatry almost always use medication as a treatment for all kind of problems. Yes my Tone is hard because the result of Psychiatry in our society has always been a disaster and Psychiatry has a responsibility for their history too,. so yes i think they deserve a lot of criticism and they have a lot to take responsibility for.

For me its not the right perspective to say that one percent may be helped of the medicine, what about the other percents, the other kids that died or becomed addicted and marked as not "normal, what about them?

When I criticise the use of medicines I look at the big picture, I cant go in and discuss single parents choices, I have to look and see what it does in the whole society, is it creating better responsible happy beeings or is it creating marked low toned people with an addiction
and the idea that they have to live with this "dissease" because they can never get rid off it because its a dissease and it would only gets worse if they dont use the medicine?

A medicine that helps one and destroy 10 is not a good medicine, because it will do more harm than good in the society, and thats the viewpoint i discuss this issue from. Finally i acknowledge you for helping your kid and feeding him with REAL food and protecting him for beeing labeled, that talks for that your a caring parent who wants to give your kid/s a good start in life.

I remember the Neurosedyn Kids:(http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/N/Neurosedyn.htm ) who was borned with no arms and very deformated bodies. The doctors prescribed it for pregnant woman as an antiemetic. BAD mistake!
ECT: ( Electric Convulsion Therapy)
(http://www.idiom.com/~drjohn/ect.html ) is still in use. The doctors say its safe..Experience tells something else.
Lobotomy: http://www.hubin.org/facts/history/1900_history/treatment/treatment_6_en.html )The doctors said it was safe, Experience tells something else. And then..
Ritalin:
(http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/ritalin.htm)
The doctors says its safe (even if they might tell the traditional side effects) So what do we learn from that? To be at least a little sceptical? Or, that Psychiatry has proven to be a very safe instance that never make any mistakes? I want people to think twice and be awared of the risks they take if they decide to search help from Psychiatry.
Dont be surprised if it takes less than 30 minutes before it will be talk about mediciations.
Thats their thing, thats their profession. Thats why we are overwhelmed with Drugs for almost everything, Psychiatry has transformed us to a chemical thing and forget the spirituell aspect of life. Thats a very bad mistake!

Well well well... The medical association has just discovered that white bread can be the cause of a childs behaviour and not add ... amazing how "they" discovered it now when many other people already know that and have been trying for years to get through to their thick heads... soon they will be saying "oh its the additives and preservatives.. " duh!!! once again a lot of people know about these especially red food colouring... more and more parents are turning to orgainic products and have found amazing results.... a friend of my family has a daughter who was diagnosed with adhd... they didnt want their child on Ritalin so they went to a Naturepath, they changed her diet to all natural products (no preservatives or additives) and after a few weeks her behaviour was very different... they started with bread.. change from white to brown or multigrain and that was the turn around in behaviour... the rest was easy... so if you have a child diagnosed with adhd, add etc.. try changing the diet.. no junk food or white bread is a good start, and you'll see the difference...

Diet is a very important part of childrens behavior as well as exercise.

Most definately... but a lot parents dont see that.. things like McDonalds is one of the worst things for kids... it's full of preservatives and additives...

To Kimcande: Do you suggest it instead of medicines to kids with this problems? To try alternative ways?

We have had this discussion, you and I. I think diet and exercise are important but I think meds are needed in some cases. They are usually automatically given and at times the dosages are not accurate nor is the medication. You and I have debated this issue and we do not see eye to eye on it. So go on and debate it.

We never came to the important part, because you seems to leave things when you have no answers. I give you one more chance. How do you justify that a medicine that can cause suicide or suicidal attempts are still in use and that no one knows when they prescribe it who will be the next victim? I have a parent besides me who has lost her child by the use of this medicines. She is VERY interested to hear your answer!

You will give me one more chance? Who do you think you are? I have told you what I think. There will always be sad stories. Perhaps you could bring this up in your next Scientology meeting. I personally am not choosing to take on the world. Perhaps you should address this to a psychiatrist...his response may be to get out his pad and write you a presciption for meds.

I am sorry though for your loss. That I mean sincerely. I understand you want to change things. Keep on working for your answers and I hope you find them. As far as my " always seeming to leave things when I have no answers" I am not leaving things for that reason. As I repeatedly have told you we either agree to disagree or have no further contact with each other. Either one I would be comfortable with.

Amen Kim.
My best friend completed suicide mostly in part to her use of a cocktail of fertility drugs, wellbutrin, and something to help her quit smoking. It has been almost 2 years, and not a day passes that I don't miss her desperately. I am very personally aware of the potentially devestating effects that drugs can have...still, I am not on a mission to save the world. If I hear that someone is considereing a drug as help for something, I will suggest other alternatives for them to look into or to at least get another opinion...BUT...I have seen cases as I have said before, where these drugs have had a positive effect on someone that truly needed them. I guess as with all things, one must question the "cure" as much as the "disease" and weigh the options carefully. So I guess for me, instead of being against the drugs, I would say, try and use common sense and don't always buy the miracle snake oil without checking into it first.

And as I have said before, I feed my kids mostly organics, rarely do they get fast foods. They have taken vitamins since pretty much day one. My kids CHOOSE green tea over soda, and tell grandma that McDonalds isn't healthy and can they go to sweet tomatoes instead. YET, if my kids began to be self-destructive as my friends kid had, and I had exhausted ALL other options, I would consider a low dose of medication IF it was needed to help them. Luckily, they have rarely ever been sick, and they are not "ADHD" afflicted, so I have not been faced with making that very hard decision that others have had to make.

Quote"You will give me one more chance? Who do you think you are? I have told you what I think. There will always be sad stories. Perhaps you could bring this up in your next Scientology meeting. I personally am not choosing to take on the world. Perhaps you should address this to a psychiatrist...his response may be to get out his pad and write you a presciption for meds. " End of quote

It wouldnt surprise me at all. He probably have an addiction on that action! Well if you are here in a tread about this issue maybe its natural to discuss what this thread is about, right? I have respected your wish of not talking personally about this things so lets leave that . But if you are here in this tread you shouldnt be surprised that i ask you things because that is a part of the idea i suppose. Sure you dont have to answer, but dont complain about that i ask you. Well anyhow i think it IS important to discuss the risks of the medical treatment just for the reason that no one really knows in what way kids react on this medicines. No one knows if it will be your kid that will commit suicide or not, that control is not available in case you dont lock in your kid and personally watch them all the time. Every person in this chain of medication has a responsibility for their action whatever you think so or not! What is so wrong to try to protect kids from wrong treatments? Its not to take on the world its just to help Kids who cant stand up for themselves in the adult world. I will never stop to fight against this treatment to kids. Its not right, and believe me it will be even more problems in the future if this continue....
Its already a big illegal market for this stuff and as more people who use it as bigger that problem will be too..You dont have to take on the whole world to see that, its just to open our eyes and look in the right direction. But thanks for your answer i give you credit for it even if it wasnt really an answer on my question, but who am I to ask for that? Im just a simple man who cares very much about children and dont like to see them on legal or illegal drugs..

For the record...
Having spent the past 2 years of my life reading about, and being very active in suicide prevention...there are a number of reasons why kids attempt and/or complete suicide, drugs legal or illegal are but one aspect. Often the case is that they are very much depressed, bi-polar, or a combo and do not know how to handle this problem or where to turn. In many cases drugs have saved lives, in other cases it was poorly regulated or they stopped cold-turkey and this caused them to attempt or complete suicide. Rarely has a well-regulated medication been the cause of suicide UNLESS they were not also getting some form of therapy/peer group help. When I say well regulated, I mean faithfully visiting the doctor, taking the needed tests, measuring the drugs effect in the blood, and going to counseling. Please let us not turn this to suicide, because I can tell you more than you would ever like to hear on the subject. I did lose my best friend to suicide, and as I said it was drug related...BUT...she was not faithfully getting checked, she stopped her Wellbutrin cold-turkey, and she occasionally did Meth to "ease her pain" or as she liked to say- self medicate. She was also severely Bi-Polar with Dislexia a history of sexual abuse, and was attempting again to quit smoking.
I do not agree with drug companies, nor do I think all drugs are good, but as I have said on many occasions, it is up to the individual to use common sense and explore other options/seek other opinions. I have seen both the good results and the tragic results of the use of pharmaceuticals. I applaud you for wanting to be the voice for kids, but would hope that you can keep an open enough mind to see when the drugs are needed and do work. I agree that too often kids are called ADHD kids when they are really above the standard and are just bored. I was considered an ADHD kid (but back then it was learning disabilities) turns out I had learned everything in my class so I tuned it out...my mom listened to the teachers, the doctors and sought her own info. Finally she put me into college courses, and never again did I have learning disabilities. I was hyper-active, she treated this with a daily dose of good strong coffee...not Ritilin. She had enough common sense to look at all options and then decide. I feel the same way. I know some folks are just plain naieve and blindly follow what a doc sugggests. It is these parents I hope you can reach out to. But please, consider that not all of us (as parents) blindly follow a doctors recommendations. I see where you are coming from, but I can also see Kim's point. This is a topic where there is no clear-cut answer. Sometimes it is bad, sometimes it is good. Should kids be on it? Most kids I say no, but there is a small group that could benefit, and this is Kim's point. All I ask is to see that you are doing a good thing, but at the same time understand that there is a small percentage that should be on the drugs and do get help from them. But yes, many kids are improperly diagnosed, this is where the parents come in and hopefully they have enough common sense to look at all options before making the decision.

Doctors medicate for what they dont understand it's called ignorance and medical negligence. Too much time is being wasted when looking to rehabilitate or alternatively control factors out of our spans of control. My very good friend has high level ADHD and complex dyslexia which is not helped by ADHD @ all as a consequence. For a long time he was sedated on numerous types of medication however as a growing and experimenting lad these had sideaffects with the lifestyle he was leading. It is ok to give out a prescription when other variables are not involved. However due to a higher level of understanding about difficult afflictions he has been through University and now counsels young offenders in Nottingham. Because he went PRIVATE and got the level of care he needed only @ a cost. I spent 3 years with him and the highs were good however I did not like his company as he was a liability when he was down. With good friends and family support mechanisms in place this can be alot easier to deal with for the person directly in the situation. I can only imagine the horror if such support was not there. I would not mind however people with disorders such as these exell in whatever they do when channelled correctly. Albert Einstein > Dyslexic , Louis Pasteur, Marie Curie, John Logie Baird (TV). Give them a chance watch the results.

To akashastrega:Thanks for your answer.
This all leads back to the question i asked. How do they justify the use of this when they dont know who will feel bad and get worse problem. One answer. Lack of understanding.
If understanding would be there this could and can be solved without drugs.
I have seen it over and over again with rough cases but it can be done.
I was very sceptical about Scientology before i realised what it was. It was kind of Halleluja and prayers for me ,nothing for me. Then i read a couple of books and i was surprised that it wasnt at all about things that i thought. It Actually was a Science that has collected thousands of thousands thoughts in the subject of the human mind.
It is about Etchic, moral, Integrity, Suppressive factors in the society and 1000 of other things that are directly related to life. What i find is annoying is when people who dont really has looked with their own eyes what it really is, talks about it like they know something about it because they have read the newspapers or had some other second hand information. But whatever, the important thing is that they can handle and are handling this things without drugs and it is easy to find out by ourselfs because its an open organisation. There are alternatives, but sometimes we have to get over the way we judge things without knowing anything about it. Personally i dont care if its Scientology or some other organisation that helps kids about this problems, but what Psychiatry dont have is the right knowledge about this and that is in my opinion the answer for why they use something as sick as drugs to "handle" this things. If we look from an higher point of view we can see that this drugs cause more problems then what they solve, just LOOK at the society and we will see the illegal part, the disabled, the side effects and so on. Its not a Crusade for Scientology because i support other organisations as well that has more knowledge about this problem ,so im open for a lot and i have been in this field for over 20 years so im not a little kid that imagine this things. This is a problem and Psychiatry has not the answer or knowledge for how to handle this things.Drugs is never the final solution for any problem and the history is full of proof for how much harm it does, Whatever it is legal or illegal.

I can see your point, and it is valid. Please see mine. I have seen personal instances where Psychiatry has been very helpful. I have also seen times when it went very wrong. However, the blame should not be put soley on the medical profession or on pharmaceuticals. Each of us as individuals can agree or disagree with the doctors. I am an herbalist and naturopath...I CHOOSE natural remedies over drugs...HOWEVER...I am a severe asthmatic. I can care for myself to some extent herbally and with proper diet, but when my asthma gets so bad that my lungs collapse as the are prone to do, drugs have saved my life. Do I like taking epinephrine or prednisone??? No, they make me restless, sick to my stomach, jittery, and give me headaches and makes me retain an uncomfortable amount of water. Do I take them despite these side effects. Hell yes I do. Because they keep me breathing when all other methods have failed. Kids can't always make these choices for themselves, so it is up to the parents. Some parents like myself, look at all options, weigh all the pros and cons, and do a ton of research. We get second and third opinions. Other parents blindly follow. For them, I would hope that the medical industry closely watches them and adjust the meds slowly and as needed....and don't cold-turkey the kids. Yes there ARE other methods. Yes not all kids really have ADHD or need ADHD meds. For the few that are please consider that it may be the ONLY means to save these kids. Again it is a small percentage, but they shouldn't be denied just because so many have abused it.
Again I say, I have had very personal insight, both good and bad, on the use of pharmaceuticals. And this isn't (for me) about Scientology. It is about allowing people the freedom to decide. Yes people should be educated and warned. That can be said about MSG, Growth Hormones in food, Spending too much time staring at a computer screen...the world is not natural as it was 200 years ago, but it doesn't make everything bad either. Again I say, it is about common sense and questioning "authority".
I lost my best friend to Wellbutrin. Am I pissed. You better believe it. Do I say don't take Wellbutrin...no. I say make sure you stay up on it, question your doctors, adjust it slowly, etc. It could be easy for me to say Wellbutrin is evil. My best friend is dead because it was poorly managed and when she stopped cold-turkey it screwed her up enough for her to kill herself. It would be easy, but, she was a big girl who could have told her doc about the side effects, who could have done more to actively maintain herself while on the drug (she chose to blow of doc appt's). So can I blame Wellbutrin. Only to a point.
Again, I applaud you for wanting to make this issue known. And again I ask for you to not judge those who truly need the medication.

This is not about medication for asthma, cancers or other such things...

Its about the medication which is being prescribed for behaviour problems they call ADHD which has been proven that it is NOT a disease and CAN be controlled with alternative methods... it has also been proved.. that 99% of children are being treated for behaviour problems with Ritalin etc.. when if it was looked into properly.. would find that they are normal growing children... who are behaving just we did when we were young.. I’m sure you used to run around, be mischievious, throw temper tantrums, get frustrated, show emotions... it’s a very part of growing up its NORMAL... to put a child on these drugs for those things is a very big concern when its part of life... and it is going to get much worse as more and more kids are being "diagnosed".

Even the Medical Associations are beginning to realise that its not a "disease" and that there are alternatives to Ritlin etc... The Medical Association has recently discovered that white bread (one of many foods) can be the cause of a childs behaviour, the perservatives and additives found in white bread can trigger a reaction to cause behavioural problems... it’s also been proven that once the child is no longer eating white bread you can see a significant improvement in the child's behaviour and personality... once the child is no longer eating and drinking items with perservative and additives there is a massive change.. the child is more alert, behavior changes, has more positive look at life... all without the dangerous side effects.. I'm not just saying this as an opinion.. it has been medically proven ... I applaud you for giving your children the best food possible and as you will notice a huge difference from your children to others who do not eat organic healthy food....

There is no reason why these drugs have to be prescribed... I dont know about over there.. but here in Australia.. more and more psychiatrists are turning to natural alternatives.. because they realise that Ritlin etc. can cause major health problems now and later in life...

I think more information about the side effects should be made available and also offer the natural alternatives and how these benefit more without side effects... so parents are aware that they DONT have to take the drugs that the psychiatrists prescribed...

Please re-read my post completely. The reason I mentioned other drugs as well is simply trying to make a point that you cannot soley put the blame on the doctors or the pharmeceutical companies. I DO AGREE that many kids are mis-diagnosed, and as I said before, I was one of them. I am simply saying that the parents need to use some common sense and take responsibility. I made the example of my friend to state that. I cannot blame the drug for her death, even though the coroners report said as much. My friend was just as much a part of it in her decision to quit cold-turkey rather than discuss things with her doctor. It is the same with parents. I am the one responsible for my kids. If I do something that can harm them because I blindly followed my doctors recommendations, rather than getting another opinion, doing research on my own, finding other alternatives, etc, then I am the one to blame for any harm my child may come to. I can say "well my doc said so" but does that make it truth? No.
I am glad that there is a discusion, not just here, but everywhere regarding ritalin and other drugs, but the focus needs to be on educating parents to other options, not in blaming the drug. And this comes from someone who regularly preaches eating organically. When I found out I was expecting, I researched early on about things kids may face. I did this because I wanted to be an informed parent and make the RIGHT choices for my kids. Sometimes I wonder about some parents. No you can't always watch them 24/7, but at least take the time to get to know them and what is going into their body. That's why I find it hard to blame the drug. Yes the drug has some nasty side effects...but if your doc says hey your kid is ADHD...ask, what brought you to this conclusion...don't take it as gospel truth. If the doc says your kid needs Ritilin, say hey doc thanks, but do you mind if I get another opinion first. If as a parent you don't do this, frankly, Ifind it hard to blame the drug or the doc. I am not trying to be insensitive, but as a parent, you better believe I question EVERYTHING.
I agree that everything regarding ALL drugs should be stated. I also agree that parents should have more resources to alternatives to drug therapy. Most importantly though, I think parents NEED to be more involved with their kids in the first damn place.

To akashastrega: This is what i called a discussion! Im glad that you explain your ideas and discuss this in a mature way without beeing intolerante to other viewpoints or throwing disrespectful comments in others face, so thank you for that!
Im not discussing individual decisions i look at the trend we have in the society and that is for me the only interesting and possible viewpoint to discuss.
We have a drug problem in this world on a global perspective. The legal drugs and the illegal, there is no doubt that this is the case.For me there is no point to discuss single parents decision and judge someone for using medicines. And i Dont blame anyone for using this medicines and i have never done that. I questioning the methods Psychiatry are using thats all. That is my responsibility as a human beeing to learn more and questioning things that i can see creates new problems in the society. ( From my perspective) It is the basic perspective in Psychiatry i disagree about. What this medicines do is to change behaviour without finding the reasons behind the behaviour.
Like drugs always has done, We drink some alcohol and our behaviour changes, our problems seems a little less heavy and we feel its easier to communicate with people and so on. We mask the problems and we feel that yeah drugs is a "solution" because we feel a little better ,right? But when the drug is off the system the problems is still there and our capacity to deal with them hasnt increase. So as long as we eat this medicines the behaviour may be easier to deal with for the parents but the problems behind it is still there because problems doesnt dissappear because you hide them. Thats a fact!
ECT is the same thing. It doesnt take away any problems it make the person to forget about them together with other memory losses and this methods builds on the same idea.
To force a behaviour to change without finding the basic reason. Its by electricity or by chemical medicines. So Psychiatrys methods is a method for "changing the persons behaviour" by medical or electricity treatments, and the way it "works" is to hide the problems without confronting them. Lobotomy had the same basic idea, Force the person to beahave in another way, dont find the reasons just cut some nerve ends in the brain and the patient will behave different. OF COURSE they did! They became wegetables!
Medicines is not as scary but they work by the same principle. Change the behaviour, dont confront the basic problem. The chemical inbalance that the Doctors SUPPOSE is the reason for mental disorders are not a proven Science, because if it was it would handle all patients but they dont. Diabetes is threated with insuline and that actually handles the problems with probably 99.9 percent. That works, that is Science. Now they try to treat Mental illness or disorders like they treat Diabetes, just add or stop chemical substance in the brain and they think they fix the problem but they dont. It masks the problems like all drugs do and it actually makes the person less powerful to deal with it in the long run
To change peoples behaviour is not difficult, its a quick fix and that is the way it "works".
To support a person to be more self depended, more happy, more free, takes a lot more knowledge of the human mind and you wont find it in drugs, thats for sure. I agree about a lot of what you say and im sorry for the lost of your friend. If drugs never was the alternative for the treatments of mental problems its still people who will take their lifes thats for sure, But when a doctor say this will help you and you are desperate to find a "solution" i dont think suicide, suicidal attempts, addiction, agressive behaviour, and other side effects is what you really looking for. Its even more dangerous to prescibe something under the name of "Help" because this can make people a little too blind for things that indicates that it doesnt really works that way, but we trust the doctors and the doctor said it can be side effects but thats normal and just give it some time and it will be better. Well thats not 100 percent true. And thats the only reason for why i discuss this issue. No one knows how this medicines works in a indivual perspective, so the one percent that can be temporary helped of it is paid by the other percent that didnt get helped with it. We have to look at the big picture and here in Sweden we have more long termed disabled people together with a high prescription of this SSRI medicines, and it has been proven that as more people who use SSRI medicines as more people get Long termed disabled. That Ekvation tells also a lot about how "Effective" this medicines are.
And why suddenly the "black box" on some medicines?
How come the drug companies didnt recommended that from the beginning? Arent they suppose to know what shit they push out in the society?
This is just my personal thoughts and experience after 20 year in this field .
I dont judge you for anything.You seems to have enough common sense to see clear on this issue.
So thanks again for sharing your thoughts!I

Well with that last post, I must say I mostly agree with you. On that basis, pharmaceuticals SHOULD be held liable. Don't release a drug unless there has been 10 tons of research backing it up. Yes drugs are bad on a general level...sometimes taking that little pill to cure foot fungus is worse than the foot fungus. Or erectile disfunction. Well you can get it on, but what happens when your erection doesn't stop? Some drugs are needed. As I have said, I am asthmatic. I use accupuncture, herbs, and a balanced and organic diet to help control it...but sometimes I can't. The drugs they give me saves my life, but then I have insomnia, weight gain, headaches, etc. I still take those meds because if I don't, I can die. ADHD isn't the same. I agree that too often it is an easy diagnosis. We live in a world that is fast-paced everything. People don't STOP anymore and think, reflect. Too often I am judged by my peers as being some overprotective hippy mom. That's a bad thing? I homeschool my kids because I want them to have a good peer group, and the best education possible--not a bunch of snot nosed, disrespectful brats, and a classroom with too many students and a teacher who wants to help but has his/her hands tied by the state. I feed my kids mostly organic food because the hormones in food has been proven to cause earlier developements, and preservatives have been shown to be a host of many medical problems. I question their pediatrician, and question again. I do this because I love my kids and want to be involved in their lives. For me a quick fix isn't an option. So yes, I can understand your point in fighting against these drugs. I hope you can understand my point when I say that it should also be put upon the parents not just the doctors or pharmaceuticals. There ARE some good people in the pychiatry field who truly want to help though. I said before my cousin is a children's psychologist. He tries everything he can to find out what the real problm is, rather than just dismissing the child as being ADHD. I'm sure he is not the ONLY one in our entire world like this. I do believe there are "chemical imbalances" in people. I have seen my husband Jeckyll and Hyde on me too many times. He was diagnosed as being bi-polar and having ADHD. I think it is a pretty accurate diagnosis. I have tried so many things to help him. So if it can happen to a 32 year old man, I'm sure there are some legitimate cases of it in kids. Again I say the parents should STOP seeking the quick fix and really question what is going on in their kids lives. My girlfirends son has a legitimate problem and meds HAVE helped him greatly. She is also very involved in her son's life. My neighbors down the street pump their kids full of crappy food, let them roam the streets at 10pm, and feed one of them some ADHD pill like candy. I hardly ever see them playing with their kid, or helping her with homework, or do anything with her. She has run away twice from home. Do I blame the drug companies? No. I blame her lousy parents. I'm not trying to say that all parents are crap, or that I should win mother of the year, but it seems to me that parents who are more involved seem to be better equipped to care for their kids.
Does this make sense? I would love to put all the blame for everything bad in this world on this or that, but really one must look locally before looking globally.
And for the record, due to a sports injury when I was a teen (I was a figure skater), I have developed arthritis in my knee. Guess what I took briefly before MY OWN investigating changed my mind??? Yep, Vioxx. It did help alot with the pain and stiffness, but when i started feeling funny I looked into and found it had a lot of problems showing up. Now Vioxx has been pulled from the shelves. Maybe more research should have been done before Vioxx was ever touted as being the miracle drug to help with arthritis. So on that point, we do agree.

My sons friend is on Ritalin and a whole heap of other stuff ... his mother has even had him committed for 6 months.. he is not the kid he used to be when he came out.. he is such a talented musician.. when he is on his meds.. he is so quiet, and like a walking zombie, gets very insecure, his eyes glazed all the time.. he has even told me that he feels like killing himself because of how he feels when hes on it.. when he is off it (because another doctor took him off them) he was full of energy.. confident.. enjoying life.. but.. he had an argument with his mother..(like all teenagers) which ended him in tears and saying he was leaving home.... so she demanded that he be put back on them.. back to being a zombie... its just not right.. and the worst thing about this.. shes studying psychiatry.. pity help him... the major problem with this child.. is the mother.. she is hardly ever home and has had to fend for himself so he lives on junk food... if she bothered to look into it she would see he is craving for his mothers attention and the food isnt helping either.... take him off the junk.. spend some time with the kid and he would be a different person...

To akashastrega:
Dont get me wrong about medicines or even some drugs. I wouldnt like surgery without drugs I try to stay on topic so my perspective in this is limited to the question of threatening kids with drugs. I questioning the basic Science of Psychiatry, The knowledge about the mind, their policys about using drugs before its safe and so on.
I talk about Mind altering drugs ( or whatever you call them). There are absolutely medicines that people has to use, but here is my point: Your Asthma medicine HANDLE your problem, right? So you can trust it and you know it works almost everytime you take it because it works. Like Insuline, like other medicines that has proven to really handle the problem.And we dont see this medicines on the illegal market (as far as i know,) we dont see any bad things happend in the society because of this kind of medicines so it actually makes things better and thats why i dont attack them. Psychiatry is about handling mental problems, or more correct about handling the brain.
So the reason that you can see something of a pattern in the brain on a depressed person is because Emotion are mirrored in the brain. A depression is a low fixated emotionally condition, that by itself creates impacts on the whole body (including the brain.) Low energy level, the metabolism can change, strange pains, weakness, and also other patterns in the brain. Emotions has a very strong impact on our body, very strong!! In fact Emotions is what makes people wanna die, or makes them scream of happiness. Without Emotions we would be Robots. A person that has free Emotions is free to feel happy, sad, angry, Bored, Exited and all the other emotions you can feel but without getting stucked in them and fall in to a destructive life. He can go up and he can go down all depending of what kind of things he reacts to.
He can first be angry when we want him to clean his room for maybe 10 minutes, then his best friend calls and suddenly he is up in Action, then he hangs up and go and eat and he will maybe be a little Bored if its not his favourite food and so on. This is normal behaviour and a good indicator of a person that has free emotions. He is in a good shape!

So as more you try to fixates Emotion as more Robot you will be in the long term. Even without pills ;-)
To be a well behaved kid doesnt means that you have a free Emotion or not, it only means that you are well behaved.You can actually raise a kid to be well behaved but his happiness depends on a lot of other things as im sure you know. So the kid has this medicine that adjust his behaviour (because if it wouldnt it wouldn't "work"), and he still face this ugly things in life and he will still store it in his mind (be sure of that) but he dont FEEL it in the same way because something fixates his emotional feelings. Thats the way this drugs work. It fixates emotion and masks the reasons behind it.
Thats why some parents and teachers applause them because they think that he has to feel better now when he dont scream and do other strange things. Well, this is not about happiness, this is about behaviour judged from an adult point of view. The reason why its important to have free emotions is because it is our way to take OUT emotions that has been Brought IN to us, and also to react in a healthy way to the circumstances around us.
All this mental pictures that we store in our mind is full of emotions and if we just stop this things to come out by medicines we slowly build up an emotional pressure that can make this kids to do destructive things. Because somewhere inside them they wants to feel life by ALL emotions because thats what makes them feel alive...The reason for why we get this strange and destructive behaviour on this medicines is because of this emotionally "hold back" we put the kids emotion into, and suddenly, it explode with the power of all the emotions that has been hold back for a long time, and no one understand how this kid could do this things or say this things.
Oh sorry, The Psychiatrist "knows" what its all about. Its wrong medicine, or to low doze or the "dissease" that causes this. No its not! Its the pressure of withdrawn emotions that finally explode.A free Emotionally condition is life, so when we fixates emotions, ( With pills or not) we are actually as far away from happiness as we can be. Thats why we have so many "Robots" on this pills, and they are not happy they are just stucked!
Thank you again for sharing your interesting thoughts :-)

Well you certainly make a good point there. I still find it hard to soley blame psychiatry though. I still feel that parents really need to be more involved in their childs life. You are right, just because you are not feeling the emotion doesn't mean that the cause of that emotion isn't still there.
I think parents SHOULD play football with their kids, or take them to a dance class, or whatever. For one it is spending quality time with the kid, and second it gives a kid an outlet for their emotions. These days it seems parents are too afraid to talk with their kids. How hard is it to say "honey you've locked yourself in your room, you won't eat, you're always angry, please let me know what is bothering you"?? Apparently it is really hard. I know a woman who diagnosed her kid as having something and needing to be on something. She happened to be going through a divorce and very focused on her anger with her ex that she left her kid out of the loop. Its no wonder the kid was having problems. That isn't a psychiatry issue, its a parental issue. If the psychiatrist agrees and gives drugs without further pursuing the actual issue, then yes, it becomes a psychiatry issue.
I do believe that there are some things that have enough scientific background, like seratonin. Low seratonin levels have been shown in case after case to have physical problems as a manefestation. Seratonin problems (a chemical imbalance) can be controlled in most cases with proper diet and vitamins/herbs. I don't know honestly though, if they are saying seratonin problems are a possible cause of the ADHD syndrome. If so, then perhaps the parent needs to be told of the option of changing diet habits to help. Again, today is a fast paced world where everyone wants the fast cure. It isn't easy to change a kids diet or get a kid to take a supplement, it takes patience, and I think a lot of parents today don't have it. So if it is suggested by a teacher or doctor to take the quick fix pill, they jump on it. And so again, it comes back to the parents.
My kids from early on where given a healthy and organic diet. I don't have any problems with them and sugar. They are homeschooled, we go to the zoo or a park to study when the weather permits. They only get bored when the weather is crappy, but then so do I. Their friends range from 3 year olds to 9 year olds, most of whom are homeschooled as well. Not one of their friends has ever been disrespectful or a "hell-child". So yes I agree that we can teach kids to be "good" kids just as easily as we can teach them to be nasty little turds. When I was a kid, my parents only wanted me to be a kid. No pressure to be some 7 year old rocket-scientist. They talked to me openly about alcohol, sex, smoking, and drugs. I had responsibilities and if I shirked them, there were consequences that they followed through on. Today I go to a store and hear kids TELL their parents to buy them something, and if they don't they call their parents some oh-so-lovely names like bitch or asshole. I never ever dared to act that way. I am 34, and yet so much has changed in so few years. And that isn't psychiatry's problem, it is parenting problems.
I don't argue that a lot of kids are diagnosed with something they don't have, but I feel that it is also pressure from parents to have that quick fix. I am not saying it is all the parents problems, but I feel that it is a synergy between parents and doctors.
Again, I applaud you for taking this up. Ritilin has been around for many many years. I read the other day that elctro-shock treatment is making a come back. Yes these are bad, very bad. For the few it does help, there are many who don't need it. I guess I see it differently in that you feel it is a psychiatry based problem, whereas I feel it lies with parents and doctors, but a lot with parents.

Good points! I agree about that medicines is a decision made of the parents and not the kids.I also agree about the value of how we feed and raise our kids, thats true for me too. I just didnt find it really fit in the matter of this thread so thats why i dont dig in to it so deep. Let's put it like this: People has a responsibility for what kind of society we create, whatever we are parents, Doctors, Schoolteachers and so on.
I started this thread to look at the Psychiatrys Contribution to this society so thats why i focused on their part of it. There are many other aspects of course, and i agree about that Love and caring and to find the reasons for why kids feels like they do and so on is very very important. Absolutely! I know that Psychiatry and the drug companys talks about this Serotonine levels and chemical inbalance and their effects about depression. Its like the hen and the egg.What causes a depression? That the serotonine level suddenly gets down and thats why ,or is it that the persons life gets down and you can trace it in the brain. If you test a person that are depressed and used with SSRI medicines and then suddenly remove the medicine they say they feel worse. Of Course they do, Thats the abstinence and also the basic depression that also comes back. We have to handle the reason behind the Depression always always always. The reason why so many people gets stucked in a long term use of this medicines is because when they stop using the medicines they get cold feet in many cases and get back on the meds again. If the meds would have fixed the basic trauma there would be no use of a long term use and thats the disaster about trusting this medicines to be more than what they are. They masks the symthoms and thats the way they "work". ECT ( Electric Convulsion Therapy) works the same way by forcing a memory loss and when the person not longer remember his problem they say the treatment "work". No it dont work, in fact as better your memory is as better your mental condition is. To have blocked parts of your memory can make a person confused and out of the present time. "Demens" is what we called it in Sweden when old people has lost their memories and are totally confused about their position in time. ECT is just a way to create memory losses by electrical force and thats the only way it "works"
But maybe its a little off topic right now. Well ,thanks a lot again for sharing your experiences and thoughts. I find it really interesting to read.

Just another thing...The SSRI medicine was introduced here in Sweden for about 10 years ago with the promise to Cure or help up people with depression and other mental problems. From that point and up to now the long termed disabled has increased dramaticly in our society. We have cold statistics for how much more disabled people we have got under this period. So its a natural question to ask: How come that a medicine that promise to cure this things gives a result like this? Its around 500 000 people here in Sweden that eats this medicine. And they still talk about underprescription? Do they want us all to eat this medicines or what? I have ask this question to a lot of people who supports this medicine but never get any logical answer. If this was about a medicine that promise to be good for Stomach problems and then we could see that more people was disabled because of stomach problems year after year, would we think that wow this is a good medicine! No i dont think so. So this is the big picture im talking about, this is the only possible way to measure this medicines and evaluate its potential power to help people with problems
Despite the doctors and Drug companys promises SSRI dont fulfill what it promise, thats why i want it to dissappear ASAP! And its the same with the whole battery of anti depressive medicines by the way.

To Kimcande: Here is a little cool down for you. http://www.grab.com/fun/toons/f/50481
Dig it!

I told you that I thought I could still find this one for you.

YAY...Kim found and resurrected this thread...
Can I bash Tom Cruise more???
See my thread on his insistance of a silent birth...he is a mis-informed nutjob who is doing more to harm medical science than just about anyone or anything can. Many biographies I have read on Hubbard, by well researched writers, claim that in the last years of his life, Hubbard was in fact on drugs for psychiatric problems. Wonder what Tom has to say about that. His autopsy showed Visteril in his system...for those of you who do not know...from the Physicians Desk Reference:

Vistaril®
(hydroxyzine hydrochloride)
Intramuscular Solution
For Intramuscular use Only

....

Hydroxyzine has demonstrated its clinical effectiveness in the chemotherapeutic aspect of the total management of neuroses and emotional disturbances manifested by anxiety, tension, agitation, apprehension or confusion.

....

It induces a calming effect in anxious, tense, psychoneurotic adults and also in anxious, hyperkinetic children without impairing mental alertness. It is not a cortical depressant but its action may be due to a suppression of activity in certain key regions of the subcortical area of the central nervous system.

....

Indications: The total management of anxiety, tension and psychomotor agitation in conditions of emotional stress requires in most instances a combined approach of psychotherapy and chemotherapy. Hydroxyzine has been found to be particularly useful for this latter phase in its ability to render the disturbed patient more amenable to psychotherapy in long term treatment of the psychoneurotic and psychotic although it should not be used as the sole treatment of psychosis or of clearly demonstrated cases of depression. ....

VISTARIL® (hydroxyzine hydrochloride) Intramuscular Solution is useful in treating the following type of patients when intramuscular administration is indicated:

1. The acutely disturbed or hysterical patient.
2. The acute or chronic alcoholic with anxiety withdrawal symptoms or delirium tremens.
3. As pre- and postoperative and pre- and postpartum adjunctive medication to permit reduction in narcotic dosage, allay anxiety and control emesis.

Name: Vistaril
Classification: Antihistamines

Hydroxyzine is also an antihistamine. It blocks the effects of the naturally occurring chemical histamine in your body. This makes hydroxyzine useful for treating allergic conditions, especially those that involve the skin, such as hives, itching, and rashes..

If its Vistaril oral then it can be any of these used to treat the following:
Anxious, Allergic Conjunctivitis, Inflammation of the Nose due to an Allergy, Stuffy Nose, Runny Nose, Itching, Welt from Pressure on Skin, Hives, The Act of Calming, SneezingVistaril Oral may also be used to treat:
Nausea and Vomiting, Feel Like Throwing Up, Throwing Up.

If its Vistaril IM it is used to treat the following:
Symptoms from Alcohol Withdrawal, Anxious, Additional Agent to Induce General Anesthesia, Abnormal Trouble Sleeping, Additional Medications to Treat Pain, Nausea and VomitingVistaril IM may also be used to treat:
Severe Itching, Life Threatening Allergic Reaction..

So you cant just say that its for the disturbed, or mental illness, as you can see there are many other symptoms that its used for..

And while this is a thread about Ritalin use... there has been a lot of reports here this week about the side effects... yes even a head psych has admitted that they DO NOT inform patients or parents about the side effects as they dont want to alarm the parents.... nice isnt it.... this came to light because a 5yr old had a massive stroke,, heres the link link now that its out in the open, many are taking their kids off it and using natural alternatives.. finally its being noted that the child can die because of Ritalin...

And what on earth has Tom Cruise's birth got to do with this thread????? so what if they want a silent birth, its calming for the baby and its their business how they want to deliver it, its like people saying you have got to breastfeed your baby or it wont grow and get all these illnesses.. it's a load of bull... not everyone can breastfeed and that has nothing to do with anyone else either... Its up to them, most dont have drugs with birth, others wimp out and do, or they have to have ceasers, if thats the case does having a ceaser mean that your not woman enough for the real thing? as for Scientology, that is their own personal belief, do people critic you about your beliefs and religion?? I get so sick and tired of hearing people slander others because of their beliefs and their personal choices... let them live their own lives...

actually, i am not trying to slander scientology...i was merely pointing out that the whole thing against psychiatric medicine, as has been discussed from a scientology point of view, to me is ironic. and IF you read my thread on Tom Cruise, i am not against silent births...i just find it to be an unrealistic expectation on the part of Tom Cruise, to insist that Katie Holmes remain silent...to the point of acing posters everywhere...please do not confuse my views of him as being my views on scientology.

The discussions on this thread isnt from a scientology point of view.. its based on fact medical and scientific facts

Scientology is always brought up when you point out bad effects of Psychiatric treatment.
Thats nothing new... thats a "rule" that exists everywhere you go.
Connect people to Scientology is the same as to made a person a third grade human being with an hidden purpose and no intelligence what so ever.

So everything he says or point out is not true, because he is just a machine that is brain washed and bla bla. Well for me thats not better than to look down on homosexuals, Jews
or any other religion in the world. I dont care if people dont like Scientology, its peoples own choice, but to connect people with a religion and therefore mean that they cant be analytical or they are not worth listening to is a poor way of undermining people for their beliefs or religion. People have more dimensions and abilities than their religion. But not in a discussion with Psych it seems.

I know why Scientology are brought up by Psychiatrists or people who like them, its the old tactical move of trying to point the light somewhere else than on yourself.
Because if we look a little to close on Psychiatry theres a lot they have to explain for.
For example kids that dies because of their treatment. People that are addicted to legal drugs and the list go on. So its just a normal psychiatry reaction and a way to escape the responsibility for it.

To Debate with Psych needs a new kind of "logical" thinking.
If you want your kid to stay off Junk food it should be better to give him junk food every day
because then the risk that he will be addicted to Junk food in the future will be smaller.. Thats Psychiatry logic. :)

Even if its proven that parents can encourage bad behaviours or bad eating routines by giving their kids bad food or bad parenting Psychiatry has their own kind of logical thinking about that. Is it working? Yes it works from their point of view.
A lot of kids are now eating amfetamine daily so they cant be addicted in the illegal way any longer because they dont have to. So yes, it prevents them from buying illegal drugs ( not totally though)
from "bad" drug pusher.

Then that some instead pushing them to friends and THEY get addicted to it still doesnt make the pusher addicted to the drug. So sure there is some kind of logical thinking in this. It just depends on how you look at it....
Is it my definition of Logical thinking or a solid way of dealing with this problems?
Not even close!

And finally! I dont say that all people who work with Psychiatry are bad people, no way
I know many PSychiatrists who really wants to help people but are finding themselves too tied up with the system and thats where i point my critics. Psychiatry as a philosophy should be more open to take in other knowledges and dont be so conservative and only celebrate their own Technology.

*ponders what a good kick up the arse would achieve instead of turning sprogs into drug addicts*

1) I went through 7 years of therapy & 4 different therapists. I got some stuff accomplished w/the 1st 2, but not alot. With the last 2, I got more accomplished in 1 year with each of them than the 4 years of the previous 2. Therapy does work, but there's alot of bs out there, and the most common mistake is mismatching. Not every therapist is right for every patient, and even if you have the right one, your therapist isn't always correct about everything. Most things, probably, everything, no. A good therapist will help you learn to figure things out for yourself, and allow you to decide what you want to change and help you find ways to do that.

2) When my cousin was 9, she was placed on Ritalin using a blind test. Doctor prescribed 1 week's worth of placebo, 1 week's worth of the real thing. Only the doctor knew which bottle was which. 1st week - no change. 2nd week - teacher called after 2 days and told my aunt "this one's the real thing". My cousin was settled down and organized enough for the 1st time to actually learn & cooperate in class.

While I firmly believe that you should always try to solve your problems without turning automatically to drugs, sometimes they really are the answer. And nobody should be bashed for needing them, or told that they are weak or pathetic or can solve all their problems by placing their faith in some other entity.

Amen Cat!
I'd like to clarify some things before I get bashed again...first, I was happy that Kim resurrected this as it was a good topic of discussion WHEN people kept open minds and didn't jump to conclusions, second, I am currently on a Tom Cruise Bashing kick because the guy annoys me, and no it has nothing to do with this thread, third if I recal reading this thread right (and I could be wrong) Scientology had been brought up, which is why I simply notated the irony of L Ron Hubbards autopsy findings...I like irony. Please don't think it was to bash Scientology because I could really care less about it, and that can be said for just about any religion in my mind. I do find however that Tom Cruise seems to suddenly be the poster child for it, and a bad one at that. I in fact admire Kelly Preston (yes, a Scientologist) because she is realistic, yet has brought MANY things to the public...such as the harm caused by carpet cleaners on young children. After I read the reports she managed to get public, I was like WOW...so many children's problems can be connected to the use of these chemicals...and here we let our kids crawl around on them. So please don't tell me I am anti-anything without first speaking with me. If something sounds plausible I will check into it further and then take a stance.

Now as for Ritalin and Psychiatry to help kids.

As I previously stated, a very good friend of mine has a child who has been on meds for several months now, and is making great strides. He is focused now and able to do his schoolwork, he is making friends rather than being the "weird kid"...and best of all, he has stopped hurting himself. Drugs may not be for every kid, in fact I think most are not in need of them...but for the rare few...I have seen the good come out of it, and cannot in any way say that I would pan the use. My friends son also goes to a councilor once a week and has said that doing so has really helped teach him ways to cope with his hyperactivity, his feelings of frustration brought on by it, and so on. The 2 together have stopped him from hurting himself, lashing out at his family, and at the risk of being criticized for my wording, evened him out. He will be 11 in a few months, and is actually looking forward to his birthday, when before the drugs and councilling, he could care less, or even not want another birthday. And to clarify...I do not know what drug he is on...it may be ritalin, it may be something else. The point is whatever he is on has saved his life, and THAT is a great thing.

As you pointed out about chemicals in carpet cleaner... (which i find amusing that it took a celebrety to make you realise how bad it is)... thats one of the major causes of the so called social disease ADHD, the chemicals in ALL cleaning products, the chemicals in all our processed foods are what sets off the chemical imbalance and it can be fixed WITHOUT drugs.. it has been proven over here many many times that once you put the kids on natural organic food and use natural cleaning things that their behaviour changes.. more and more parents are using this method instead of Ritalin and getting amazing results, plus the fact that because of these changes the parents are taking more of an interest in the child which makes a difference too, there are way too many side effects for Ritalin and that is now being brought out into the open... along with psychs admitting that the side effects are very dangerous and life threatening.. would you put one bullet in a gun and put it to your childs head? pull the trigger and hope that its an empty chamber? nope dont think anyone in their right mind would do that.. well its the same as giving the kids Ritalin, your playing Russian Roulette with their lives it can give your kids strokes, heart attacks, liver & kidney damage plus many other nasty deadly outcomes... As for kids hurting themselves.. i see it all the time, even my sons friends have done it, its all about attention, they want someone to listen to them (i know this because I have talked to many who have done it and its the same thing over and over again, "no one listens to me, no one cares what I do, but when i do this mom asks me questions"... his ex gf has been doing that recently, because they split up, she uses it all the time against him, because she knows he feels bad for her so he will talk to her.. all she wants is someone to talk to her, to notice whats going on in her life, her family dont listen or care where she is or what she is doing (she catches a train late at night her parents dont know where she is or what she is doing), so for her the only way for them to listen and take notice is when she cuts herself or has her tantrums then they jump up and down about her behaviour but once they do that and try to find out whats wrong, she's a different kid... so NO I don't believe Ritalin should be given to anyone no matter how bad their behaviour is because there is always an underlying problem it just needs people to sit down and dig into why and what the problems are it could be lack of parental interaction, it could be boredom, but mainly its to get attention... and its so easy for the parents to drag the kids to a psych tell them that he's playing up, put him on Ritalin so that they dont have to deal with the reality that their kids are wanting some interaction from them... Its like when they are little kids, put a video or tv on for them to keep them amused while you chat on the phone or read a book, as long as you have them "content" you dont have to deal with them.. I also know for a fact that a lot of kids now are playing on this so called ADHD to get the Ritalin and then sell them to their friends it happens everyday in the school grounds... I think its time parents took a bit of responsiblity for their kids behaviour change their diet, stop buying take-a-way for a couple of months, stop giving them food full of sugar and preservatives , but most of all take time and LISTEN participate in their lives then you will see a big difference without the drugs..

I agree that there is alot of abuse of it, but in my cousin's case, we're talking about a 9 year old child who had and continues to have an involved parent. She has 3 older brothers, and she was the baby darling of 2 of them (the youngest had the typical sibling rivalry jealousy). Could she use therapy for other things that happened? Sure. Would she even be able to concentrate long enough to work through any of it @ this point w/out the Ritalin? Based on the evidence I've seen, no. I also don't believe that resolving those issues would change her ADHD or cure it.

The numerous side effects are one of the primary reasons I believe that you should always try to find a way to treat w/out drugs 1st. I agree that we are an overmedicated society and everyone wants the magic pill that will make it all better. We have no clue what taking all these medications do to the rest of our bodies, and we end up taking more meds to treat the side effects. That being said… sometimes… the magic pill really is the answer. It should be the last resort answer, but it is the answer. I don't believe it's equivalent to Russian Roulette, because in the cases where it's necessary, not taking the meds means that person has to continuously suffer something that they don't need to.

I will tell you that I have a condition that alot of people would take medication for. I was determined from day one of my diagnosis to try and manage without it. Most days I'm fairly successful, but I also don't have one of the most severe forms. It's a continual struggle, and I'm ok with that, but if it was any more severe, I would have to be medicated because I couldn't hold down a job otherwise. My life would be completely out of control, rather than the slightly out of control (not much more than the average person) that it is now. There is nothing you could say that would convince me I should not take a drug whose benefits outweighed its' side effects in that situation.

P.S. My cousin's 3 brothers? They've all had varying issues, and one of them has problems that he's needed lots of therapy for, but there was never any mention of attempting to put them on Ritalin, because it just wasn't the solution to the problems they've had. Only hers.

Cat, again I agree with you completely. And as for taking a celebrity to make me see...I don't typically have my carpets cleaned, and when I do, I use a solution given by a Naturopath...HOWEVER, my grandmother is notorious for it, and the article by Kelly Preston came out just as my grandmother was having her carpets done for the thousandth time...so it just kind of clicked because of timing. I have since turned her onto the enzyme solution I use. I am not saying that kids should or should not be drugged...I am saying that yes many are wrongly diagnosed, far too many...but that there are also cases where it is definately needed. And if you'd re-read my previous posts, my friend had tried MANY MANY non drug ways to help her son. It was not him trying to get attention, he was so frustrated by his condition that he would hurt himself. She has ALWAYS been an involved parent who tried diet changes as given by dieticians and other pro's, she tried after-school activities, she always made herself available to her son if he needed to talk or whatever...he is simply one of those rare cases that yes, medicine has done him far more good than natural methods. He is monitored monthly for any side effects, such as kidney or liver problems, and he is scheduled to be off the meds for a 2 week burst in about 6 weeks...as his doc doesn't want him to be wholly dependant on the meds. During that 2 week burst off, he will be monitored to see if he can do it without the meds, or if he indeed needs to remain on them. Please don't let your views against all these wrongly diagnosed kids (which is sad, and the parents should be shot) cloud you on the help that it does give for the few true and rare cases that need it.

In the infamous words of a fictional character ... "I am listening."

This is obviously a highly charged debate. I think ... in my very humble opinion ... that in these circumstances, it is extremely important not to let emotions rule your thoughts.

Articulated thoughts, as there have been many made in this discussion (kudos to all), are better received in furthering an 'argument' ... and I use that word loosely ... in opening someones' mind to alternative ways of looking at something.

I have to say this ... I don't like dissension. More so, I particularly do not like being baited into a discussion with someone who may have an ulterior motive other than discourse. That is not directed at any one individual here. Make no mistake about that.

This is a public forum and I wholeheartedly support freedom of expression. Just take a moment and reflect ... if these were the last words 'we' had to 'judge' you by ... are you comfortable with that? If so, then so be it.

We are all very creative thinkers, that much is obvious in our expressions in the written word as well as the visual. Perhaps, my 'Pollyannic' view expressed above might seem naive to some. That may be true. I offer these, my words, to soothe any persons that might have ended up taken a personal affront to posted responses.

I am still listening ...

YAY for Les!!! In the words of the cyber community...wootness!

I am very comfortable with what I am saying.. i'm talking about medical and scientific results with regards to the medication, what i have been saying is documented in many articles... so i dont take offense or whatever, everyone has their opinion.. this is mine with proven facts not only from media, but from information from psychs themselves.. over here right now it is very much in the limelight in the last week there have been reports of a 5yr old having a massive stroke, another child had a heart attack, 12 kids from a high school bought Ritalin off another kid and they all ended up in hospital from effects... so yes im very comfortable.. There will always be debates over this drug, people who swear by it even though they know what the side effects are until it effects their child then its too late.. but thats their choice i guess... many parents are finding out about the effects now, for many its too late (like the 5yr old)... but this is just my opinion even though it's based on fact, and i know many of you disagree with me thats fine.. you have your opinions..

Right Jackie, we agree that there is a TON of abuse of it, and the side effects can be severe, especially for those kids who don't really need it. It is probably prescribed about 500 times (if that little) as often as it should be. That is the shame of parents who do look for the easy way out, psychiatrists who don't work hard enough, and the entire pharmaceutical industry which promotes the "magic pill" idea.

I think what both Jenn and I are referring to is the other side of the aisle, also based on fact and scientifically documented studies, that ADHD is a legitimate condition for which Ritalin or Adderall or similar drugs are the necessary treatment of last resort when all other things have been tried and exhausted.

ok if its such a wonder drug and so good for the kids why are they hiding the facts about the side effects? and yes the pharmaceutical industry is promoting the idea because it makes them a hell of a lot of money for them.. I have seen both sides and i respect both of your opinions, but i have seen the side effects more often and i have seen how alternative methods have been very very successful many times.. and that is my view and it wont change, and no im not looking at it with tunnel vision.. i've worked with kids who have the so called ADHD therefore i've seen both sides...

ahhhh… there's the catch… and where I think you're reading what I'm saying wrong. I'm NOT saying that it's a wonder drug, I'm saying that it IS the treatment of last resort, and the correct one when all other possibilities have been exhausted. I agree that often other treatments can be quite successful, and should always be explored 1st. This is why I chose from the start to attempt to manage my condition w/out medication. There are days when it's so hard, and I falter and think "maybe I should just go for the drugs", but frankly 4 years in now, I'm beating it, and it's worth it not to put something else in my system that I don't know what the long term ramifications of it are.

Every single drug has side effects, and it's not just this one that we're not informed of the side effects of. I learned the hard way when I was prescribed Prednisone incorrectly, and now I have a nice ulcer that I also have to live with for the rest of my life. If I had been more aware @ 16, I likely wouldn't have the ulcer, but so goes life.

There's an entire culture of overprescribing and looking for the easy way out (I wasn't, I was given the Prednisone in the emergency room). Doctors prescribe completely unnecessary antibiotics for colds that aren't viral thereby creating immunities and superbugs in an ongoing chain that makes you want to run and find another planet to live on before this one goes completely off it's rocker. Unfortunately, I'm a wee tad afraid that it's too late… lol.

I'm simply saying that when it is the last resort correct treatment, people shouldn't be bashed for needing to take it.

Here comes my two cents ... or one and change for the U.S. and I am too lazy to do the conversions in Euros and so forth ... so, forgive me for that ...

It is often the misdiagnosis of ADHD, ADD ... there are now more classifications as outlined in the bible for the psychiatric professions; Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (DSM-IV) ... that lead to and have lead to the problem of overmedication.

Therein lies the problem. The treating professional can make a mistake.

I think, and I believe we would all be in agreement that the results and consequences of those mistakes, when they happen, are disastrous and far reaching for the individual and society as a whole.

Careful observation over a period of time can aid in making the correct diagnosis. Then, comes the question of treatment. The thought of inflicting any unneccesary harm on a child is paramount in all considerations. I truly believe that those in the field follow, for the most part, the first dictum of the Hippocratic Oath. "First, do no harm."

The question of available resources, both time and money here ... may compound some of these errors. That is most unfortunate ... and yes, that is an understatement.

Cat, I agree. I think we all agree that the drugs are horrible. I've been on Prednisone for my asthma, and damn do the side effects screw up the system...but it keeps me breathing. I think we all agree that chemo side effects are miserable...yet I need to take chemo. The same can be said for Ritalin and any other drug. Drugs suck ass on the side effects. However...when they are absolutely necessary, and the proper diagnosis/treatment has happened...no one should be bashed for taking it. This is where i stress keeping an open mind. If someone said to my friend that she was a bad mom for agreeing to put her son on meds, I'd feel a strong urge to kick them in the shin! She is a fantastic mother who pretty much exhausted every natural form of treatment options before reluctantly agreeing to meds. She is very anal that his blood levels are checked, and she watches her son closely. In his case meds were the right treatment, and they have helped him so much, that he feels like a boy again rather than some walking mess of a person. Drugs are not good by any means...but sometimes they are needed, and sometimes they do work. Don't put down someone for making that tough decision.

For a person who cant solve his problem the psychological way drugs might seems to be the answer.Thats what drugs do.They make you feel a little better, thats all. But theres always a price you have to pay. I dont know from what kind of viewpoint you guys look at this, if its strictly from a personal experience or from a "birds view".

The things that annoying me is that 9 of 10 drug testers are paid by the drug companies. This has create a profit controlled market where a lot of side effects never reach the patient. If a patient knows ALL the side effects then it would be ok and his own responsibility if or if he not choose to medicate himself or his kid..

Thats not the case unfortunately...Every side effect that might seems to reduce the chance for a medicine to make a profit is easily hidden and thats why most of the dangerous side effects are shown first when the medicine has been a while on the market.

Then its FDA or some other instance who brought the light on it. Meanwhile this is going on people are still eating this medicines without a clue about this side effects. Suddenly someone dies or get some serious side effects and then its time for action and black boxes and so on... This is not the way Health care should be managed.

Patients have a right to a full updated information about what the medicine has done and what it can do. But in the same time this is business for the drug company, they have to take their part of the market and that is unfortunately making peoples health a second hand issue.

And of course i let people decide if they want to put their kids on medication, but they should have the whole picture and history of what this medicine also have done to harm people really bad. That kids have died of them is very serious.

APA declared that they dont have any blood tests or anything to validate if a brain disorder really exists. So if a person is messed up and feel bad about life its not because of lack of amfetamine in his brain, because Ritalin works perfectly on kids without ADHD as well.

I never deny that the symtoms exist, why should I? I have seen them with my on eyes, i have treated my own son for it.

The problem with drug addiction is that you have so much fun on the way to become one. Drugs might seems to "help" people, millions of people over the world would gladly celebrate the effects of drugs and how good they feel when they take them.

They may do that as long as the drug corrects something and make them feel better,And they wants to feel good all the time so they take this drug more and more often and suddenly they have been addicted to it. Just like that! And now its not about a little kick here and there, now its about to survive the next day and the next and the next...

A medicine that generates a higher risk for teenagers to get in touch with this potential scenario cannot be called a serios treatment. We cant just forget all the kids that are using this illegal and also dies of overdoses. As more pills we have to treat our psychological problems with as more problems do we get, whatever the Scientifical explanation are..

No one is debating whether drugs have crappy side effects, or that abused they can become deadly, or that pharmaceuticals are all about lining their own pockets...at least I am not debating that...I agree...my point was that there are a few cases that are legitimate and in those cases when other options have been exhausted, drugs may help. I have seen it with my friends son. I just don't feel it is right for anyone to make her or any other parent somehow feel that they are crappy parents because they have done everything they could before finally deciding to try a prescription.

All drugs are crappy. Like I said, I am taking chemo...it is universally known that chemo sucks ass...what are my options...hmmm...chemo or...let me think...a painful death. I'll take the chemo thank you. This can be said of all drugs. Drugs by their nature are a mixed bag...but sometimes...yes there are times...the help from the drug outweighs the nasty side effects. The difference is whether you have a good doctor who monitors you closely or a crappy one who writes a prescription then never sees you again.

It does also harken back to the parents. If parents are open with their kids about drug use, be it prescription or street drugs, then they can lessen the chances of abuse. If the parents remain involved with their kids, then they become the front line for helping them.

My point though, as I believe is also Cat's, is that when drugs become the final and only option, people shouldn't be blasted for choosing them. It is a hard enough decision to make without someone in their face criticizing them for it. Sometimes drugs are a necessary evil. Period.

# 1.... I never insinuated at any time that your friend or anyone else was a bad parent
# 2 ... I was not "bashing" anyone
# 3.... I was not talking about asthmatic drugs or chemo drugs.. these are a life saving medicine for unfortunately very real illnessess and yes they have side effects too but they are to be taken to survive... totally different..

All I was pointing out was that the drugs are not necessary for the so called ADHD or ADD as it has been proven over and over again and what the side effects are... oh and btw I have seen with my own eyes kids who have been diagnosed as extremely severe ADHD or ADD change without the use of drugs.... we have a program over here that is being used in hospital and institutions called the Dore Program, which is an exercise program to stimulate the brain.. it has excellent results by combining this program as well as a change in diet...
But as I said earlier you have your opinion and I have mine...

This is for me not a way to criticise parents. I agree that we have use for drugs in the medical area but for me that doesnt include medicines for psychological problems unless thers IS a brain disorder that you cant manage in another way than with medicines.
To use medicine for anxiety, depression etc year after year is often leading to an addiction to the medicine and also a social situation that can be miserable and i dont think thats what we should head for.

Then all parents are not the same, some parents are more educated in the psychological way of dealing with problems, some are busy with their job
and are looking for the quick solution. I dont judge them for it but it is a reality we cant deny exist. If more parents would look for more information on this subject im sure they would learn a lot more about that this problems can be handled without drugs.ADHD is not a brain disorder that is scientifical proven, a lot of kids are restored from this symtoms
without drugs and thats for me a proof that this disorders are to easily labeled on kids.

This may be a little off the topic but, does anyone have any personal knowledge of/ or thoughts on the pros and cons of lithium for treating manic depression (bipolar disorder)?

I'll respond to other above discussion later (just as soon as I can think a lil clearly. lol) but in the meantime:

Pat I don't have any personal experience of taking it, but I do know that it helps people who have severe forms of the condition. I knew somebody back in school who had it, and I saw her off it one week, and she was a wreck. The reason most people don't like to take it that I'm aware of is that it both can leave you with a "muffled" feeling, and while the low stage sucks, the high stage can be quite enjoyable.

The two most common misconceptions of bi-polar are:

A) The idea that Manic and Depressive are the 2 poles. Those are the 2 most recognized, but there are actually more poles, and a more correct description of them is "High Stage" and "Low Stage"
B) That it is always a severe condition. There are actually quite a few more bi-polar people around than you might imagine, but unless they have one of the more severe forms, they don't seek treatment. If you don't know that you have it however, even a moderate form can have great impact on your life.

This is another condition, like most psych conditions, that there currently is no definitive test for, but has key indicators.

Suggested reading for personal viewpoint: "An Unquiet Mind" by Kay Redfield Jamison.

Sidenote: While it certainly does appear randomly, there is some evidence out there that Bi-Polar is an inheritable condition, much like Alzheimer's.

Thank you so much Cat for the above info and reading suggestions...I will try to get my hands on them...your help in this regard is very much appreciated as it has come to my attention recently that a relative of mine 'may' be suffering from this...thanks again.:Pat.

A couple of quick signs you can look out for:

1) Does this person sometimes have really outlandish impractical ideas that they try to carry through with?
2) Do they exhibit "splurge" behavior? Spending out of their means on really unnecessary things? Go through stages of eating everything in sight?
3) Have wildly varying views of both their personal world and the world at large at different times? Totally contradicting views?
4) Go from wanting to be @ every party to not wanting to leave the house and back again?
5) Have really creative excuses/reasons for not attending some event they normally would?

My husband is moderately to severely bi-polar. His highs are high...his lows are intense...and sometimes when he jits his lows, we go on suicide watch. He had taken Prozac for a time and it worked wonders. He was not a zombie, but he also didn't swing so high or low. Unfortunately we don't have medical coverage for him right now as he isn't working...and I live daily wondering where he will "be". With the drama in my life currently, I have been paying extra close watch on him, as he has been showing signs of a low swing...and as I said, his low swings have been suicidal in the past.

I know there is no actual testing that shows this stuff, but I live with it daily, and I cannot believe that it is not a real condition that afflicts people. Just because you cannot prove or disprove something, doesn't mean it isn't true. For those who live with bi-polar disorder, be it the person or their family, it is very real. I do not know about lithium for treatment, as I said my husband used Prozac with some success. Sorry I cannot help you more, but hopefully I showed that it can be nerve-wrecking for everyone involved.

I've been reading this thread off & on for the past few days & as far as I can see, both sides have valid points. Both of my children were born with learning disabilities & they were never on any kind of medication for it. Including my son, who was diagnosed with dyslexia, problems in sequencing, attention difficulties, hyper activity, test anxiety, plus others, ...he was born with an underdeveloped brain. My daughter had many of the same learning disabilities though she wasn't hyper or ADD. My kids were always very active, had plenty of friends & did all the things teen-agers should do & they had a happy life.
They were both very athletic, Benjamin played softball,baseball, soccor, football, basketball, & golf. Desiree was a cheerleader for 6 years, plus girls softball & soccor. Both of my children graduated from high school & went to college & graduated from that too.

Yes, it took Desiree 5 years to get through college. And yes, it took Benjamin 8 years to get through college. They graduated the same year, though they're 4 years apart. But in our house, growing up, it was always understood by my children that they would go to college & I didn't want to hear any sad stories either. And dealing with the emotional fallout of learning disabilities is, IMHO, even harder then dealing with the disability. We were told our 9 year old son was suicidal ....I was suicidal on hearing that news ! So I dragged him to a child psychiatrist 2 x a week for a year.....until his rage was worked out.

Because of my epilepsy, I had felt that my medication caused their problems until I found out that LD is inheirited. Regardless, I would have fought any suggestion of medicating my children for this. I have seen a friend of mine who's little boy was severely ADHD & he was on meds .....he changed radically & it saddened me.

I agree that sometimes medication, in some instances, is very much needeed. My father was Bipolar, & in a manic state he decided he had no friends & up & sold the family home, a beautiful 5 bedroom home on 3 acres, to move miles & miles away from everybody into a double wide trailer. We weren't living in Ohio then, we were living in Virginia, & by the time I found out what was going on & got home, it was a done deal. Believe you me, when he was off his Lithium, it was noticable.

Thank you soooo much everyone....your info and support is a godsend and strength to me at this time...I have been sick with worry over this.

Well best of luck. Bi-Polar Disorder ain't a walk in the park...but it is survivable...for both the person with it, and the family. Honestly, when I first learned about my husband, I jumped on the internet and started googling. Educating yourself about it is a great way to alleviate fears. Like I said, it depends on what level, but it can be treated with success, and I have known those with lesser cases of it to control it via meditation such as Tai Chi, or through sports, and other ways. The highs are high, the lows can be low...just watch and support your relative and get to know when a shift occurs. Sometimes you can be a better teller of shifts than the person, and this can be key when those lows hit. Good luck to you.

I also think that education is very important when it comes to find a proper treatment for kids with different psychological problems. But i also find that alternative methods is brought in the dark or fight against by the Psychiatry or drug companies.

And what i also feel is strange is that when I tell people that i have handle my son (and others with me)that was diagnosed with hard ADHD/Damp (and he had all the symtoms you can think of )
the first thing that happend is that especially people From Psychiatry just shoot every thing i said to the ground instead of a true interest of what I or other people really have done.

If you really want to help kids with this, isnt it strange that instead of being interest to every kind of advantage in this area (whatever it comes from) Psychiatry instead denies all kind of break throughs from other people or groups than their own profession.

Parents who have handle this are nothing to learn from even if they have had a great succes with dealing with their kids and because of that also had collect a lot of knowledge and experience in the subject. But they are still being easily wiped out in the discussion as "no experts".

If someone had find a way to deal with problems that many suffers from i think its very strange that Psychiatry dont even show any interest about HOW that was made. Shouldnt we LEARN from each other to improve our capacity to help people. I mean think about how much use we have that there is musicians who actually teach other so they can improve their skill. Should we criticise them for having a higher skill than ourself instead?

No i still think that Psychiatry are to conservative in this subject. I ask Psychiatrist here in Sweden about what they do to try to reduce the medicine addiction that people suffers from and that has an up going trend in our society. Nothing is the answer!

In a situation like this, is it a sign of a true humanism to not even consider the idea to find help or alternatives from other sources than their own philosophy? Parents and other groups in the society have a lot to contribute with, they can add pieces to the big puzzle but unfortunately their voices mostly are ignored by the "experts" and for me thats not the right way to deal with this problems.

As long as we are dealing with drugs that can be harmful to our kids i think we have to be open to ALL alternatives and evaluate if there are alternatives that can bring some new light on this problems.

Okay, as I said before, there is an entire culture of "finding the magic pill" that has been occurring in our society for quite some time. It is a HORRIBLE thing, and should be fought against by all means. It is pushed by the drug companies, and the medical community in general that doctors know best/all. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It is every parent & patient's responsibility to research and challenge what they're being told (without going cuckoo overboard), and make sure that the treatment they are receiving is correct. There are many things you can do for yourself that do not involve popping a pill.

My grandparents are currently falling apart physically much faster than they need to because they have relied on doctors giving them this pill or that pill to make them feel better, rather than working on any of the physical therapies prescribed by those same doctors. My mom has done research into exercise programs, and bought them light weights to use, they sit unused in their closet. The only time they've carried through on any of that is when there was a physical therapist there to walk them through it. Now, they've gotten to the point where it's pretty much too late for them, most of the damage is now permanent, and that's heartbreaking.

Let's talk about my mom for a moment… she's a science teacher, used to work in a hospital chem lab, knows lots about chemistry & biology. She has a ton of physical problems and is taking a drugstore. She does do alot of exercise stuff, and has sought out some alternative methods, but some of my sisters and myself think she's the prime example of take the next drug to treat the next symptom. We would love to see her go off all of them except one for a month and see how she fares. I'd bet a month's salary she'd improve so drastically it would be unbelievable. Hmm… I may take another go @ convincing her of this… and bet the month's salary this time! lol

I guess a large part of my problem with this thread has been the way that it attacks Psychiatry. Tommy, I understand that you've had bad experiences with therapists, but my therapist was on board from day one when I wanted to manage my condition w/out meds. Her attitude from the beginning was "Okay, let's see how trying this, this and this will work", working through adjusting what would work, what couldn't be changed & only accepted, and figuring out how to handle those. I know alot of other therapists like that. I know alot of the type that you speak of too, but I think it's bashing the entire community to take the viewpoint that they're not interested in using anything other than drugs.

My godmother who is so dyslexic that it takes her an hour and a half to read one page of textbook, busted her butt to get her PhD in Psychiatry. She did question me about the meds, but accepted my decision and has seen over the years that it's the right decision for me so far. I don't know that I will always be able to manage w/out meds, but as long as I can, I will. I also don't think that even when you have to turn to meds that means you can brush your hands and say "Well, that's it, there's nothing more we can do". No. I think it's a tool that you use to control it for now, and keep exploring other methods.

Most psychiatric conditions are undiagnosable except by key indicators, there are no physical tests for them yet. This absolutely leads to misdiagnosis. There are absolutely lazy doctors & parents who should be ridden out of town on a rail, taken out back and thrown in the duck pond. There are also alot of good ones, and they should be acknowledged, and applauded. Drugs should always be the last resort, but they are a valuable tool when used PROPERLY. I know a number of therapists who may prescribe a medication to a patient to prevent immediate destructive behavior, or get them to settle down enough that they can work through their problems. As the patients work through them, the therapists work on bringing them off the meds, and giving them "coping mechanisms" that don't rely on drugs.

Some conditions don't have alternative methods that work @ this point, and drugs may be a permanent part of life. I don't think it will always be the case for those conditions, just what is right now. It should also be noted that not everyone reacts to the same drugs the same way. We have slight differences in our biological/chemical makeups that mean a drug that works well for one person can be a disastrous thing for another. Take Sudafed… your average over-the-counter cold med, main claim to fame… won't make you drowsy. Oh yeah? Then how come it knocks me out cold in under 15 minutes flat? LOL

I also think that people having different attributes/abilities is something that should be celebrated, not something to be overcome. I read a Ray Bradbury short story a long time ago, I can't remember the name of it right now, but it was political correctness taken to the reductio ad absurdum. The part that I remember the most was the ballerina who was so much more talented and graceful than the others in her company that she was required to wear weights when she danced so she would be the same as they were. Makes me think of a bumper sticker I saw… OH! Gotta go post this on the bumper stickers thread… "Normal people scare me".

On another note, reading further back up this thread… Clay, you sound like an amazing man and person… Kim, how wonderful that you found him and recognize what you have. I can only imagine that you are as amazing as he is since he chose you to be his. 8•)

Again Cat, you hit it outta the park.

And again, I don't think anyone here is saying :"drugs rock, we need more drugs, where's the Pez dispenser". We all agree that drugs can be just as harmful if not more so, than good. The point to remember is that not all Docs are bad. The good ones will follow through with a plan to eventually have you off the drugs. Like Cat said, it isn't fair to bash Psychiatry in general, or its doctors. Yes there is alot of bad ones, but there are just as many crappy garbage collectors, but no one is bitching...why, because people who enter a medical field are always under fire. It is the nature of the beast. But there are those who go into the field because they truly want to help people and will do above and beyond to get those results. I have only once had a doc I idn't like...and it was simply because our personalities didn't jive. I have overcome dyslexia with the help of a Psychologist. I learned how to better control my asthma through a Psychologist teaching me various alternative methods. Like Cat said, not all the docs are bad. Bashing Psychiatry in general is also bashing these good docs who HAVE helped.

Amen Sister!!

Well well...What my point is is that someone has a responsibility for how the situation with "drugs" are. The medicine addicted people who dont function better or feel good has been brought into an addiction because of a treatment delivered by Psychiatry or the general health care and that should be something to learn from instead of something to hide or deny. There is a huge responsibility to take on another persons life and a patient should be treated with the highest respect and not like a chemical machine.

And Yes i know that not all doctors are bad, but too many patient that i have met complain about this and they are so many so thats why i think it deserve to be mentioned and not to be hidden.

It shouldnt be like, well if we have luck we find a good doctor or if we have bad luck we find a bad one. Where is the structure and the working policy in that?
Are you saying that yeah we have to accept that people become addicted to strong medicines that they feel bad of because there cant be a working policy about how Psychiatric drugs should be handled?

Why should we be so understandable about this when people gets mad when their car wasnt fixed properly? You mean that we should just sit aside and accept this because we shouldnt criticise doctors because they are not bad people? It has nothing to do with that.

A person with the best intentions that doesnt have proper tools for how to deal with a problem can mess up things and still be a person that is the most wonderful and caring person in the world.

But should we care about the person who needs help and dont feel he got proper help or should we say that, well doctors are also humans so we cant say they have a responsibility for how much pills they prescribe because there are doctors who dont do it in the same amount.

So what? Its still a METHOD that are used way to often and the ones who know they dont prescribe pills easily dont have to listen to my critics. I dont adress my critics to Dr Smith here, i adress my critics to METHODS who leaves a sloppy and devastating result.
Am i the only one that wants to discuss WHY this sloppy result exists?

I cant discuss from a personal viewpoint because i dont know ALL the doctors in the world but i DO see some alarming result in a lot of societys
and someone also has a responsibility for it. Simple as that.

I think its a disrespectful attitude to people who has been almost fucked up because of medicines to say that ,well remember that there are not all doctors who prescribe pills and you only had bad luck to get one who prescribe them so easily. Come on!

I dont discuss this from my own experience even if i had bad experiences too, but no, thats not what I build my opinion on.I have study this field for many years both national and international and im not alone with this opinion.

There are experts of toxic substance, instances for medicine addicted people, doctors, Child neurologists and other groups that warns for the trend that now are a reality even in my country. For ex, We have been very restricted about the use of Ritalin for many years until last summer when it was back in our society.

I warned for the trend that Ritalin are a very popular drug to use illegally, but most of the people said that no no we have strict control and bla bla bla. Well Ritalin are now out on the illegal market and used by people who no one has any control of.

I mean if Psychiatry and the drug companies have no responsibiliy for this, who have?
Should we blame the person who sell it illegally? Sure we can, but is he the only link in this?

If being a psychiatrist means that you dont have a policy to follow and that you can do whatever you want to treat your patients then there would be something wrong, right?
So how come then that there can be such a difference between how different doctors handle this if they follow the same policy and philosophy about Psychological problems?

Are we explaining this by saying, well the patients are different and so are the doctors so thats why we cant have a similar policy about how we prescribe drugs? Is that handling the problem that are visible in the society every day? Dont think so....

What i also feel is strange is that there are so big reactions about if someone (like me) are criticising Psychiatric treatment but so little notice about that some people dies or been hurted by Psychiatric treatment. Where is the balance here? Who are we protecting?

Compare that more people has died of Psychiatric treatments then the bird flu has caused death.One is a total alarming potential catastrophe, the other is hardly mentioned.
Where is the perspective?

Im here to criticise Psychiatric treatments for one single reason. Its a REALITY that a lot of people suffers from their threatments, its a reality that psychiatric drugs leaks out to the illegal market. Anyone can obseve this if they look.

Is there any reason for why i should NOT criticise Psychiatry and the drug companies for leaving trace like this in the society?? Its not to Bash a certain doctor, its a question about if we are satisfied with this or not, thats all.

As someone said before, there are huge amounts of money made on people who are psychological ill, some people has definately a use of medicines, no doubt about that! But when a person gets his life destroyed because of a Psychiatric treatment then there is something seriously wrong.

I dont care if my critics make me unpopular on a Forum because im not here to make new friends or to be political correct in my opinions. There ARE people that suffering from the treatment of Psychiatry, but when someone mention it there are more talk about how we should understand the doctors than the patient. For me thats wrong perspective.

As Dr Phil said:
"To be able to change something you have to acknowledge the existence of the problem."
I think its time for Psychiatry and the drug companies to acknowledge that their treatments and medicines sometimes destroy people. How would we otherwise see a better scenario?

And yes i agree about that people should get information and knowledge from a wide perspective and not only look at what Psychiatry says about this. If ALL side effects and all problems connected to a certain diagnos were brought up in the ligth i wouldnt say anything about this.

Unfortunately there is a lot of people who says that the doctor never told me about the problems to get off SSRI or other medicines, this is not what they told me! Thats wrong way to deal with people and in my opinion a reason to lose your license.

So come on now and give me some suggestion for how for ex medicine addiction can be avoided, stop defending doctors and look from the patients point of view for a while....

I know personally from the patients view, as I was one, as my husband saw one, as my best friend saw one...and she committed suicide partially because of Wellbutrin...or going off it cold turkey. Do I blame that doctor who didn't follow her closely...hell yes I do! But I have also known doctors who have been of great help. I think the responsibility of drug use is one to be shared by both doctor and patient. Yes patients absolutely deserve a voice, and I am not trying to silence that voice...but I also know doctors who are being thrown into this general statement about Psychiatry, who it is not at all fair to. As I said before, my cousin is in the field. He worked damned hard to get his degree. He takes his responsibility very seriously, and he works with kids...and tries to find alternate means of treatment before ever resorting to meds. It is not fair to him just because other docs in the field possibly suck. That is the point that I am trying to make. Yes it is fair to attack pharmacological companies...they are pretty much all about the money, and yes, Psychology practices could be revised...but to say that the field is bad or the doctors are quacks as a general statement to make a point, is not fair to the ones truly there to help. I guess what I am saying is, if the drug is bad, attack the drug. Enlighten people about the specifics of it. To attack the drug, the medical field, the doctors and everyone is a very generalized statement, that isn't entirely fair.

Well said Tommy!!!

Just to expand on that a little further… using your example of if something is not fixed right on your car Tommy, you blame THAT mechanic, not the entire automobile industry.

There are a lot of psychiatrists and psychologists who are among the very people looking for the alternative treatments, that's why alot of those treatments exist now.

I am most definitely speaking from a patient's point of view. Both as somebody who's been through 7 years of therapy, WITH a therapist who gave me no argument about managing my condition without meds, and as somebody who has a lovely ulcer that I got when I was 17, and will have for the rest of my life with all the attendant diet restrictions, flare-ups and need to be occassionally be medicated due to medical malpractice.

I do agree that the medical field in general needs to be more explicit and open about both side effects and alternative treatments. Other little known information… alot of the new spiffy drugs for all types of ailments really aren't any better than the ones that have been around for the past 40 years. The only difference is the newer ones are still patent protected, so the drug companies get to make money off of them.

Feel free to bash the drug companies in their profit chase. Feel free to bash lazy doctors and parents. But acknowledge the good ones, and that there are quite a few of them out there working to overcome this issue. And bash the medical field in general, because it's NOT just Psychiatry, and singling out this field, which like every other one has both it's good and bad points, does not recognize where the true problem lies… in the entire culture of "Doctor knows best" and the drug companies that play commercials showing you how much better life would be if you just talk to your doctor about this magic pill.

As for suggestions about how medical addiction can be avoided? Well, stop making drugs for profit, that's my #1. I pay alot, and I mean ALOT of taxes. That money is supposed to go for care of my community, invested in schools, paving roads, developing parks and community centers. In my opinion, it should also go for medical care and research. It is not supposed to go into fat cat politician's wallets, and the continual fn gravy train.

YOU GO GIRL!!!
I think the point Cat and I are trying to make, is that blame needs to be put in many places, and that the other side of this is that the good doctors need props for what they are doing to further things. And there ARE good doctors still left in this world. Yes a patient who has been screwed deserves to be heard...but as someone who has only had good and caring doctors who always followed through, I'd at least like them to be noted for their positive contributions as much as the bad ones should be noted for their crappy and hurtful contributions.

It seems that i still cant make my point here. Maybe my english sucks or i dont know.
Well.. I use the car example again.

If you want a mechanic to fix the carburator on your car i guess you assume that he has a knowledge about how a carburator works and a technology for how to fix it.

If you then notice that when you leave your car to a certain company its all too often happend that the carburator doesnt work properly or that the car afterwards got other problems because of the work that the mechanic done . If that was the case im sure that we would wonder if this Company really had the right technology for how to fix carburators. Its not about that the mechanic is bad, its about what tools he has to work with and what knowledge he has to work with. As more he understand about carburators and as more tools he has for how to fix it as higher percent fixed carburators he will have.

Psychiatry should like other instances in the society be questioned and criticised so we have a living discussion about peoples experiences of the help they get. Everything in a society that harms people in ANY way should be inspected, analyzed and criticised so we can avoud similar things to happend again. When the trend is that more kids are on Ritalin, more kids on illegal or legal drugs, i dont feel that neither Psychiatry or the drug companies has done a shit to change that trend.

Im sorry but i cant really see the point about talking about that there are certain doctors that are good and some "bad". The question is, WHEN are ANYONE going to DO anything to change this trend?

Of course there are ethical doctors and less ethical doctors but what does it really matter when people still get addicted to mind altering drugs or doesnt get a proper help for their psychological problems? If THAT trend doesnt change, what does it really matter if we agree about that doctors can act in different ways? The problem still exists, right?

Its time to focus on the REAL problem and to find something to DO about it. Then we come to the real problem: How do you get the drug companies to be more open for no drugs solution when their whole business is based on that people are using their products?? Well , IF their products so easily are pushed by doctors (not all but still too many) of course this trend will continue.

But if Psychiatry was more open for no drugs alternatives that works, that would reduce the need of mind altering drugs
and whatever that makes the profit go down for the drug companies it also would reduce the risks for a lot of people to be addicted to medicines.

And i talk about psychological problems and not somatic problems where maybe the only help you can give is pain killers etc. Im not against drugs in all forms, but they should be treated with respect and not too easily be given for problems that have other causes for its existence.

We will never be better to deal with Psychological problems without drugs as long as this relation between Psychiatry and the Drug companies are as tight as it is now. Someone has to find alternative ways to treat people with and that will never be the Drug companies thats for sure

Finally: i dont try to shoot on anyones experience, good or bad, Im not either here to struggle about who is right or wrong. I just want a constructive discussion about this problems.

Hey wait a minute, isn't Adderall actually made with Methanphetamine?

Adderall is a central nervous system stimulant composed of four amphetamine salts [1]:

1/4 Dextroamphetamine Saccharate
1/4 Dextroamphetamine Sulfate (Dexedrine®)
1/4 Amphetamine Aspartate
1/4 Amphetamine Sulfate

Yep which means its a bad one... and the Pharmaceuticals know about how dangerous it is and still sell it and the psychiatrist know about it and still prescribe it..

Feb. 10, 2005 - Twelve sudden deaths in American kids taking Adderall have led Canada to suspend sales of the drug.

Adderall is an amphetamine drug used to treat children and adults with ADHD -- attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. It's sold in the U.S. in an immediate-release form and, as Adderall XR, in an extended-release form.

The FDA is not following the lead of Health Canada, the Canadian drug regulatory agency. After seeing the same reports in August 2004, the FDA at that time merely agreed to a label change for Adderall XR. That change made it clear that Adderall XR should not be given to patients with heart defects.

Shire Pharmaceuticals - the manufacturer of Adderall -- reported the 12 child deaths to U.S. and Canadian regulatory agencies. They occurred in the U.S. between 1999 and 2003 - a time when doctors wrote more than 37 million Adderall prescriptions for about 1 million patients worldwide. The reports of sudden death occurred in children taking Adderall or Adderall XR.

The 12 deaths were in 7- to 16-year-old U.S. boys. They'd been taking Adderall products for as little as one day or as long as eight years. (so imagine what would happen after a longer period of time)

The following side effects are associated with Adderall Oral:

Common side effects:
Abnormal Heart Rhythm Severe
Abnormal Trouble Sleeping Less Severe
Nervous Less Severe
Easily Angered or Annoyed Less Severe
False Sense of Well-Being Less Severe

Infrequent side effects:
Urinary Tract Infection Severe
Infection Severe
Blurred Vision Less Severe
Dry Mouth Less Severe
Incomplete or Infrequent Bowel Movements Less Severe
Inability to have an Erection Less Severe
Dizzy Less Severe
Excessive Sweating Less Severe
Taste Problems Less Severe
Loss of Appetite Less Severe
Weight Loss Less Severe
Head Pain Less Severe
Fast Heartbeat Less Severe
Feel Like Throwing Up Less Severe
Throwing Up Less Severe
Diarrhea Less Severe
Stomach Cramps Less Severe
Feeling Weak Less Severe
Sexual Problems Less Severe
Altered Interest in Having Sexual Intercourse Less Severe

Rare side effects:
Tourette's Severe
Depression Severe
High Blood Pressure Severe
Heart Attack Severe
Disease of the Muscle of the Heart Severe
Stroke Severe
Inflammation of Skin caused by an Allergy Severe
Hives Severe
Seizures Severe
Fever Severe
Rash Severe
Chest Pain Severe
Reaction due to an Allergy Severe
Mood Changes Severe
Mental Disorder with Loss of Normal Personality & Reality Severe
Anxious Severe
Change in Mental State Severe

OMG, that's dangerous. Those side effects are horrifing.

yep and they are still being prescribed even though the FDA, Psychatrists and the company that makes them KNOW of these.. how many more lives have to be lost before anything is done about these kind of drugs..

And there in lies the biggest evil...the FDA and Pharmaceutical companies! I'd prefer to take them down over blaming the Psychology community...that's me...but I see the FDA as very well paid by the Pharmaceutical companies, thereby approving even the nastiest of drugs for use.

all medications are inherently dangerous and provoke unexpected side effects in small minorities of patients, hell regular over the counter pain killers kill far more people a year than any of these drugs put together and even if they don’t kill you they can do horrific damage to your internal organs.

yes but so are Phychatrists they get a lot of perks from the Pharmaceutical companies by prescribing of these drugs..

as do General Practioners and any other doctor who prescribes you any kind of drug - unless your using a generic medication chances are the doctor/institution who prescribed your medication is getting some kind of kick back regardless of what the drug is.

Yes they are

All this presumes that the person actually needs the drugs. It seems to be the case that many drugs are prescribed unnecessarily....I notice a lot are used on teenagers in the US....

DEFINATELY... that is what this thread is about.. the unnecessary prescription of drugs for the so called ADHD which is not needed.. it has been proven over and over again that it is not needed.. prescribed drugs such as Ritalin has increased by 90% in the last few years not just in the US but here too... almost every family has at least one child on this medication, when all that is needed is a change in diet, things to do, and for the parents, teachers etc to listen and find out what the problem is.. instead of just saying oh that kid is ADHD because he wont sit still, he wont listen, he throws temper tantrums etc... kids are fed junk food more and more these days, foods have heaps of preservatives and additives in them, get rid of that and you'll see a massive difference... most of the time kids wont sit still because they are bored give them something to do instead of turning on the play station or computer.. they are kids.. kids need to run around not play statues, yes they throw tantrums thats part of life and a way to get attention.. and im sure everyone has done that.. kid wont listen because thats what they get when they try to tell what the problem is "not now i'm busy go watch tv etc".. so you find kids are restless etc.. its easier for the parents to take them to a psychatrist and put them on Ritalin instead of finding out what's going on in their lives and what problems they have.. it could be something so tiny or so big.... the drugs that are being described are definately not the way...

semi off topic...
from day one I have fed my kids organic, hormone free foods...and it is true, alot CAN be handled with diet...not to mention hormones in milk have been shown to cause kids to hit puberty earlier...so earlier periods, earlier zits...
Junk food today can be blamed for so much beyond obesity, which is another growing problem in kids...
I am curious about that program you said they have in you neck of the woods...I am not sure if we have something like that here...
I agree that these drugs are bad, but I still say we need to go after the Pharmaceuticals and FDA and those types...because poisoning people with drugs when NOT necessary (sometimes drugs are needed), is all about the Benjamins.

It's called The Dore program.. it was originally designed by a father whos daughter who had severe dyslexia.. but it has been proven and approved to work with other symptoms such as behaviour problems which are supposed to be ADHD.. here's the site link a lot of research has gone into this program which is why it is a huge success.. special education units and facilities are using it too.. I have a friend whos child has aspergers, since he has been on this program there is a huge change in him... its worth a try.. because the drugs are not the way.. They have a free cd that you can get them to send out to you..

They do have them in the USA.. link

Prednisone/Prednisolone (related steroids often used as an either/or situation):

Fluid and Electrolyte Disturbances:
Sodium retention
fluid retention
congestive heart failure in susceptible patients
potassium loss
hypokalemic alkalosis
hypertension.

Musculoskeletal:
Muscle weakness
steriod myopathy
loss of muscle mass
osteoporosis
tendon rupture, particularly of the Achilles tendon
vertebral compression fractures
aseptic necrosis of femoral and humeral heads
pathologic fracture of long bones.

Gastrointestinal:
Peptic ulcer with possible perforation and hemorrhage BINGO
pancreatitis
abdominal distention
ulcerative esophagitis
Increases in alanine transaminase (ALT, SGPT), aspartate transaminase (AST, SGOT) and alkaline phosphatase have been observed following corticosteroid treatment. These changes are usually small, not associated with any clinical syndrome and are reversible upon discontinuation.

Dermatologic:
Impaired wound healing
thin fragile skin
petechiae and ecchymoses
facial erythema
increased sweating
may suppress reactions to skin tests.

Metabolic:
Negative nitrogen balance due to protein catabolism.

Neurological: Increased intracranial pressure with papilledema (pseudo-tumor cerebri) usually after treatment
convulsions
vertigo
headache

Endocrine: Menstrual irregularities
development of Cushingoid state
secondary adrenocortical and pituitary unresponsiveness, particularly in times of stress, as in trauma, surgery or illness
suppression of growth of children
decreased carbohydrate tolerance
manifestations of latent diabetes mellitus
increased requirements for insulin or oral hypoglycemic agents in diabetics.

Ophthalmic:
Posterior subcapsular cataracts
increased intraocular pressure
glaucoma
exophthalmos

Additional Reactions:
Urticaria and other allergic, anaphylactic or hypersensitivity reactions.

Psychic disturbances can include depression, euphoria, insomnia, mood swings, personality changes, and even psychotic behavior



This steroid is used to treat a WIDE array (follow the link on the page for prednisolone also) of conditions, and is the cause of my ulcer. I was prescribed it for asthma attacks I was having, and was given it quite incorrectly. I was overprescribed, but I was 16-17 during the years that I was taking it, and didn't know any better unfortunately. I was not warned by the e.r. prescribing it, nor by the pharmacist, nor anyone else involved how severe the side effects could be.

While I understand the frustration w/the Psychiatric community that some of you have come across, that hasn't been my experience, and I truly feel the problem is not in that particular specialty, but has to do with the pharmaceutical companies @ large, and our governments.

The FDA (Food & Drug Administration) rushes certain drugs onto the market, and delays others for no other purpose than political/economical pressure. The care that this regulatory body SHOULD be taking is more retroactive than proactive, and usually happens after a large number of people have suffered irreversible disastrous consequences.

The Physicians Desk Reference, the major official tool of the medical profession for drug info is free to access their website only if you are a qualifying medical professional. Otherwise you get shunted to another website "approved by the FDA, based on the information contained in PDR". Why can I not get the exact same info my doctor does? I don't care if it's written in Latin & Greek, I want that access tyvm. I do not trust "FDA approved" translations etc.

As I have said before, there is a promotion of the "magic pill" and medical mystique in our society. I don't think ANY drug company should be allowed to advertise anywhere. I think medical information should be as easily accessible to me as it is my doctor. Let ME make the decision about whether I feel the 15% chance of a side effect is worth treating the problem. Allow me the freedom to check out other alternatives.

And if you want to question for one moment if the pharmaceutical companies are really in this for profit, all you have to do is look @ the issues over the U.S./Canadian differences in costs, and the bills that quickly sprung up in Congress to make it illegal for people living in the U.S. to buy their drugs @ a drastically cheaper cost from Canadian pharmacies. The difference is so drastic that it's actually worth it to have them shipped as domestic international rather than get your prescriptions filled @ the corner drugstore.

While I said earlier on this thread that I believe all medical research and treatment should be part of what my taxes are being used for, I do also honestly feel that the moment you make them non-profit, research & advances into all of it will drop off. Our society needs to move beyond the idea that everything is for financial gain before true strides can be made in reforming the medical community & our governments.

Can we hurry up though? I'd like to find a cure for this ulcer 8•)

The companies and the medical association do make a massive profit from these drugs.. the doctors that prescribe them get little perks, therefore they push it even harder...

I agree with you Cat about the Pharmaceuticals and think they should be held responsible...I too have taken Prednisone for asthma, and it works...but...damn if the side effects make it almost not worth breathing easier. As for your ulcer, I know that Licorice, found at pretty much any health food store has been used pretty successfully for ulcers...you may want to research that route a bit, see if it helps.

I've taken Adderal for years, and I've been fine...for me the drug does what they say it does.

Take that as you may.

i'll take that as a very courageous disclosure on your part, about something very personal. my hat's off to you.

but .. couldn't you have told us a year ago

I probably did, one way or another.

A cure is found for teenagers! at last!

Probably coming as equally pleasant news to parents, teachers and angst ridden teenagers alike is the discovery by scientists that has isolated the hormone that causes mood swings and anxiety in teenagers.

Scientists writing in Nature Neuroscience, say it may be possible to reverse the 'puberty effect'. A hormone called THP is normally released in response to stress and It usually behaves like a tranquilizer, acting at sites in the brain that calm brain activity and, in adults and pre-pubescent children, helps someone cope with stress. In teenagers however it promotes the exact opposite reaction.

I'd say someone pass me the dart gun but all joking aside, I'm guessing this could be very good news for countless families across the globe.

To reverse the puberty effect? So basically nobody would ever really grow up?

Wow, that would be like Neverland all over the world.

*starts looking for fairy dust*

the puberty effect as in the inexplicable mood swings, propensity for stress, anxiety and depression rather than the physical ageing effects.....

Oh right... slightly confused there... I still want some fairy dust.

*off to look for fairy dust*

What? And deprive teenagers of some valuable life experience? :oP

Semi-kidding here.

My initial thought though is this ... by shortcircuiting this developmental stage it may indeed turn out to be a bad idea ... in short.

Learning to deal with those emotions is a good thing in my mind.

And I can't help but think that the ramifications of introducing another chemical agent will be a lot farther reaching than what meets the eye.

Having said that ... for those 'teenagers at risk' ... it may be a godsend of sorts.

Drugs is drugs whatever we call them. Drugs has some positive effects on people which is known since long time back.
Drugs "works" and make u feel better for the moment which is also an old truth.

I am glad that we have drugs that reduce pain or knock us out when our body is fucked up. For psychological problems Drugs is just a stupid "solution" even if it looks like its handling the "disorder" or whatever we call it.

The thing is that the drug "works" on any person whatever they have a ADHD stamp or not. So to say it handling the Disorder is not truth, or that it corrects the balance in the brain.That is just PR talk to justify the use of this drugs and to cover up that they dont have more knowledge about the causes behind this problems.

It can take different time until this drugs gives you problem, people are different and react different to drugs.
A society that claims that drugs is the solution for psychological problems will get problems in the future, you can be sure about that.

We already have them coming more and more in different toxidos. And The psychiatrists and the Pharmaceutical companies just claim that its new disorders and the solution for it is again to buy their medicines and let the the Psychiatrist be able to have more patients and therefore get more money from the insurance companies for "treating" more patients. Thats how it works if u just look behind the surface.

So LOOK at the society instead of listening to the companies that has economical interest for selling medicines. Of course they will claim the need for their medicines. But 5 years later they "find out" that people shouldn't take some of them because of the problems they cause.

Thats the ethical level of the pharmaceutical companies.So Let people be the dummies and decide afterwards if the medicine is okay or not . Who would trust a "friend" who treat u like that??

I'm just curious. seeing how you started this thread backin '05, and have gone on at length about how you feel, what exactly inspired this? is a friend, or family member taking these meds?

you seem to have some rather deep-seated emotional issues with this, and if they aren't affecting you directly, or indirectly..i can't help but ask what set you off.

hee hee...
he said the "F" word

sorry...i am on drugs right now...the physical therapist killed me today...thank goodness for percocet!!

now back to the ranting.

To "Third Eye"....

The thing that makes me engaged in this question is the knowledge I have collected through the years in this fields.
Thats all....
Here in Sweden you can find out a lot about how this works thanks to the principle of free access to public records.

So its not more strange than that actually. ;-)

And no, it's not a deep emotional problem for me, its just a normal reaction when u see whats going on behind the curtains. I´f you would have seen it you would react as me. Its easy to just wipe this off as a conspiracy theory or an opinion built on a personal tragedy, but i have tons of facts that supports my opinion so im ready to take on who ever who wants to discuss this seriously

.But i only discuss with people that has at least a wish to discuss this in a serious way. The ones who just like to stick their heads in here and be ironic or just fools cant expect any answers from me.

People are sometimes so streamlined and never look at anything themselves, they just buy second hand information from news that they believe is the "real and true world". How many of this news u see do u think is totally objective?

Ever heard about lobbyism? You would be surprised if you knew how much of the information that reach you from the television that comes from Lobbyism. Political, pharmaceutical or who ever that has the power to effect the media. But that is another discussion. But in this sentence thats why i prefer to look directly on whats going on by going to the source, the test results or whatever instead of listening to the ones who make money of it. They are NOT objective.