What is the individual thoughts of the peoples on this site about the US government? In essence is it a good government or is it a failed experiment started by the founders.

in the opinion of a liberal US citizen, i think that I would describe the US government as a "good idea gone wrong", sometimes it's GREAT, sometimes its TERRIBLE, it really vastly depends on who's president at the time... ut the concept itself in my opinion is a good one

I think its great...I love having freedom...

This is an interesting quote I picked up from an old friend. I would reevaluate your opinion on how much freedom we have. Freedom of religion is a concept that is all but dead. Personally identifiable information is stored on many wireless devices. The US government regularly withholds information form the public and many people in the United States live in ceaseless paranoia.

You can't have a government where everyone is truly "free"... in essence that means they could do anything they wanted, which would be anarchy. My opinion of the US governement is the same as any other democracy, it ain't perfect but it's the best form of government anyone has come up with so far. The only other alternative is some form of dictatorship (be it a king/queen/military leader/whatever) whcih can only work if the ruler has the peoples best interest at heart. Usually though they are much more concerned about their own well being and retaining power. Basically I don't think the system is at fault as much as the decisions that some of those in the government have made... again this is the same with any democracy.

I agree wholeheartedly with Sam.

I disagree. There is another form of government that we could have. It's called Democracy. What we have as our current base of our government is what is called a republic. In this form we select leaders who we believe represent our ideas and THEY choose what happens. Not the common person but a group of politicians who might not even be representing the common interest.

but we select leaders with the understanding that they will represent us...don't get into the crookedness of policicians...it just makes me frustrated and angry...grr! :)

Raptorfalcon: Most 'democratic' countries have representative democracies - they are more practicable. There is no intrinsic relationship between republicanism and representative democracy (though the two often go hand-in-hand).

Sam: anarchy has nothing to do with 'doing what you like'. It is merely a lack of centralised government. It is a common misconception that anarchy=chaos/disorder.

Come on! If we're going to have some political discussion on this website, at least use the right terminology (that should get everyone stirred up)!

As for the US political system (I assume that's what you meant, Raptorfalcon) yes of course it's a load of crap. The founding fathers were desperately trying to get away from the failings of the European systems and they screwed up. However, it's not really any worse than anywhere else.

The 'great' thing about democracy (apart from it's fundamentally flawed premise: namely that if most people vote for something then it must be 'right') is that it appears to be so very fair. Dictators at least are honest enough to just seize power; in a democracy politicians go through the charade of an 'election' before they screw everyone.

well, that's a pretty pessimistic tone, captain... :)

I think most people would know what I meant by anarchy. Clearly, you did, Mary did, and Raptorfalcon did... so what's the problem? If I went around this site correcting peoples spelling and grammar I wouldn't have time for anything else... anyway, I have said my peice and don't intend to say any more on the subject. It's just too hard to have a proper debate using a keyboard with people in different timezones. If anyone wants to buy me a tropical island somewhere I will set up a perfect government and you are all invited to come live under my wise and fair rule, other than that...

That's the beauty of these threads. Differing opinions from all over the world with time to think about your answer. I do agree about the grammer situation though.

Hey, at least the US president is in his country for more than 50% of the year! ;)

Yeah, he just gets other people to bomb places for him ;-)

Agree with Sam: too difficult to have a debate, and I have said enough. However. re: spelling/grammar, I wasn't aware I had corrected any.

you can never be truly free of goverment...thats communism....but i do enjoy the american goverment(but only when clinton was president) that was one of the best times in american history...jobs were high national income was high war was low and we even tried to fix the middle east(like civilized men)

Apparently you and I have completely different ideas of what freedom and communism are. Communism is a form of government where the government provides all of your needs. Also everyone is completely equal. That is that if you have a TV everyone has a TV. Read Karl Marx’s work sometime. ( The American founder of communism. ) Communism really has nothing to do with freedom.

In reffernce to Bill Clinton, The reason we had no wars with Iraq then is that there was no formal attack on United States. Yes jobs were high and that can't be accredited to Clinton just as we can't accredit the crash to Bush. That was all Alan Greenspan ( sorry if I misspelled that .)

yes the comunist manifeso..and i mean that without goverment its communism...because i know what communism TRULY is

Karl Marx was born on May 5, 1818 in the city of Trier, Germany. On March 14 1883, Marx died in London, after stays in Belgium and France. He never visited the US and was not the founder of the Communist Party USA. The CPUSA, one of several Marxist-Leninist groups in the United States, was formed on September 1, 1919 in Chicago. Reference: Gus Hall.

No. Communism does not provide all of your needs. The Party represents the common ownership and control of all means of communication, production and distribution. It is supposed to distribute same equally or by need. Let history be the judge.

I would like to come back on the first question of Raptor: " In essence is it a good government or is it a failed experiment started by the founders?"
For me the American Settlement is one of most beautiful in the world.
But since some years, the American democracy moves back. Medias don't have the same critical mind anymore than before. The government restricts the liberty of the Americans every day, under the anti-terrorist war pretext, and the American people accepts without moaning...

Currently, the President is elected thanks to the money of his electoral friends. It's fundamentally bad! The American democracy is not anymore a true democracy. It became a lure...

... Hey! It's because I like the Americans that I say what I think. "Who likes well, castigates well" ;-)

I don't see what is so bad about our president...

If Clinton was still in office, we would have had many more 9/11's...because he wouldn't have done anything about it...

How can you say he was a better president?! He was too busy cheating on his wife...he had no place trying to make peace in the middle east...it's our fault they're so mad in the first place...It's because of his spend spend spend attitude (part of his political party's ideals) that everything crashed when Bush took office--which is blamed on him instead of his predecessor...

I just don't get it.

no...we wouldnt have...because if clinton was president he would have done the smart thing and searched for OSAMA BIN LADIN!!!! NOOO WAYY!!!!!!!! yes its true ladies and gentalmen..he would have looked for me man responsible...not the man that dubya's daddy wanted out.....i mean honestly...they havent found anything that ties that poor stupid bastard sadam to the world trade center tragity...although they did find a paper in sadam's pitiful lil hole stating not the trust someone(although i cant remember who) but they were from us or are allies or somthing.......makes you wonder if you can actually trust your beloved president doesnt it? aawww i remember when i was a lad and clinton was president..no war....my mom didnt have to work cuz my dads job paid more....federal funding went into importand things like the space project....it was truly america at its finest.......most unlike now

Agree with you Otaku...

Thank you PPigeon..its good to see a great mind such as yourself is on my side.

Ok stay with me here. Iraq is a country. This country has funded terrorist camps, camps funded by their benevolent dictator Saddam. Clearer now?

I don't recall seeing any evidence of this on the news... did I miss something perhaps?

the word is menevolent moron...you just called saddam great and powerful, and kind and wonderful and such...an anouther thing...no..there isnt evidence to support anything like that...its okay to be optomistic,raptor...but dont lie to yourself

hmm great debate and point proven kevin lol there are a lot of things right and wrong with our government but i dont think that clintons personal life really had much too do with that of his work... sure he shouldnt have done that but its like if your president of the worlds largest coffee producer there not going fire you for messing up your own personal life, okay and on the next topic i havnt heard much about funding terrorist camps... ive heard about the French funding terrorist camps... thats the sort of things we hear on our news... propaganda, it either makes our government look good or tries to make us see all the other problems... least the real news does, course theres some awesome Bush comics that are suprisingly true but... ahh so much to discuss lol

raptor....if been reading though your past comments...and it really bugs me that your so insecure about your own government...i mean come on..you said we wernt a democrasy..but do you know what a democrasy is? a government by the people, a form of government in which the supreme popwer is vested in the people and excercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system ...we have that..we elect people that elect the president,pass laws, ect. you seem to be very anti-estblishment..now im not gonna say i agree with the government 100% of the time..but i will say this "we have a great government, in which we can say what we want, when we want it." for instance at the democratic debate the other da, Dean asked "who here disagree's with bush" almost everyone raised there hands. this is a great example of are freedom..if someone were to pull that in iraq they'd most likely have there tounge cut out and then be shot in front of everyone as an example. also...we do not have a pure democrasy....thats almost impossible.. i mean everyone wants to be considered better that someone...and then there's troy's democrasy (a political philosophy advocating preservation of established institutions and traditional principles combined with political democracy and a social and economic program designed to benefit the common man) and we have that..are goverment is set up to help us life are lifes FREELY and IN THE PURSUIT OF HAPPYNESS....i can be anythign realisic if i set my mind to it...i could become a surgein, i could become a soldier in one of the finest most decipended army in the world(but saddly misused by some leaders in the pursuit of oil) i mean i could even be an astronut if i dedicated myself to it...but in other countrys like..for example Cuba..your told early on what your life is going to be like...your assigned your role in a shattered republic. be happy were you are...i plain on becomeing a psychologist...and thats completly in my reach...i mean its good that you can openly express your opinions raptor....but god man open your eyes


A SPEACAL THANKS TO PHOENIXASHES FOR THE HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol alright thanks for the foot note kevin =D

Woah calm down people. What we have is not truely a democracy nor is it completely a republic. We have a republican democracy. Now immagine for a moment we were to put our government on a scale one being democracy and 10 being republican we would be more towards a 7. Note: the democracy and republic have nothing to do with the political parties.
I was aware I was calling him benevolent. I was trying to be sarcastic and I don't fully appreciate being called a moron you pig.

im a pig am i? i can live with that....and you shouldnt fully apprecaite it...policitics bring out the best and the worst in people...if you cant stand the heat dont add wood to the fire

and that personal message you gave me...saying you play a curtain role..i dont buy that...dont post to get a reaction...post your TRUE thoughts and feelings...not just want you think well get poeple's wings wet

Ok explian this to me I have a slow mind. If you dont buy it why then are you telling me to post my true feelings.
I would post my true feelings but people tend to get upset when I do.

I fear I've waited too long, the heat of the thread winding down and all. Anywho I'll throw my two cents in. Firstly I'm a conservative, so flame as you wish based on the such.

Firstly, Clinton was not great for this nation, least of all economically and socially. At the end of his term the beginning of the economic downturns had already begun (a fact not seen very often); and of course the whole scandel thing didn't help the US's image.

Bush on the other hand has been exactly the opposite of the politicians as usual and has actually acted on what he said he would do(ie school funding, etc) The war with Afghanistan was just and yes Otaku we still are looking for Osama; we haven't given up. The war with Iraq was justified in that the killing fields and thousands that lived in fear and poverty have finally ended. I personally think that it should've been handled more by the global community, but the truth is, appeasement is the current state of world politiks. WMDs, by the way I feel we will still find there; but if not I'm still content that an evil man is out of power.

Democracy is an impossible concept- psychologically people take things for granted; it also requires an active participation in politics something most people frankly don't have time for
Socialism and communism are also almost impossible as there is no motivation to be the best you can be. However they can happen...communism see 1984, socialism Brave New World.
The truth is we need something inbetween whether by the democratic republic, or monarchy. Both are corrupt to some extent but the great thing about the former is that if you feel the corruption is extreme, we have the right to vote them out.

Anyway enough with my rant...the system is good...blah, blah, blah...

I just feel I should point out that I don't think anyone questions that Mr Saddam was a bad guy; but the reason given for the invasion was that they knew there were WMD there, and it now appears that this was really an excuse. If you are going to say that the war can be justified because a tyrant was removed from power, or by the establishment of a democracy, then why not also remove the Chinese government from power, or invade Cuba, or Korea, etc....

haha you made some good points...but i still feel that we had no bussiness in iraq..if those people hated it so bad they could have won there freedom themselves, as america did....i mean if like....9 angry farmers with muskets can beat the british army..then i think 500,000+ pissed off iraqian's with ak-47's can do the same

Firstly Otaku, you've read 1984, I think so anyway..from another post i think...;anyway, the gov't ruled by fear if the proles would have rebelled they would have won but the gov't montiored them so closely that nothing more than individuals could do it. Also we had a bit more than 9 farmers with muskets. :P Plus the British tactics were wrong, they weren't used to non-straight out open battlefield fighting.
Nextly, war is never the first option. China is an ally. Cuba is not anywhere near a threat. Tactics being used against Korea will work because of the tradition of the peoples, they just want to be recognized as somewhat of a power. In Iraq, I still think though that we will find the WMD's in time, missles don't just destroy themselves and quite a few (i don't remember how much at the moment but it seems like it was in the 25-100 range) are still "missing".

My point is that these countries have oppressive/non-democratic governments. I wasn't suggesting they should be invaded, quite the oppostie in fact. I was just trying to point out that the arguement that the invasion of Iraq was justified because it removed a tyrant from power is rather flimsy. As for China being an ally... are you saying that as long as a tyranical government is on good terms with the US that makes what they do to their citizens OK? Just some food for thought...

The reasons for attacking Iraq were:

1) that there were leads that there were links between Osama and Hussein<although unproven now at the time it was reason enough to check up on the issue;
2) American intelligence ever since Desert Storm has continued to show that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and confirmed by various other intelligences (ie British) and were even given as a reason for bombing Iraq for awhile during the Clinton era.
3) Hussein was a terrible dictator who slaughtered his people for fun, and had death camps(I think this is what raptorfalcon was referring to earlier, tho not sure); not good stuff

Under the circumstances following 9-11 we didn't want to take any risks. We may have been wrong in our assumptions, but you have to trust the intelligence you're given especially if it is as huge in magnitude as the WMD claims teamed with the defiance of UN sanctions. I'll agree the UN should've been the leader and maybe as an alternative forced him out of power, but the UN is not a world changing force at this time. We felt we couldn't take the chance. From now on invasions will probably not be done as the primary way to change our surroundings, and I will be against future ones. However if something is to happen, things change...

The attack on Iraq may or may not have been justified. That doesn't matter at this moment. The past is past and cannot be undone. Yes the Death Camps were what i was talking about and thank you for helping with the post everyone. It seems to me that there is an overwhelming amount of either shy or ignorant people. I mean no disrespect by my comments. I would like to continue these conversations longer as we aren't out of Iraq yet. Post you comments on whether or not the occupation of Iraq should continue.

actually in the revolutionary war it was US using the wrong tactics ...britian was using tactics customary at that time

at that time. we see now the problem with standing in lines and shooting at people and the U.S. sorta took advantage of this weakness. i havnt heard too much about the death camps although i have heard of them... are they after any sort of person in particular or are they just out to kill anyone? and the 4) reason for attacking Irag... oil hehe naw idk but i just thought id add that as a theory

the camps were set up to anyone who opposed Hussein, those who attacked him, conspired against him, were thought to talk bad about him, those who let the nation down by not winning a gold medal, or anyone he just wanted to.
As for your question raptor, the occupation should last as shortly as possible however we have to leave it with some sort of stable government which we're in the final stages of doing, and with adequate power (at about 30% capacity last time I heard)and water supply.
Oh and if we went to lower oil how come my gas prices keep going up; I'm not very happy about that.

I guess I'll stir up the pot:
Where you stand on lowering/raising taxes and how they affect the economy? Is lowering taxes a good thing?

Being in washington state we have sky high taxes. 9.8% may not be as high as other states but it's still anoying. Lowering taxes at this point wouldn't be a great thing because we are still in essence funding a war. A tax break would be good but not right now. As for the gas prices the reason they are still so high is that even if the price per barrel drops, the US government is still going to tax it heavily.

I think that tax cuts could be rosponsible for many of the problems in the US and some other countries. People have to realize that if they want better infrastructure, they have to be preparde to pay for it. How can you ask for better funding for schools/hospitals etc but also be expecting tax cuts at the same time? Not that I'm saying higher taxes are the answer, the funds obviously need to be managed and allocated properly too... I'm not sure what you mean by a 9.8% tax rate, maybe tax works differently in the US... but here in Australia most people pay about 30 cents in the dollar income tax. I guess that sounds pretty high to you, but I would rather pay that than see public services collapsing...

Actually I would be really interested to hear what the tax rates are in some oother countries... someone told me once that they are very high in some European countries, but the public services are excellent, eg free public transport etc. Is this accurate?

I see your point. Seems to me to be the same point I was trying to make.
In washington state we pay basically 10 cents on the dollar for sales tax.

Oh yeah I only read the first line of you las post. Skimming through as usual... :-)

It was also said in the Gettysburg address that it was an experiment. And as far as the war don’t get me started on that. And as far as death camps and mass graves, they have been founded in many countries communist, dictatorship and yes even in the U.S.A.. Don’t forget about the American Indian a peoples, whose culture where made subject to genocide, their persecution was subject to mass murder and mass burials and in the name of freedom and expansion along with profit. It’s sad considering part of our constitution was based on there tribal laws.

I know that when you write an on line letter to a client, it takes data technicians to batch it, a person to sort, one to deliver the letter and one to mail it out and file a copy in your file. It should be that someone like me prints it copys it and gets it within minutes and not the next day and mails it out herself. All these people for a simple job. I work for the government

(kimcande's statement) this is exactly one of the reasons i think government should do as little as can be helped. The people who run these jobs have no reason to be efficient, they get the same amount no matter what, and even if they are regulated it's very loosely, and therefore tend to be inefficient.

(prismmagic's) and it is a great experiment;...these policies of genocide and mass murder have changed from acceptable to unthinkable in time. At the time of the genocide of the indians this was a fairly common worldwide epidemic(not to think about the rights of others) Nowadays everywhere this is seen as wrong and therefore should be ended, and at least in this country have.

Also what part of the constitution was based on there tribal laws? I know it was fundamentaly based on Locke and various other thinkers of the slightly preceding period. I didn't know about this.

(Kimcandee statement) Regarding or government just go to a local governmental office emphasizing the mental and enjoy the efficiency, It’s mind wrenching.

And as far as the Indians evolvement in the constitution our for fathers went to the Indians to get advise, do to the efficiency of high archie and how every one in the tribe had a say in its future. And how their government worked. They where impressed with the tribal structure.

If there's one thing I dislike the most, its people live life constantly bashing whoever's in power. They find one weak argument, one tiny discrepency, and blow it up to huge proportions. When intellectual people (as opposed to yes-men that blindly follow) finally see through the lies, these bashers then move on to another pointless argument. I honestly belive most, if not all, of those people simply enjoy publicity. Why else would they act like fools in front of the nation? A good example of this was/is John Kerry's accusation of how President Bush joined the Nat'l Guard to avoid the draft, while Kerry himself seemingly flirted around with anti-Americans while on duty in Vietnam. Another thing, if people really think that America's so screwed up, I suggest they pack their bags and ship off to some other ideal land.

*whew*

That’s what makes America so great is freedom of speech. So is it really a crime that people care about the direction this great country is going. Or do we let the politician and bureaucrats sell it of until there is no country and the freedoms that go with it left,while they tell us what we want? I vote, I give my Opinion, I care, and I’ve lost many friends in useless wars such as, Vietnam, Panama, Somalia and Granada. I’ve seen a large percentage of children in this country become a victim to violence and drugs. And the down fall of education. I’ve watched Illegal immigrants being given more rights then the citizens of this country. I love this country and I’ll be darned if I stand by and let it be sold of for profit. Or the ambitions of some self centered politician. I wish more people would vote in order to give this country back to the people. But most don’t know the issues or just don’t care any more. I know many that have given up and feel that there vote doesn’t matter. Every one deserves to be heard even if there opinion isn’t wanted. That’s what makes it America.

What is sad is that with all these useless war there was no celebration for their return. Nay, sadly many times they were and still are treated poorly for participation in war that in many cases they had no choice to participate in. The first example of this that comes to mind is Vietnam. Though there be many incidences of poor treatment the worst to me seems to be of Vietnam. I fear that when Iraqi is vacated many of the veterans of that war will be treated very poorly. It grieves my heart to think of that.
Though not completely related to the thread Prismmagic just made me think of that.

A The original question is regarding government So to understand present government, you must look at what’s going on. This government is little older than 200 years; ands has the ability to set an example for many others. But I fear that it will only be an experiment Failed and be lost in the tied of history as just another example of a futile chance at freedom and choice.

I agree with you on the returned soldiers. War is such a waist of life. But to survive it and to be treated like it was your choice to go, is a travesty in my heart and eyes.

war is a waste of life but sometimes it's the only course of action....appeasement is not a good strategy for prevention (of course this does mean we should just objectively go and run our military against anyone who is not us) We all owe much to those who have fought and therefore I have nothing but respect for those who have.

Prism, in my opinion the only way it can fall is if...
A) the government becomes too big and no longer is concerned at all with the people they represent...or
B) if society becomes so corrupt as to not care anymore about what goes on and becomes oblivious to what happens

You(prism) continually say how gov't is corrupt. How so? I guess I don't see things the same.

For example, lets take the Iraqis we are there to bring freedom and order to their country. Correct? But yet we split the supervision of their oil fields up between the four major power that contributed to the over throw of their government. Now we instead of putting the people of the country and it’s own contractors to work rebuilding the country. Almost all of the contracts where given to special interest groups. From the U.k, Canada and the United States. To profit of the rebuilding while the people in this country starve. They have no employment. One town is sitting in an average of one foot of human waste. Another example the politicians in this country will change laws right before an election in order to gain votes. The administration promised to have a 5.2 trillion dollar surplus by the year 2004, they promised this during campaigning. If they leave office, they will be leaving us with a 2.7 trillion dollar deficit all do to selling out to special interest groups and spending money on big government that was not needed. This will be possibly by your grand children. That means that in the first year of this administration they had already put this country in hock. They are saying that the unemployment rate is going down when in reality it is going up. The 2.4 % I believe increase that bush was talking about is actually the amount of job growth for the employees and us companies in there foreign offices. This growth will not affect American workers. On averages a large percentage of the senate and congress has well over 16 million dollars in American and foreign interest accounts. Most of the money was gained thru special interest groups, Tobacco companies, Oil companies, Pharmaceutical companies, Arms manufactures, General electric is big contributors to politicians right now do to the pornography industries because general electric owns one of the largest cable companies, and pornography is a very big bossiness I believe it is over a 140 billion dollar a year buss for them. Congress is campaigning against pornography right now. And G.E. Doesn’t laws restricting that medium do to the money they make of it.

This is the greatest in the world, And big government and bureaucrats are selling it of by the pound.

It seems to me that you are failing to take into account the religious instabilities in Iraq.

Yes I do, their religious sects are like our political parties in our country. Darn they are their political parties. You are dealing with a nation that does not separate politics and religion. They are originally a nomadic people, very territorial. But to instill pride back into the people as in any community you have to give them a reason to believe. And it is hard to believe in any one when you are starving, and your pride and beliefs are being striped from you. Do you really believe that we are not manipulating the political structure for our benefit?

okay i'm going to take these one at a time...
firstly the reason why we are still there in Iraq is because we are rebuilding the country in part...quite a bit of it is being done by Iraqis; what we're doing is defending them so suicide bombers and armed forces of the old Regime come out of the woodwork to screw up what they and we have worked on. you're right, however that a large portion of american companies are getting involved in this and not allowing Iraq to do things their way; i disagree with that,but it's the companies getting priviledged subsidies for going over and "helping" so that's Congress that needs to fix that...Iraqis are in troubles right now, that's why we're there...
true the Bush did promise a surplus but this was before 9-11 and the extreme damage that did to the tourism industry, which then trickled through to all other businesses, not to mention the fact we were already entering a depression before Bush took office...unemployment is going down, the economy is going up, and the last thing that businesses do is start hiring workers they want to make sure the economy is stable again, and it's becoming that way.
Special interests work in the way that if a candidate is /already/ proven to vote a certain way the special interests give them money...if it was done otherwise politicians could get money from conflicting parties and get no harm for doing so...economically this makes no sense for businesses to give money to an unsure deal... and so the special interests help to reinforce the way the candidates vote, just as the people shape how they vote. Politicians are sometimes corrupt and take advantage of the system but this isn't the majority of the time, and they generally don't have a second term.

First thing the Iraqis are not being given work that’s one of the. biggest issues in Iraq. Have you not seen the Ted Cople in Iraq, and the BBC world broad cast? On the situation there! Have you not read the newspapers? Too thirds of the county does not have running water, there sewage is running into the streets. They are starving. Yes the dictatorship is gone. But these are the basic things you take care of first the rest comes later.
And as far special interest groups and politicians the pour money into their pockets at a constant rate no matter the outcome because the have such a large in flux of cash that they are willing to take the chance. Eron was a good example, the bush administration was found to have known was going on 9 months before the bust. Hell several of the administration was caught with there hand in the pocket of Eron executives. Why do you think the American people pay 70% higher in pharmaceutical cost then any other country? It’s not because of research. Why do you think? Drugs are so high. Why do you think congress and Bush back these companies? When the elderly and the pour in this country give up food to pay for the medications. Why do you think there has been some medications keep of the market? It is more profitable to treat them then cure them. And don’t blame 9_11 on for this. If anything and if you know your history the US has always profited of war it promotes economic growth hell during the Vietnam War we at the height of industry and economic wealth. The unions and bureaucrats have made it to hard to bossiness to survive in this country. In California alone the taxation and insurance cost has gone up so high to make for the major amount of alien influx into the country to balance the budget, and the stress in has put on the welfare system that bossiness have had to either shut to gain or leave the state and the country. But yet bush is cutting deal to bring more into the country and than pay them social security when they go back home in order to get votes from the aliens legally here and some that aren’t., what state do you think is going to pay the most for that? California. another thing groups like we care are now going into Irag to rebuild because nothing is being done.