I really need to know what are caedes true criterions for moving pictures from "New Images" to "Permanent Galleries". Is it possible works with lower C-indexes to be moved there, while works with higher ones to be deleted? If so, what the C-index serves for?

Moving images to the perms is, and has always been, entirely the decision of caedes and the mods, based on their artistic judgement. No statistics, such as c-index, download/upload ratio etc are taken into account when making this decision, although generally the quality of the high rated images is better so we will tend to look at them first. As to your question about what purpose the c-index serves, it is simply a tool for members to assist them in finding the "best" images on the site, rather than just having everything ordered randomly. And as I said, it also helps us in our task of moving images. You probably won't get much comment from any other mods as this has been explained numerous times in the past.

Isn't it a matter of professionalism to have a good artistic judgement, as I believe the mods should have? And when you look at two images, and one of it really has better critique from the public, higher votes and better artistic value, what would make caedes choose the picture wiht lower quality? It looks kinda personally. But certainly - it's "your"website, you can do whatever you want to. I shouldn't ask if I didn't have an example. For me, personally, the C-index does not have any value anymore. Thanks for the answer of my question.

Search the forums and you will find the answers.

Believe me, I have looked quite a lot in them. :) But I have already heard the answer and I made my own conclusion out of it. Again, thanks for your time.

I concur with your conclusion, Jenny. I took some time yesterday to compare a number of images that were of similar artistic quality and merit, in my opinion. The c-indexes on those images ran from 22 to 87 and there didn't appear to be any rhythm or reason for the wide disparity of scores. I also compared images by the same artists that were comparatively similar and, likewise, the c-indexes showed wide disparity. So, I agree that the c-index would appear to have very little value at this time, other than to be an ongoing point of contention.

I think you will probably find the 87 c-index is from the old voting system

I don't think so. I believe that score was from one of N. Smith's works and I think it's from the current system. In fact, I compared scores on a number of his "jewel" pieces, finding that scores on these works ran from something like 37 to 96, again with little to account for the wide disparity in scores.

"For me, personally, the C-index does not have any value anymore."

As I said the c-index is to assist you in finding the "best" images more easily. If you genuinely don't think it does this, then no, I guess it wouldn't have any value for you.

Well if its one of Nathans it should be that high... his work is amazing... I think everything about the c-index has been said and done... if you look through the discussions you will find the c-index is brought up in just about every discussion whether its about that or something totally different...... i doubt its going to change and either way there will be people who are happy with it and who are not.. as I have said before and I will say it again.. there is more to art on this site than the c-index, and if you went to any other gallery you wouldnt have a c-index... So many have forgotten the reasons on why they came to this site in the first place (sorry if it offends some), Did you come on here for the c-index or to just share your images on here? I dont think so.. Most of us came on here to share images, get some ideas and tips, become part of a friendly talented community... They are numbers to give a guideline for those who are interested about figures.. I think the discussion on this has been going on too long.. its time to move on and live with it cos it wont change.

As for moving from new images to permanent.. the mods do a good job sifting through the hundreds of images (I dont envy them) and have to make a decision... I have seen some images in the permanent gallery with high indexes that shouldnt be there.. but thats not my decision... its up to the artistic eye of the caedes and the mods, and im sure they would be discussing amongst themselves what should and shouldnt be there... and they do say that your images are not guaranteed to be placed in the permanent galleries... As for the deletion of images with high indexes.. it happens all the time, nothing is sacred, ive had some with high 80's taken off... just have to live with it, I have my work saved so it doesnt worry me...

Please dont take this personally.. as this is just my opinion... but I really think the c-index discussions should be put to rest...

The c-index will always be a topic of discussion Jacqueline. For one thing new members join the site every day and every now and then someone is going to bring up an old question about it, or maybe a new one. It's OK for people to ask questions, and give their opinions, but they need to realize that you can't have everything just the way you want it. Simple fact is you can't please everyone and you just have to accept things the way they are sometimes and live with it.

Yep... unfortunatley some cant drop it...

I believe you missed my point, Jacqueline. Yes, Nathan's images are excellent but, when I looked at the distribution on his "jewel" images in particular, his scores ranged from 37 to 96. There isn't an image in his "jewel" gallery that warrants a score below 50 and there is little to explain the wide disparity in his scores. The point is that the c-index doesn't appear to be a very reliable index of the quality of work and, if you take the time, you will see this both across artists and within individual artist's galleries. If scores aren't "reliable" statistically, they can't be said to be "valid," and I believe that was the point that Jenny was trying to make.

And as Sam said not two posts earlier...

"It's OK for people to ask questions, and give their opinions, but they need to realize that you can't have everything just the way you want it. Simple fact is you can't please everyone and you just have to accept things the way they are sometimes and live with it. "

So repeatedly dragging up old gripes, hijacking threads and posting duplicate complaints in different forums isn’t going to resolve anything. If members have something new and proactive to add to this debate then by all means knock yourselves out - but I see no point whatsoever in just repeating the same old line over and over and over. The current train of conversation is the proverbial dead horse that has been flogged continuously over the past few months in one guise or another and as Jacqueline pointed out it really is time this was put to rest.

I began this discussion because I didn't find anywhere the question of the "moods" of the Mods. And their objective evaluating peoples works, as I said earlier - regardless quality, index, artistic value or anything. The answer, I guess was, "because we want so - take it or leave it"., so I agreed. The question of the index was rhetoric. :)

Hi Jenny. I understand your frustration with the c-index. When I first joined Caedes.net I was very smug about my high c-index, but when the voting system changed and my c-indices began to fall I became quite cynical only to end up where i am now where it just doesn't matter anymore. I and most others who care to rate the quality of their images now use the view-to-download ratio to determine quality. My highest is 80% and my mean is about 62% with my lowest being abysmally low... You can look at my gallery and decide whether it's good or bad, then use these ratings to decide whether the c-index is useful or not.

I don't want to drive you away feeling like your issue was not addressed, but this issue has been discussed ad-nauseam in other threads through the course of this past year. As Caedes himself points out, the c-index should have no meaning to you if you are not a mod. A lot of blood was spilled three months ago over this issue, and most of us have come to feel that we should just ignore the c-index. I recommend it.

"Blood was spilled?" I'm very new to this site, but why are comments about this new voting system so taboo? If it's new and it's not working very well, it makes sense to me that people would want to talk about it. I do agree that the c-indexes don't seem to mean much about the quality of images, from what I've seen. I'm wondering why they are even calculated. Seems like it might be a waste of a lot of time. Then again, if statistical adjustments are made to improve the system over time, then a certain amount of experimentation is necessary. The old saying, "Rome wasn't built in a day" would seem to apply, and that would include changes to make the system work better and comments and suggestions about what is working and what isn't. Isn't that how "change" works? Why all the "bloodletting?" Isn't the goal of everyone a system that really works?

As for the voting booth, why not have the "random" images that people vote on simply go to the page where the images have size options and the viewer can see the title and the comments from the artist? If you don't want voters influenced by scores and viewer comments, make the c-index and viewer comments invisible until after they have voted. Use the same page for both selective and random votes and, if someone has already voted on the image, there's no need for them to vote again. Is it really necessary that images are viewed completely in the blind? Just my naive thoughts on the matter. Have a great day!

I think it's not so much that comments are taboo, just that it has been debated to death.

The c-index is ultimately a number indicating the trend of other people's votes on images. It means nothing as such and has no great bearing on whether an image is kept on the site.

Any idea when the discussion board search will be back if ever? Perhaps many of these questions or rehashings could be prevented if these previous discussions were easier for our new folks to find?

I think they are taboo!!
Everytime someone makes one they get reprimanded.

*takes Morwyn out back for a reprimand*
*thinks Morwyn could take me*
*changes mind*

Yes, the goal is a system that "really works", but "really works" is a nebulous definition. What really works for me might be a system in which my images get the highest scores always, since my work is of course, the best. My taste is different from yours, so a system of rating art is subjective at best and dependant on a whole host of factors including what I'm in the mood to see today.
The first time I saw a macro of a flower I thought it was breathtaking and gave it a ten, but now I've seen hundreds of them, and they're a bit passe - I give them sixes and sevens. Is it fair that those early flower macros got high scores compared to the later ones? The later ones might be better, but I still rate them lower. Is that fair? No. It's art. This is why you shouldn't expect the c-index to be an accurate reflection of quality.

While "really works" may be a "nebulous definition," as I understand it, the intent of the c-index is to provide a *relatively* accurate index of image quality. Otherwise, perhaps you could explain what it is that it's intended to measure. If such ratings are totally "subjective," then there is no *objective* measure of *quality* and it's a waste of time to try to devise a complex statistical index to measure something that doesn't exist. The point is, until the system seems to have a higher level of reliability, it makes sense that people are going to share their concerns about it. Why should such opinions be "taboo?"

"Moving images to the perms is, and has always been, entirely the decision of caedes and the mods, based on their artistic judgement. No statistics, such as c-index, download/upload ratio etc are taken into account when making this decision".
Now let's clear out the term "artistic judgment". And you really do not owe this that much to me, I am an amateur, but there are caedes members here that have excellent works, you owe them a fair answer for you "artistic judgement".
Or if we could finally talk about the things straight and open – Mods encounter the problem of the quick development more and more, right? You have more and more pictures to look at, less and less time to spend on each one of them, correct?, so sometimes (be fair!)…well you know as well as I do what happens in a situation with big volume and short time. And you can not rely more and more on any statistics, as it is quite inaccurate. Do you think of a solution? (I would like to sincerely apologize right here if I’m wrong with my conclusions!!!) I do not say this because I would like to show myself as an extremely smart person, but let me confess something – for the last 3 months there wasn’t even a day that I missed to see the new images, to stop by the pictures of the “big artists” and to explore meanwhile how all the system works, or doesn’t work. So believe it or not, I am concerned. All the people that replied me are also concerned in their way. This is actually good for caedes.net. Do not look at it as negative criticism, take the information and use it, that’s how improvement works.
I counted to 15 before I posted this. :)

OK then, so what is your specific question?

Automation versus human judgement. Which one is more likely to be implemented as a measurement here? And why? Thanks in advance.

I'm afraid I still don't understand the question. Measurement (for what?), here (where?)

I have recently updated the FAQs to cover what the c-index is and isn't used for, so maybe you can check that out?

I checked out the FAQs regarding C-index and I am pleased to see it gives so accurate information about what is or is not the C-index. My respects on revising the term C-index.
OK. When I started this discussion I believed the C-index is a true measurement (evaluation) for the quality of a work here (www.caedes.net) and is taken into primary consideration when making decision whether some picture to be deleted or moved into permanent gallery. Due to this discussion I found out I was wrong. The only true objective is the artistic judgement of the Mods.
Questions: Please give some inside information how do Mods form their artistic judgement. What is taking into consideration in the decision process whether to delete an image or move it into permanent gallery? Are Mods always striving to be objective? And finally, are you thinking to automate the process of placing pictures into Perms, or are you going to rely on the artistic judgement as the volume of pictures grows? I know it’s a bold question, but I could not resist asking it.

I will answer your last question since it is the one I can do most justice to: if image upload volume increases then we will just increase the number of people who are in charge of moderating the image content (ImageMods). This is what we have always done, and there is no limit (within reason) to how long this will work since the number of available moderators will always be proportional to the number of uploaded images (with the current upload limitations).

That's what I call going straight to the point! I appreciate your clear answer to this question.