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PS2 turned into a desktop PC??

::Radjehuty
11/17/05 5:20 AM GMT
I recently read several articles about people turning their ol' larger style PlayStation 2 console into a working desktop computer!

I would like to know if anyone ever experimented with this, because if you were able to do this, you could render some serious graphics with it.

To put things into perspective, My computer is a 2.4 Ghz processor, 1GB RAM (about 9 month old Dell PC), and PS2 has about tripple or more performance lol.

It's such a shame that all it does is play games when I could use it to render fractals!
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"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb

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::philcUK
11/17/05 11:06 AM GMT
havent heard anything about that - I did hear the stories that because of the cell architecture of the ps3 you will be able to run linux or OSX on it although Sony have said they wont 'allow' it to be installed directly onto the unit itself but could be put on an attached external drive.
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"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
akashastrega
11/18/05 12:41 AM GMT
You can buy mod chips, and with them, do any number of things...same with the newest model xbox's (not the soon to be released 360). Mod chips are inexpensive, and yes, using the right tute's you can learn how to modify your console to access its power...whether you can install an OS and use it as I desktop I am not sure though. Google for modded PS2, or XBOX mod chips, anything like that, and you can learn more.
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::Radjehuty
11/18/05 5:31 AM GMT
Yea basically you would need an external drive.

I just don't understand why all PC's are made with the same cell architecture. I mean...I paid about 500 bucks for this POS Dell computer, whilst PS2 has tripple (if not more) the performance at less than HALF the price!

PS3 has 2 TFLOPS of performance!!! (almost 2 thousand times the performance of my current box)

Attatching an external hard drive wouldn't be too much of a problem for me...it's making it recognize a keyboard and mouse that would be more of an issue.
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"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
::philcUK
11/18/05 11:23 AM GMT
presumably the PS3 will recognise generic USB input devices like the PS2 did but who knows....
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"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
.KEIFER
11/18/05 11:37 AM GMT
While I admit I've never paid attention to the PS2 or consoles in general .. I find that extremely hard to believe about the power

PIXAR isn't using them in render farms ..

Games are, generally speaking, dumbed down .. graphics wise as well as other aspects .. and they still chug at times on their host machine .. (or so I've read)

but .. if you say so ..
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wookin pa nub
::philcUK
11/18/05 11:41 AM GMT
no but they are using G5 renderfarms - the same family of processors used in the 360 and PS3 both of which feature between 3 and 7 core cell processors - it will be interesting to see how they perform however they wont be laden down with huge amounts of RAM which could hinder their performance as an everyday machine.
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"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
.KEIFER
11/18/05 11:55 AM GMT
Is the Mac, in general, still a RISC chip setup? ... and what's that about them and INTEL chips?

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wookin pa nub
::philcUK
11/18/05 12:11 AM GMT
they are moving over to Intel officially in July 06 and at the moment are using multi core G5 IBM processors.
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"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
&Crusader
11/18/05 7:19 PM GMT
There is no way that a PS2 can outperform a PC in anything other than games. The stats are just too low in comparison. The PS2 was specifically designed for games.

Now the PS3 is a WHOLE other ballgame.
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::Radjehuty
11/19/05 5:04 AM GMT
...

want some numbers?

Average performance of a modern PC such as Dell or HP PC's: Around 2 GFLOPS

Performance of PS2: 6.8 GFLOPS

And the games are not "dumbed down", a better argument for that would be that it doesn't have an operating system running in the background (or atleast not as huge as windows), but the games themselves are by no means inferior compared to PC games.

It's true that the processors in the PS2 don't perform as many cycles per second (Hz) as a normal modern PC, although PS2 has multiple CPU's

PS2: 300 Mhz
Modern PC: > 2 Ghz

The thing that makes the PS2 perform so well is the cell architecture.

Here's an article: http://www.blachford.info/computer/Cell/Cell1_v2.html

And actually, PS2's are more versitile than you think they are. There's actually a group out there selling "Kits" that comprise of a Linux CD, HardDrive, and a few other components to turn your PS2 (the larger version) into a Linux PC.

You have to remember that it's not just hardware, but also software which is really most of the compatibility issues. I believe the PS systems use PowerPC type processors, atleast the PS3 does...but I'm quite sure the PS2 does also, which Linux does support.
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"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
.KEIFER
11/19/05 7:33 AM GMT
Well .. my comment about "dumbed down" was largely related to interface I guess ... but ... there is a reason that the words .. "consolitis" and "port" .. fill PC gamers with such DREAD

I've never used a PS2 .. my last experience with a console was .. (drum roll) .. INTELLIVISION .. but I read alot of game forums and journalism (if that's what it is) .. and NO WHERE did anybody drool over the sheer POWER of the PS2

I'm not really doubting your numbers .. I just think there is a monkey wrench in the machinery somewhere .. because if there is money to be made by unleashing that power to MORE households they would have done it at the beginning of that machines life .. and not the end .. it's funny how money does that to people ... therefore the math doesn't add up

That's all I'm really saying
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wookin pa nub
+tbob
11/19/05 5:47 PM GMT
I agree if they were better than desktops they would be desktops and not toys.I think the problem is you are comparing it to a $500 Dell prefab PC.
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&Crusader
11/19/05 5:52 PM GMT
The PS2 is specifically extremely good add games. I read a article on the architecture difference between the PS2 and PC as far as game programming goes. The PS2 can do much more in the same time as a PC.
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::Radjehuty
11/20/05 6:10 AM GMT
well see the PS2 CPU itself is actually pretty slow compared to normal PC's, but what it does have is very high bandwidth rates (which is not so in our PC's) and two VPU's which are very good at calculating linear algebraic expressions.

I read something very interesting about the PS3 recently which was that they have Optical wire (firewire possibly) support which is supposedly there to "donate" processing power...maybe I could plug it into my PC? That would be so cool :D

If this were true, a few hundred PS3's could very easily replace the current most powerful supercomputer comprising of 65,536 PowerPC processors (each about 2.8 GFLOPS). Since each cell performs roughly 200-256 GFLOPS, the PS3 is supposed to have atleast four, possibly eight.

It was pretty interesting in that modern PC manufacturers sell PC's soley based on the CPU clock speed as measurment of true performance. And in the Cell approach, it looks at the efficiency of all components.

A computer is only as good as its weakest component. Your PC won't perform as well with a 3 GHz processor, if you only have 64 mb RAM, or with a slow BUS speed. Maybe PC manufacturing companies should sell PC's that are efficient in all areas like the architecture of the PS3.

I just don't understand how a PS3 with all its power could be sold far cheaper than say an Alienware performing at only a few hundredths of the performance at best.
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"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
.KEIFER
11/20/05 6:48 AM GMT
Or why Alienware isn't selling PS3 PC's .. since they aren't shy about creating their own tech .. ergo .. bringing back the twin videocard SLI setups

as I said before, I don't doubt your numbers .. but I return to my point .. If you think that SONY would pass up the opportunity to single-handedly wipe out the existing status-quo .. and replace EVERY home computer with one that had a logo beginning with S and ending with Y ...

Then you dozed off during a very important economics class ... and maybe you should re-think opening that .. TOFU STEAK HOUSE .. you've been dreaming of

;o)
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wookin pa nub
::Radjehuty
11/22/05 12:44 AM GMT
well...Sony actually DOES sell computers, just not with that architechture, probably because they are cheaper to build and they can sell them for more. But meh, Alienware is a pure rip-off as I can easily build one far better for less than half the price.

I think I'm probably just going to ignore PS2, and see about taking advantage of PS3's firewire(?) support.
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"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
::philcUK
11/22/05 12:47 AM GMT
its also worth remembering that both Sony and MS sell there console hardware at huge losses - making up their money instead on game licensing.

the PS2 has a firewire/ilink port as well doesnt it?
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"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
::philcUK
11/22/05 12:24 AM GMT
Just read a quote from some tekkie bod at IBM who said that if the PS3 had been launched in 1998 it would have been the most powerful supercomputer in the world. All good stuff im sure but the PR crew at MS wont like it seeing as how IBM are also putting the meat into the XBOX360. The rate of advance in computing technology seams to be on an accelerating path again so lord knows what will come next :-)
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"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
::Radjehuty
11/23/05 4:46 AM GMT
1998 most powerful supercomputer in the world? WOW we came a long way...

At the moment, the most powerful supercomputer at the moment is around 180-200 TFLOPS (about 100 times that of the expected performance of PS3)

It is pretty amusing to me that having 100 PS3's could easily replace the 65,536 processors in the current IBM supercomputer :D

PS2 doesn't have a firewire link, it has a couple USB ports. Also, PS3 was designed to run parallel processing through its firewire link making it REAL easy to create your own supercomputer haha!

There was an actual article...forgot where it was, but it talked about this parallel processing with its firewire link in terms of it being able to plug into your HDTV box supposedly "helping" it, while at the same time playing games or running with their linux box to help the compiling stage run much faster.

I don't remember hearing anything like this with the xbox360
0∈ [?]
"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
::philcUK
11/23/05 3:14 PM GMT
my mistake - Sony originally had Firewire/iLink ports in the PS2 but dropped it when it went all slimline :-)
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"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
::Radjehuty
11/23/05 6:48 PM GMT
oh, >_<
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"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
::stuffnstuff
11/24/05 12:37 AM GMT
I am poorly educated in this and out of the loop on owning any systems, but it seems to be common knowledge that computers were always a step ahead of systems.

I won't make a statement like that without trying to back it up, even if I don't know what a "TFLOP" is. Computers do tend to have a faster frame rate, true (not to mention resolution advantage? I am always surprised by how low the "pixel" count is on projectors and tv's), but consider the depth. Have you ever played a and the distance seemed foggy or you can see super distant light poles at night which eventually disappear and then reappear when you get closer? I notice trends like these seem to be a lot more noticeable in systems than computers.

I remember back in the day when I was at my friends house on his . His big bro had just rented Tony Hawk 2, which I had been borrowing from a friend on computer. We played them in the same room, and the computer had way better distance visibility. Likewise, after buying NFS Underground 1 & 2 for computer, I was rather disgusted about how unclean the lines are on another friend's Xbox, even though he thought the graphics were good. In fact, the reflections are so advanced in NFS Underground that it sometimes looks like the road is half glass, and that is when it isn't even raining! I am not trying to promote absurdly unrealistic graphics, just a good representation of what the makers are trying to create. The motion blur in Underground 1 along with the extremely detailed car reflections really is incredible, and I am only running an ATI 9600 under the hood (not exactly a Hemi these days).

The general trend seems to be that computer has a leap on graphics and performance which is nearly negated when a new platform comes out, but seeing as platforms can only come out so often and computers are continually increasing (both stats-wise and in the coming out), computers almost always have a strong edge. Some nagging voice in the back of my brain is telling me that this is going to switch around in the next few systems, but no guarantees.

systems do have the advantage of never having compatibility issues or hardware or software problems (within reason), and I imagine it would be much harder to contract a virus from the internet, seeing as how you don't even have a processor. When TV's have equal or higher resolution than the monitors of the people who frequent this website and the designer's know this, computers will be left in the dust.

Anything I am seriously wrong on?
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You can do anything you set your mind to when you have vision, determination, and an endless supply of expendable labor.
::Radjehuty
11/24/05 12:46 AM GMT
Well you can't really catch a virus seeing as most systems don't have the opperating system to understand them. The only reason viruses are so prevalent on Windows is because most of the home uses use windows on a regular basis, so that's where most of the targets are.

TFLOP means Trillion Floating-Point Operations per Second, which is a measurment of the actual performance of a system. Clock speed which is like Ghz or Mhz only measures kind of like the rate of your CPU's "heart beat" if you want to think of it that way.

The reason you see alot of lines or pixelation on games is because of the software's limitation. If you play Final Fantasy X, you would see quite good quality on a PS2 system, whereas Final Fantasy 8 was much poorer quality.

PC's and PS2's work in completely different ways. PC's are all about more memory and much higher clock speeds. Whereas PS2 is all about the Much higher bandwidth and being able to process linear algebraic calculations extremely efficiently.

Plus, PS2 doesn't have a hard drive...would be pretty hard to catch a virus if there's nothing to catch it with :D
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"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
::stuffnstuff
11/24/05 12:52 AM GMT
How true. :-)

Is the high bandwith what makes PS2 always fast and never choppy? Because I manipulate images and require incredible sharpness (so much so that my camera simply can't deliver and I am disgusted), I really do care about amazing resolution and making good use of ever available picture.

Come to think of it, Midtown Madness 2 has some interesting textures. :-D
0∈ [?]
You can do anything you set your mind to when you have vision, determination, and an endless supply of expendable labor.
::Radjehuty
11/24/05 1:03 AM GMT
well, this is what brought me to this discussion in the first place. PS2 has two VPU's, one CPU, and another CPU for PS1 which is why they are compatible with eachother. the extremely high bandwidth along with two parallel VPU's is PS2's potential to be very efficient with rendering fractals. All it would need is the Software inbetween to convert the needed calculations into the linear algebraic expressions that the VPU's do so well.
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"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
.MorpheusZero
11/25/05 9:36 PM GMT
I'm sure someone has done it before, but I don't see why anyone would want to do it now. The PS2 is the weakest in the graphics department of all of the current generation consoles (PS2, Xbox, and Gamecube). On top of that, a decent PC is much mre powerful than any of those consoles. People tend to beleive that consoles are superior to PCs, but the games for consoles are designed to run for that system, and that system only. Also, consoles run games at much lower resolutions than PC games do.
Of course, I am not talking about the Xbox360, which has an enormous amount of possible processing power for its price. I read somewhere that Microsoft is losing more than $100 dollars for every Xbox 360 sold.
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::Radjehuty
11/26/05 9:44 PM GMT
Well it's not the PS2 that's the reason really, it's the software.

Again, the numbers are really what say it. The most a modern PC can really get is around 2 - 3 GFLOPS, while PS2 can output around 6.8 GFLOPS which is why the group I mentioned spent the time in configuring a modified distro of Linux for it. I am willing to bet that the PS2 is much more powerful than your desktop, unless you run multiple CPU's or run multiple computers parallel together.

Yes the VPU's are specialized for certain linear algebraic expression calculations, but that would be for the job of the software and Operating system.

Yes the software is designed specifically for those consoles, which means that we can design ANY software for the specific console, since that's what games are anyways. Who's to say that a distro of Linux couldn't be modified to be specialized for a PS2?

We use and rely on our OS's like Linux or Windows to run on our very high speed CPU's and low bandwidth, but what if we took an existing version of Linux, and modified it to take advantage of the High bandwidth of the PS2 just like software developers do for their games?

Please remember that Linux is an Open Sourced Operating system, meaning that anyone with the skills can modify it to run specifically on that console, just like people do for the games they create. Unfortunately this is not so for Windows.

We can create games like Final Fantasy X and many other games to run flawlessly on the PS2, so why not an Operating system?
0∈ [?]
"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
.MorpheusZero
11/27/05 1:28 AM GMT
While the PS2 maybe theoretically be able to reach 6.8 GFLOPS, it really doesn't matter. The number of GFLOPS a computer/system has won't necesarilly give it a drastically better performance when running an operating system. I mean, the new nvidia 7800 has something like 200 GFLOPS, but it doesn't mean it is 100 times more powerful that an intel pentium 4. This explains alot of things:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TFLOPS
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::Radjehuty
11/27/05 1:58 AM GMT
True, but you're comparing just one component of a system. The 6.8 GFLOPS I was refering to was the overall performance of the entire system taking all components into account. There was a law (which I forget the name to) which says that a system is only as strong as its weakest components.

If you read the article I mentioned above, Sony (along with others) created the Cell technology seen also in PS2's a bit was designed to make every component efficient, not just the marketable CPU Frequency spec.

By the same token, it depends on the software. If a program, such as a game, is written for a totally different system, the PS2 wouldn't execute it efficiently, in contrast, if a program (or operating system) was designed or modified to take advantage of the specific hardware, it would perform as expected.

PC's are high memory and clock speeds
PS2's are Lower memory and clock speeds, but much higher bandwidth

If I ever decided to put this to the test, I would let you know if an Apophysis fractal was rendered three times as fast :)
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"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb

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