Ok normally I wouldn't care, but this is just hillariously obvious.

My image was a 98 today, and another comment appeared on it giving me another 10/10, and by some STRANGE COSMIC FORCE, it dropped it to a 93.

I know I've been in discussion boards and voiced my oppinions and pissed off a few people, but you people have to grow up and not use lame attacks just because you don't like the way I think. I would NEVER do that to you! You people know who you are, and you really should be ashamed that you snooped to the maturity level of an 8 yearold.

Dave, I certainly hope not, because whoever posted that image is clearly holding a VERY big grudge for one reason or another.

oh, what was the image of?

Heres how I vote 9-10 exceptional,meaning this person really knows what he or she is doing.Thought,time,effort and energy went into the project.7-8 above average same as 9-10 but not quite as good.4-6 average, not bad but not great either.1-3 whipped the thing out just to have an upload,small resolution,snapshot style photos and images.0 pictures and images that absolutely no thought,time,effort, and energy are put into,super low res stuff,dog noses and stuff of that nature.
On top of the voting I sometimes leave comments on images that fall in the 1-6 zone,I seldom leave comments in the 7-10 zone because I feel that their ability is far above mine so nothing would be gained,that is besides everyone see how big of an idiot I really am.

my god tbob you think so lowly of yourself lol

Looking through your gallery, I think you should be commenting more. We can definately learn something from you no matter how good an image is.

well heres an example of vote attacking... my hypnotic.. has a couple of 0's and has dropped to 88 link

I posted about this under another topic yesterday. There are people with no life at all who will vote 0 on a good image. Before the "dist" I suspected there were people doing this. Once your image gets into the mid-90's I've noticed them dropping into the 80's in just 1 or 2 votes. The only way it was possible was through "0" votes. It's called "Tall Poppy Syndrome"! ;-) Someone gave my "A Beautiful World" a "0" which I credited to NASA. It's only one of (if not - THE) best image of the Earth EVER taken. Some people are just losers! ;-)

Yep, my latest "hallucination" has gotten 2 zeros out of 10 votes. Guess that's just the way it works.

but but but .. tbob? .. dog noses are cool ... ;o)

hmm....except when they're cold and wet...then it's the stuff of nightmares.....especially if you were asleep at the time.

Meteor: Those votes might have come from the section of users that don't like NASA photo's to be on the site. I've noticed a lot of 0 votes on the space images I've uploaded as well.

You can read more in the space wallpaper discussion thread

The vote distribution is especially an excellent tool for Mods, which can visualize and eliminate "votes attacking" when they choose the images to be moved through the perms...

True, Pierre, but those who intend to cause disruption will find a way around it. It's already happening, as I said yesterday. Despite Dave's "rationalization" for a vote of 4 on a good image, what you will see now is people creating aliases like "JIMPEDER" (happened to me the other night) and voting low, but not as low, and voting low more often to try to create a trend. Heck, Dave already explained how they would do it (" if they have dialup or DSL they can easily change that. Some people may even use a proxy...") In addition, I think what you're seeing is a couple of "cliques" of a couple/few people moving in on the images of people they don't like. It's maddening and hopefully the moderators will be able to pick up on patterns to help them sort out what votes mean what, but putting the distribultion numbers up for public perusal may actually prompt the troublemakers to be less obvious in their tactics....As Vicky said, it's sad, really sad.
Wen

It is sad Wendy, a new age has come for Caedes and now its time to get out of it and soon.

I think you guys are just taking the C-index way too seriously. The c-index is not the end-all and be-all for your images. People's opinions differ, and you will definitely keep getting those malicious voters no matter what Caedes does. I think the real problem lies with the perception you guys have with the c-index.

A low C-index doesn't necessarily mean that your image is bad. Rather pay more attention to the comments people leave and use the c-index as a very very very faint guideline.

Agreed, KJ...the most malicious voters will find a way no matter what, but, unless the problem is identified, there's no chance at all of REDUCING it. As has already been said in this discussion...people work hard on their images. No, the C-index isn't the "end-all" for images, but it IS an important consideration as to whether images get a thumbs up or a thumbs down for placement in the permanent galleries. This place remains a place that I come to enjoy the artistic expressions of others and share some of my own. I don't worship the C-index, but I think it stinks that some people are deliberately attacking others here with votes.
Wen

I think that this discussion should just end, those haters are reading this and laughing which is their enjoyment out of everyone's suffering, so if you have problems, do what the mods said, report it to them, that is what they are here for after all isn't it?

It's not the c-index part that is the probelm.. it is the fact that some members are being attacked!!!! That part needs to stop.. There is sane reason for it.. It only hurts the site as a whole.. It isn't going to drive those of who are being attacked away.. If fact it just makes us more determined to stay and sort this out..

I think Caedes should remove the C-index from public viewing. That way people won't know if an image has a high C-index or not, and so they won't try to vote an image down... but then again NOTHING will stop people from voting low just because they can.

I think you're right, I would like to see the C-Index disappear and have a surprise at the end if it makes it or not to the permenant galleries, hope everyone likes surprised, I don't but I think that is the best thing to do, but as you said, it would stop people from low voting.

Oh, please...change everything to work around a select few creeps who are trying to cause upset? As Ann said, the C-index isn't the problem...there's a handful of troublemakers that are the problem and, as KJ said, the worst of them will continue to be a pain no matter what adjustments are made. That's their reason for being - - to be a pain to others. I suggest that we all take a deep breath. Whatever can be done to ban those who abuse this site should be done. Beyond that, I can't see altering the entire system here to accommodate the childishness of a few.
Wen

I don't think anything can be done, as Dave said, they will always end up back for another attack.

*ponders Predator method*
*moshes to Slipknot*

Oh well....we can only hope that they get a life then.

Please.. I would like mine back..

Ur dead?

No, just tired of this foolishness.. It needs to stop.. I keep wanting to spank the perps..

O! I'm happy you aren't dead!

Have I gone blind or is there no longer a c-index or rating available for viewing?

no, you're seeing quite accurately.

OH ok! Good, good.

Good call caedes.

::Sigh:: Looks to me like the perps just won............

No they didn't Wendy, they still can vote low so no matter what, not allowing anyone to see the c-index doesn't really make them win or lose, they always win until they lose.

No it just deprives every one else of seeing how others rate their images, Andrew.
Wen

Oh, you know what, maybe the C-Index should only be allowed inside the caedes control and not available to see on the image.

I agree bring the c-index back it's not like one bad vote will lower it so dramatically that it could go from 90 to 50 so bring it back please or yes the attackers have won

90 to 50 is impossible but 90 to 80 has happened.

Thanks Caedes for removing the c-index... good move... unfortunately it probably wont stop the low voters or the complaining.... thats life... its going to be interesting to see how certain ones are going to cope without the c-index... they are going to have withdrawal symptoms... maybe you need to set up a counselling section for the ones who are dependant on it... lol
(I posted this on Where's the c-index gone.. thought i'd post here too.. lol)

Whether the C-index is visable or not, vote attackers can still vote low on images. I'd rather KNOW that my image drops from 90 to 74 than to be left in the dark about it. If you're going to continue to have a voting system, at least allow the image makers to see how others view their images. Viewers don't need to know, though I liked the idea of letting viewers see the index AFTER they voted. The way it stands now, unless an image gets a lot of comments, its maker will have no way of knowing whether people like their images or not - - unless the image makes it into the permanet galleries. I happened to like the INTERACTIVE system in which artists could give and recieve feedback on images and I don't know why a handful of troublemakers have been allowed to shut it down....Just my opinion....Whatever..
Wen

But you can't even vote on images, so there's no way to attack :)

That wasn't true a hour ago...Does that please you, Dave?

You can still vote on images. Note the news article that I just posted about this.

Well it isn't now, so now everything is dandy, no it's no issue anymore.

We can now view the success of the image by seeing the download/view ratio along with the comments we recieve.

I am very disappointed that the c-index was taken off. I am new at this and I really valued the opinions of others on Caedes. Not that many people comment, and now I have no idea how my images are being rated. That was helpful to me, as I think it was for many others. I'm not sure that was the solution to this problem.

I feel much the same way you do, Vicky. The C-Index is a kind of peer grading system and I often decided to delete or revise images based in part on how the image was fairing on that scale. I was sorry to see it removed as well and agree that doing so will not solve the vote attack problem.
Wen

well It isn't much of a grading system when It's being abused.

And actually this DID solve the attack problem...since well...now there's nothing to attack! lol

lol! I must say I agree...

How about we use that wise advice given to me several times and "let it go" ;)

Agreed.

How about allowing others to express their opinion, rather than always insisting on the last word, Dave? Who was it that started this thread anyway? The C-index has been an integral part of how people register their opinion on images. Just because YOU now want to "let it go," after riling a number of people up over attack votes for days, doesn't mean that the matter is resolved to everyone's liking. But, I tell ya what I've learned from this. I've learned that it's probably best to avoid these discussion boards because participation often simply results in people trying to get revenge through their votes on images and that is NOT going to stop because the C-index is no longer visable. In fact, I fully anticipate that this very post will get me several ridiculously low votes. I just won't KNOW about it now. Whatever....OK...Feel free to have the last word now....Wen

The C-index system has been abused so badly how could it possibly tell anyone anything?

Good question, Mike....but, as I understand it, the C-index has not been disabled...it has simply been removed from public perusal. So, I ask you, as a moderator, how are YOU going to rely on it to tell you anything? In short, it would seem that the ABUSE, rather than the C-index itself, is the problem....no? Wen

the two are, at the moment, joined at the hip which is why if one goes hopefully the other will go too.

That would seem to be the only logical answer, Phil, unless there is some way of catching and stopping the abuse.....
Wen

As I understand it the two main culprits have already been dealt with.- so hopefully that will be the end of it.

Wendy.. Please, let it go for now.. Let this calm down, so it can be dealt with properly..

Who are they? Shouldn't we be allowed to know?
Anyway, I don't think making the c-index invisible will solve anything.

I would really appreciate it if the fighting would stop.. I don't want to anger anyone, but it only makes things worse to continue this..

dont know and probably not - no. hopefully it will solve things eventually.

I don't see anyone "fighting" at this point, Ann. People are just discussing the situation and what's being done to address it. As Phil said, hopefully the problem will be solved eventually, but it's perfectly understandable that a few people were disappointed that the C-index was made inaccessible. Hopefully it can be resurrected in time.
Wen

I still think there should just be an on/off option in the Caedes Control. I believe that would be a good compromise, eh?

I'll say what all this has done, I'm now quite hesitant to vote at all.

I feel that if I don't award high marks when I do vote "I'm bringing down someone's average" - It all feels overscrutinised. Frankly, I don't feel free to vote my opinion anymore. I always appreciate when people vote - but now I feel a simplified FAVOURITE button or nothing at all is the way to go.

I don't know why people should complain so much anymore, the C-Index isn't gone permenantly, if it were, Caedes would have said that, it'll come back when everyone calms down....

Uh oh, I just realized that this will probably encourage low voters, because now they know the artist cannot call attention to their wrongdoings and keep low voting, undetected.

Very true.

And it doesn't matter.

Well Wendy, this is exactly how I felt when I was told to "let it go". Glad you could see my perspective now.

However, why would you care now if you're getting low votes? If there's no C-Index, than who cares what votes you get?

I think we should calm down before intelligently discussing this. At the moment, it seems a bit heated.

Dave....people are still voting. What do you mean, "there's no C-index?" Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the C-index has simply been pulled from public view, but is still available to moderators. I'm not the least bit "heated." Just looking for clarification.
Wen

not heated? Well I'll take your word for it..

I'm sure the moderators can see the distrobution of votes and decide for themselves what seems like attack votes. They are human after all, and I'm sure they use other aspects of an image other than the C-Index for whatever decision they need to make.

If your image was heavily attacked and got rediculous amounts of 0's, obviously the moderators will look at the image itself and not just toss it based on the C-Index alone.

Don't want to start another fight but you two should just stop talking to each other :)

Thanks for taking my work for it. The POINT is that the C-index is still in place...it has just been taken out of public view so that those who put images up can no longer see how their images are being rated. Not everyone here is pleased with that and I understand why. As others have said, taking it out of public view doesn't make the problem go away. It just hides the problem, and it's hard to REPORT problems that you can't see. Wen

XYZ, We learned from that, and I'm sure we both are mature enough to move on..

Wendy, yes I can see you're point as well. If we look at this on the administrative level however, how would you go about stopping this if you were the webmaster? I mean you wouldn't be able to be online 24/7, and it's very difficult to program something to distinguish an attack vote from an honest one. The only real way to tell if the vote was an attack is to look at the image, but even then it might have been an honest vote that you felt was an attack.

So again, how do you think it should be delt with?

Ok, I guess you're right Dave, you two are mature enough to move on...and I agree with what you have to say, some honest votes are low but they aren't attacks so it is hard to tell which are which but 0s 1s and 2s are very hard to come by as honest when the image isn't made with Paint.

I honestly think that 4's through 6's aren't really attacks. They wouldn't bring down an image really that much, and if they think that the image is average, than on a scale of 0 to 10, 4-6 would be average. There's absolutely no way to make a program read an image pixel by pixel and decide that the image deserves atleast a 5 or whatever -- That's a human thing. So what I would like to know is, what do we expect should happen to stop these attacks?

Most ways many of us would be thinking is most likely not feasable. Just try to imagine monitoring all file sharing traffic and for each file, decide if it's legal or not. That's almost what we are dealing with here.

*sigh.... Fact :- C-Index is GONE... which I personally think is good... nothing any of you can do about it, its been taken because of all the complaining and that it seems the c-index is the most important thing on here... I saw a question earlier about how can we show that we like an image if we cant vote on it... A comment would be a good idea - you can say "I like it, its good even say that you voted a 9 or 8 or 10 or whatever..." it takes the same amount of time typing "I like it, nice work or whatever" as to pressing a number and sending it... try communicating to the artist instead of just pressing a button for a number... Im sure most people would rather have a comment to say good or critic than having to guess what the vote number meant... because everyone has their own opinion on what certain numbers mean to them... I personally would rather a comment to know what people really feel about my art instead of a number , its more personal than just being a number... Caedes you did the right thing taking it away.. maybe now more communication with the artist about their art will improve which has more value to the artist... but unfortunately... there are still going to be complaints because you cant please everyone...

So inconclusion.. =D It's done C-index is gone... dry your eyes.. it's time to move on to the real world now...

You're very entitled to your opinion, Jacqueline, but the point that some of us are making is that the C-index is NOT "gone" - - it's just no longer visable. The issue isn't simply, "how can I make my opinion known about an image?" This thread is about vote attacks, and taking the C-index underground so that only moderators can see it, does nothing to stop vote attacks....COMMENTS aside. I'm sorry you choose to characterize people's CONCERNS in this regard as annoying "complaints." I do not mean them as such.
Wen

Well since the c-index is no longer visible to us, what damage do such attack votes do? If a mod can look at the vote distribution and see zeros and ones, those votes will obviously be disregarded.

EXCUSE ME... I wasnt characterising anything or anyone thank you very much and where did i say that the complaints were annoying? .... and i meant that it was invisible... as for "how can I make my opinion known about an image?" someone else said that.. I was roughly quoting it.... the mods will be able to see whether or not attack voting is happening.. and they will adjust it if they feel you are a victim... and actually this thread started out about attack voting (which has happend to me too quite a few times recently) i agree.. but then it turned to peoples reactions to the invisible C-index... but i'll keep my opinion to myself... dont want to step on toes once again... so if this is offending any of you.. feel free to vote 0's C-index as it isnt one of my concerns.. Caedes (incase you all forgot) is a wallpaper site to show off your art.. not a "my index is 90+ or whatever".... I post images on here to share with other people, to relax and enjoy doing the art and viewing others... its very childish and the ones who are doing it or done must not have much of a life if they can sit here and go through images to vote 0's... I got more important things to deal with than be worried if anyone is voting a 0..

No need voting...If you like my images...just send money to Randy, P.O. Box 420, Cincinnati Ohio, 45245 =0)

Whatever. I just don't know how having a visible c-index is doing that much harm. I don't obsess over the c-index, but its always nice to see a few 90's in the Caedes control.

Well I think I came up with a possible solution that makes both parties happy in this argument. I posted my idea on the main page.

Basically, I think that the voting system should be a privalege that members earn.

Possibly the amount of time the account has been active for, or the amount of Karma accumulated or something of that nature.

The whole underlying idea is that it would make it just difficult enough for an attacker that they just wouldn't bother attacking anymore. You have to realize that these people only do this because they can. They may be jealous or something like that, but the other, possibly more, effective reason is because it is extremely easy just to create another account and vote away.

I highly doubt that an attacker would want to spend the time to create an account, accumulate the Karma needed and stay active for a while just so they can abuse it. Chances are they could care less about the Caedes.net culture to want to spend the time to abuse it.

Let me know what you think.

Maybe we should decide to move all discussion about this to the news item on the main page.

Here, Here Randy! You'll receive my personal check tomorrow. LOL!! I will post date it for December 2006 - by then I should be able to come up with some money! Please hold on to it for me! Seriously though, as I said last night, I don't feel that getting rid of the c-index solves one thing! It doesn't stop attack voting and it removes one way that we have of knowing how people see our images. Enough said! Hold on to that check!

I agree 100%. Now all posts concerning this should go here:
C-index Sabbaticle

I think Dave has a great idea, it should work and I like having privelges, I already have the massive karma, don't know why it makes me feel special *feels embarassed*

This is simply a suggestion Caedes, but how about allowing Caedes members to vote on whether or not they want the c-index visable or not instead of talking the subject to death on this discussion board? Just a suggestion.

there you go again, thinking your participating in a democracy... :-)

lol! (*back to lurker mode, pronto*)

Seriously though, even if I agree that it would seem a good idea to "earn" the privilege of voting or viewing the votes for that matter. I'm not sure this would solve the attacking part really. Just the volume the attacks could be made at (or how to put it). I know this for a fact since I was one of the few lucky ones that got the attention of a few members using multiple IDs, blackballing me with a devastating effect on the c-index. (I am, like you no doubt know, if you have read my earlier remarks in the subject not that attached to it really...) After that stopped I "just" had the regular revenge voting of a steady 0 and 1 on most of my stuff... This I believe was done by members with considerable amounts of karma and galleries of their own, (more or less).

((*lurking even heavier to compensate for my slip-up*))

Your right about the last bit... =)

^_^

(((To lurk heavier? ^_^ No, just kidding...)))

lol yeah that too you lurker

The two-thread discussion is getting confusing.
Please, post here from now on:
C-index Sabbaticle

I'm not even going to try and talk to all the egos here. I would like to ask if anyone ever considers how close some of us have to get to wildlife to take some of our shots? Not all of us can afford high dollar telephoto lenses and all the bells and whistles that come along with them. The effort that goes into a photo should be considered also.If you realized how hard some wildlife shots are to take you might think a little differently in your voting.

Tom. I have had a look at your gallery and I can understand where you are coming from in that you have quite a lot of wildlife images with some low votes. It must be frustrating when you have patiently waited to get the best shot possible with wildlife that does not behave itself only to get a 50, 40 or even worse score.

First point is, as will be said often, you cannot use the C-Index as a good judge of anything. It is quite variable and does depend on who's votes you get as to how good a score you get. A lot of people share your frustration with low scores. Ask fractalists and CG artists, or people that work in B&W. This however does not help you much.

I think the difficulty comes because the images here are not voted on for their difficulty, only for their artistic merit. This is a site for desktop art, and that is its primary function. A very difficult wildlife shot that doesn't look good on a desktop will, I am afraid, get low votes.

Where you have presented a shot that looks good you have high marks. "Out of the Den", "Little Bandit" and "grown up" for example. So do not be discouraged by some of the low votes. I would suggest also that you also might use some degree of post processing to enhance your images. A touch of contrast, perhaps some vignette, and better use of cropping to concentrate on the subject can all help get those marks up.

You have a rare opportunity with your foxes to present some stunning images. Keep shooting and they will come to you, and please keep posting, despite the vagaries of the voting system.

First... very well stated, Chris! Second, another difficulty in shooting wildlife... you do not get to choose the surrounding area... to enhance your photo. Yesterday, I captured an image of a 'medallion'... I moved it from one background to another... and still my daughter suggested yet another background for the image. My recommendation... which doesn't seem to hold water for many... unless you are shooting for someone else... be happy if you like it! :o)