Why some body vote "0" on my best picture 'MIAOU".

That's a real beauty! It seems you have been a victim of "loser who can't be bothered" syndrome. It doesn't seem to have affected the c-index much though, and you will find that the more votes you get on the image the less it will impact on the final score.

Happend to me to. I posted a topic about this yesterday and it was removed for some reason.
I'm not sure why they are forcing people to vote on pictures that might not interest them. A photographer might find it difficult to appreciate fractals... so why make them vote on it?
Don't let it bother you.

OK my friend,I'm a photographer with a very good experience I can evaluate the photographie very well but not the fractal.

The whole point of the site is also to explore different things. Although you might know alot about fractals, you'll still be able to tell if the image is good or not. Be a little daring and be willing to explore new horizons...

I am... and I agree with you to a point.... but it is obvious that some are not.Should they be forced to vote on a picture.....AND not have the ability to make/see comment(s) about the picture they are voting on? There really is no reason to give someone a 0 on their work IMHO.

Unfortunately this is a transition period for most people, and like many things in life there will be those people that are very much against change. This is the group of people that will simply vote zeroes in rebellion against the voting booth. The best option is to just ignore them. In the end one or two or even a few 0 votes won't make too much of a difference since the new voting system compansates for that.

As for the commenting. Firstly people might be influenced by the comments other people have left before them. It's a good thing that the comments are not shown before you have to vote. Just one extra layer of up/down voting protection.

If you want to post a comment on the image, it's very easy to click on the thumbnail of the image in the voting booth, after you have voted, and then post your comment. So it's really not that difficult or time consuming at all.

If you use a tabbed browser, you can even right click on the link, open it in a new tab, and comment to your heart's content whilst you wait for the next voting image to download. Multitasking works very well in this case.

A zero should be reserved for the absolute worst, no effort image you can imagine (see Crusaders guide to voting). Some images deserve a zero, but they only appear very rarely.

The voting guide can be found here.

At the moment most 0 votes will still be revenge/rebellion votes. So don't pay them much attention.

Thanks for the tip about making comments after voting in the voting booth...I wasn't aware. I am fairly new to this site and am not that familiar with the culture around here....and rarely have enough time to read the rules.

No problem. It's easy to miss some of the changes.

It's true that people who only like photography or only like fractals won't always like voting on other genres-- but that's important, so that your c-index isn't just a reflection of the fact that everyone who voted just really like fractals, it can show whether or not people in general actually like the image.

I actually had a couple questions--- for my images at least, as they start building back c-index, are much much lower than before. Is this generally true across the board? If so, good, because I always thought they were all much too high.

Second, I've noticed I'll have an average that is way off from the actual average of the votes as seen on the distribution-- like I have a 43 on one image and the lowest vote was a 5.

C-index distribution

As you can see it is much more realistic and balanced than before.

No my friend some 0 again,2or 3 on good picture.I think sombody have a good c-index vote very low to be the better or new menber with any experience vote low.
The solution is :Take member with good experience and credible for voting
This member will be" voting member".
Sorry for my poor english

I wonder if this is what's going on with my stuff?

*cough* see signature below. :)

I think this new voting system sucks, and I'm thinking of taking my photos off. I try to be fare when voting but do not like 3D images or fractuals so often can't make my mind up about what percent to give, I dont want to be mean but I really like landscapes, flowers, nature etc and find I have to vote for pictures I dont like and would never normally look at I think this is a waste of my time, and very unfare to the people that took the time to make those pictures.

I have to agree with the difficulty in voting on images that I normally wouldn't have as much appreciation for, but at the same time, I have appreciation for the diversity of this site. This said, even if a piece of art is not my personal taste, I respect the work that goes into the piece and I vote based on how much time and effort I feel went into the piece combined with over-all visual appeal. If photographers were the only ones to vote on photographs, you wouldn't have a well-rounded view of your work from the art community as a whole. If it isn't universally appreciated, that will be reflected in the voting of artists from a different genre of art. So relax folks, and think outside the box . . . after all isn't that what art is all about?

Exactly! Before the New voting system, I only voted on photos. But now, I changed! It's not difficult to look and vote for computer generated images. My judgement relates only to aesthetic criteria. All members on this site are able to do the same...

Indeed we are. Live a little and broaden your horizons!

I tend to give a lot of average votes and give higher votes to the ones that look like they put a lot of effort into it. I think I've only gone below a 5 once or twice and that was because it looked like the person hadn't put much effort into it at all. I think that is the way it's supposed to work, isn't it?

This is a relavent problem that Auline brought up. I don't know anything about fractals, and I'm not going to learn anything about fractals - they do not interest me, and regardless of their quality are a waste of my photographic educational time. Thus when I see one I haven't the faintest idea whether anyone put any work into them. Most of them look pretty much the same to me. Really. I spend time on them in the voting booth; I think about each one, but in the end they all look alike. To me there is very little relative merit among them. I do not say this to offend my wonderful friends who make them. I know you all put a lot of work and creativity into your creations, but my non-mathematical mind cannot distinguish among works.

Now because I love this site and its community I will continue to do my best to rate these images, and will never rate low on them out of resentment, but be forewarned - you are dealing with someone having the aesthetic sense of a housecat where it comes to fractals. I am not saying this to try to persuade caedes to change the voting system (He's done enough development work for a while, don't you think?), but I do not think it's fair to dismiss people's opinion with a simple "Broaden your horizons." statement. Auline has a point. Some of us are genuine and permanent morons.

Regmar you dont need to be mathematically minded to decide on the vote for a fractal..

Here's a couple of simple rough guidelines that anyone who isnt a fractal artist can follow.... ask yourself.....

1. Is it clear
2. Does it look grainy usually in the black area you will see it (not good to have)
3. How much detail is in it..
4. Does the colours appeal to my eyes
5. Does the design appeal to me..

same goes for photos

1. Is it clear
2. Is it grainy
3. Does the colour look good or is it too bright, too washed out..
4. Does the light look right.. or is it too dark or too bright
5. Does the photo look in perspective
And most importantly
6. Does the image appeal to you......

I think if you work on those lines you will be ok and fair...
Good luck.. Happy voting... =)

Definitely. It's more or the less the same things I'm looking for in an image. Any image.(I'm not with you on the formulation "Does the photo look in perspective" though... ;) The subject of the photo is more of an equivalent to the abstracts "design" I feel, and in both genres the measure (relative, depending on the viewer I'm sure...) of the creativity and originality used in the piece is a major factor too.

lol, Regmar! ^_^ You crack me up. I can't picture you to be one of those permanent morons. (You have proven again and again you have a great sense for composition, lighting, color, details and execution. It's the only thing you need to use to judge almost any image.)

Not to give votes below 5 unless in extreme cases seems peculiar to me. That seems like voting by the old standard. Sort of missing the whole point IMHO... I wonder how come I seem to see a lot of below average images that deserves on or below 4 or 3. 5 is the average and *many* pieces here are below average. Mine included. I get lots of stinking bad votes. Some I agree on and some I don't. That's life. We can't make everybody happy. To vote higher or lower on a piece just because it is or isn't my own style (or preference) seems a bit awkward to me. Any style can be judged by simple esthetic rules. It's not a matter of liking really. But for me it's sure coinciding. (It's not a matter of how much time is put into a piece either IMHO, it can take me ages to create stuff only to realize it's really a piece of crap.)

I understand people's feelings, but I don't agree that it is significantly difficult to vote on a genre that you are not personally experienced with. If that piece of reasoning was carried to it's logical extreme then hardly anyone could vote on anything. New members would presumably be able to vote on nothing.

I think you just need to look at the aesthetics of a piece of work and decide whether it appeals to you. You can see if a CGI image is pixelated or grainy or badly designed. You can see if the colours don't work well. Similarly you can see if a photo is out of focus or badly composed or poorly lighted.

It certainly helps to have some experience of how a given image is created, but it is just an added bonus - a luxury. In the voting booth I usually tend to find images that I would never have voted on normally, but this is a good thing - it is a challenge.

Crusader said, "The whole point of this site is to explore different things." Really? I thought the point of this site was to display desktop wallpapers and/or artistic images, allowing people to download those that appeal to them for their personal desktop/use, as well as allowing them to share their own work if they choose. What bothers me most about the new system is its "forced" nature. I'm not opposed to "exploring different things," but I find it very condescending that site administrators have chosen to compel people to vote (and now comment, it appears) on images that they do not feel equipped or inclined to vote or comment on voluntarily. There are good artists here who are being treated like children and I think that is showing up in the voting booth and/or a number of talented folks are simply moving to alternative sites where they don't feel pressured to vote or comment on images they don't really have an opinion on one way or another. Not to mention the fact that it appears that voices of dissent are being buried, with whole threads simply removed if comments reflect points of view that differ from those of site managers. Why have "discussion boards" if voices of dissent are simply removed from public view?

I'm surprised that you are still sore about this issue. It should be clear at this point that I'm not going to change the system because some members threaten to leave. If you feel that we are being condescending and treating you like a child then why are you still here? Please by all means go to a different site. I have never pretended that caedes.net was is the ONE TRUE wallpaper site. Here are some links: http://www.deviantart.com/, http://www.photo.net/, http://www.digitalblasphemy.com/. Caedes.net is a different type of site and will not appeal to everyone. Indeed, trying to cater to everyone's hopes and desires is a futile task.

In the end, I think that what many people want is the type of control that they can only get by having their own website. I have my own. This is it.

While were on the subject of new sites here is one that quite a few of the really good Caedes photographers have gone to. http://www.skinbase.org/index.php there is no pressure to vote on this site, just to enjoy looking at all the great offerings. I have posted some of my photos here and meet some of my old friends again. :)

Renderosity.com is another good alternative for fractal artists and those into 3D. I've noted that several artists who posted here previously now have galleries there. Good day to you all. Whereever you park yourselves, keep on making good art! I visit this site for that, not for its voting system.
-Rudy

(lol! OMG, you may be slightly misinformed... I will not discuss this further but why people "don't come here" and now, as you say, have gone to other sites is not always as straightforward as it may seem...)

I hate to say it, because of the anger clearly displayed in this thread, but I do think that those who don't like the way this site is run should state their wishes, and wait to see if those wishes are fullfilled. If not then they should decide how important it is for them to stay here given that their wishes won't be fulfilled. If they don't like it, leave or stop complaining about those specific issues. All of us have from time to time not gotten our way, and have gotten over it. I'm actually surprised that Caedes hasn't thrown in the towel given all the flak he's taken by those who want him to change HIS site.

I have yet to find another image sharing site with the close-knit community that caedes.net boasts. I really hate to see anyone leave, especially on bad terms. But at the same time, I agree with Caedes: You can't please everyone. (Many a politician has died trying) I respect Caedes for his stand on this topic. It's his site, and in my mind he goes out of his way to make it as nice an experience as he can for all the members. When I first joined this site, It was nearly impossible to get an image in the permanent galleries, but the site has evolved. It continues to evolve. We have all grown accustomed to the changes; after time, I feel appreciation will grow for the decisions that have been made.

"Throw in the towel" because a number of people are finding a new voting system that is only a couple of months old problematical? It isn't the "site" in general that people have voiced dissatisfaction with. It's a new rating system that many are finding cumbersome and unreliable. You yourself stated that you dislike fractals and would rather not waste time voting on them, but you stay because you like the site well enough to tolerate the requirement that you do so. If you really want people to "state their wishes," why find fault with them for doing so? My assumption is that Caedes wants his site to thrive. I would think that he would welcome feedback on such a radical new rating system and, if it isn't working, alter it to make it work better. The framework of this site is wonderful. I wouldn't bother to comment if it weren't.

I think that this has been debated to death already.

Caedes has been very patient, but some people abuse the privelege of the open forums on this site (not aimed at you, RUBrite). In my experience, the discussion threads here are very lightly patrolled compared to other sites I have seen.

Feedback is one thing, but the same issues raised again and again are another matter. It may be that you are unaware of other (tedious) discussions that have already taken place on this same topic. For those people who have seen them (including poor Caedes) it gets to a point of oversaturation.

I find in life that you sometimes have to agree to disagree with someone and then move on. It's a mature thing to do and certainly a pragmatic thing to do.

RUBrite: you joined caedes.net 09/03/05. Please, have some respect for thousands of caedes members. You can't judge the site after one month and one upload...
If you don't like this place, go away......

Hi, Pierre. I regret that you feel the need to tell me to leave because I joined several others in sharing my views on the new rating system. I hardly attacked other Caedes members. The the contrary, I have the utmost respect for the artists who post here. Fact is, I've tuned into the art here for much longer than a month, and I've been very impressed with the art work here. Hence my decision to sign up officially in September. Too bad you find it necessary to use that against me. If you've read my comments carefully, you will note that I think this site is wonderful. I do think that this community has slid backwards with the new rating system, however, and it's obvious that I'm not alone. Just as I haven't been a formal member for long, the new voting system is very young. Why you feel the need to defend it so vehemently, I fail to understand.

Got it RUBrite. Let's drop it, shall we?

Yes, I was just about to say that....the more these discussions continue, the more fights will start.

*tears streaming down face*

Ok people. Time for a reality check here. I am fed up witht the complaining about the new voting system. It's here to stay so you will learn to live with it.

A very important fact:
Members complained about the previous voting system, vote attacking etc. That's why the new system is in place. You asked for the change and you got it. Now try to make the best of it.

Perhaps the "reality check" should be for those who assume that "people" should "adjust" to a radically new way of rating images in a matter of weeks, especially when many good images are getting such unreasonably poor ratings. I see a number of disheartened members doing their best to "adjust" but feeling the need to give honest feedback on a system they're finding difficult to accept. With all due respect, sir, you often treat the adults here like they're in nursery school. I respect the fact that your "job" seems to be to "keep the peace" here, but sometimes that means letting people speak their minds. As I said a couple of days ago, I don't know why you even have "discussion boards," because you respond to almost all voices of dissent with the same, "love it or leave it" rhetoric. You don't "discuss." You tell people who disagree with you to be quiet or leave.

I disagree with your assessment, RUBrite. In any case even if it were true that discussions were heavily policed, it is entirely the prerogative of those who run and administrate the site to do that.

Regardless of the efficacy of your argument, that school of thought has been done to death already on numerous similar discussions. There is no point in discussing it further. It is tedious to have to keep reading these 'discussions'.

Ok, let's get one thing straight. The C-index was changed after various members complained about the previous C-index calculation being seriously flawed and open to abuse by means of low-voting/high voting.

Caedes then went out of his way to devise a new system, to take preventative steps by implementing the new voting booth and C-index system. He also clearly stated that the new system will require a re-evaluation of your perception of what a good image is. Rather than getting stuck on 70+ values, you should consider the difference between the values. A C-index of 50 is a reasonably goog image.

I have never told anyone to be quiet or leave. The problem is that re-hashing the same things over and over will change nothing. The new system will take time to get fully operational, and to allow votes to stabilize. Discussing the C-index has been done. All that's left to be said is that people will have to learn to adjust.

Please can we stop fighting about this.. It only makes it worse.
*more tears and great sobs*

Rudy, we are actually very careful to keep these discussion boards open. Very seldom are comments removed, no matter how much it troubles us to listen to people bashing the work we do. Unfortunately, what you're doing isn't discussing, it's whining. Caedes, all the other mods and I are well aware that there are people having trouble with the new system for many various reasons. I think you'd find that if you tried some tolerance, you'd find people more receptive to your views. You're not the first person to belittle the work caedes has done, and I'm sure you won't be the last, but if you'd try fighting a little less, I'm sure you'd find caedes's heels wouldn't be dug so deeply. The system isn't going to change, but there's nothing that couldn't use improvement. Improvements and changes are going to take some time though, so making 3 posts about the same thing in the same day isn't going to help. Caedes does all the coding himself, in his spare time, outside of grad school and work.
I do not know "the man" caedes personally, but everything I've seen him do and every interaction I've seen him in online over the last 3+ years has been for the benefit of the site and it's members. Maybe it's not what *everyone* wants, but he's done his best to find out what people say they want and make it happen. The reason this thread is still here is that caedes has always looked for feedback on the site from it's members. Unfortunately some members abuse this priviledge.