I'd love to have an option to exclude certain categories of pictures, so that they are not presented for voting. In particular, I don't like to be asked to vote abstract images or macro pictures, and I have noticed that tend to give low marks to them, as I am scarcely interested in this kind of artwork. It would be great to be able to exclude these categories, and leave the voting on them to people who like them...

voting .. enjoy

OMG Keith ... the list seems endless

*cough cough* SEEMS?

Alas...the shortcomings of the voting system and c-index...
Personally, I don't see this as too bad of a suggestion either, to be able to exclude certain catagories that we don't have as much favor for...but I shan't elaborate further.

what if .. nobody happens to like YOUR category ..

It wouldn't be fair to exclude any categories. When I first joined Caedes I didn't have much interest in fractals, but through the voting booth and other members, I now have a love for them. I like to think that my tastes have been enriched, I've become more open minded. The more to love, the better.

I got an idea...howabout a suggestion for JUST THE OPPOSITE!? Like if you mainly post photographs you'll have to vote on 80% comp generated images...and visca versa (however u spell it)

Absolutely Dot ...

This change to the voting system is one of the one's I'm most likely to make. The only problem is that I have to fully investigate the effect this would have on the voting bias and change the c-index calculation accordingly.

This as in the original idea, or my horrible one. ;)

Sorry, palantir's idea.

Ah darn..lol.

I can see how this could give a fairer c-index by giving people with an intrest in that catagory their first priority, and excluding the catagory(ies) in which they feel less inclined to appreciate.

i agree, and at the same time disagree...i might not be able to judge certain media on technical merit, but i'm not selfish enough to hammer someone's work because it's not of the same media, or artform as what i dabble in..i just use different criteria....for whatever that's worth

Ahh .. see? .. *caedes is a true politician .. notice he said "I have to fully investigate the effect this would have on the voting bias and change the c-index calculation accordingly." ... this translates to .. "The Check's In The Mail .... he gives with one hand and removes it from your pocket with the other

Be sure to recount the fable around the campfire so that it becomes part of the verbal tradition ... and your children's children will be on the lookout for the news article

;o)

"*caedes is a true politician"

Now Keifer, there is no need for name-calling!

I'm not saying I like to hammer artwork that I don't take as much interest in, but I think this is one way that abuse to the voting booth can be cut down.

I personally think that giving low marks, on purpose, to images you "don't have an interest in" is a cop out. If you don't want to vote, then don't. Cough up the 9 bucks to be a Cadre member & then you don't have to vote before uploading, problem solved.
I just think it's a huge injustice to the people who do abstracts, fractals, photo manips etc. to so belittle their hard work.
I was like Dot, in that when I first started here all I was interested in was photography. And I saw some amazing photos here on Caedes. Absolutely stunning work. And I still see that work, every single day.
But as I worked more throughout the site, I began to see other amazing, different works. Some I didn't like, some I hated, but some ... some, with their curving lines & beautiful colors began to interest me. So I began to look at these abstracts, those fractals & I saw an underlying beauty in them that was hard to ignore, And I became interested enough to try my hand at them.
And they're hard work ! We try everyday to better our craft, just like the photographers do. We don't just dial these images up like you would Chinese Take-Out or Pizza Delivery. We start out with an idea in our heads, a certain look or style & work towards that. Try to develop that further. Yes, some are better than others. I'm the first to admit that. Shoot, I'm the first to admit I'm only fair to middling.
But to dismiss all abstracts out of hand in the voting booth just is not right. IMHO.


To any members I may have offended here by my rant, I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize. No offense was meant, & I certainly don't mean to start any kind of a flame war. Far from it. This is just one person's opinion.

I agree with Lauren. Voting low on images that we just don't happen to like the style(fractal, CG landscape etc) is being very short sided. I think the voting booth giving us little bits of everything is much more well rounded. The whole point of Caedes having so many categories shows that there is more than one type of art. If you don't like making fractals, and one pops up in the voting booth, don't just give it a 0. Look at it for what it is. If it is beautiful and well made give it the score it deserves. I feel we are all mature enough to vote for an image itself rather than what kind of image it is. Please....it seems awfully childish to give a fractal a 0 just because you don't like fractals. I think changing the voting system is closed minded.

I like Lauren, don't want to offend anyone or start a thread war, just giving my opinion.

I never said I am voting low on purpose, when I don't like the style!

On the contrary, for me it's a matter of honesty: why should I vote something I don't know anything about? When it comes to fractals for example, to me they all look similar to each other, and I'd rather leave the burden of voting them to someone who can actually judge them. I always try to give the "right" mark to each picture, but sometimes it's just hard to figure it out.

On the other hand, I really don't want to stop voting at all, because I love to do so, and I find very valuable the marks given by others. And I don't vote because of the uploads ratio. In fact I have uploaded only a couple of images, while I voted hundreds of them.

After some discussion through PM's, myself & Cat would like to offer up this alternative. How about people who opt out of categories are still required to vote on 1 of that category for say… every 15 images… that way they'd have time to get to "know" the field, and might be more inclined to honestly consider and rate an image ?

I say .. that we add a lie-detector to the voting booth .. just takes a few minutes to hook up .. I should know ... (*wink*)

You said, " In particular, I don't like to be asked to vote abstract images or macro pictures, and I have noticed that tend to give low marks to them, as I am scarcely interested in this kind of artwork. "
If I misconstrued your statement Palantir, then of course I apologize.

If this were to be integrated into the voting booth, I believe it would improve the honesty of the c-index, by excluding the votes of those who really don't care about fractals, or any other such catagory of image. Lauren, I can certainly see your point, but just browsing the new images gallery, one can see the variety of artwork. I'd rather have certain people opt out of voting for my images than have them vote them low every time they see one of that type. That is why I think this would work.

I agree with you Lauren. It's not fair to vote low on an image just because you don't care for the style. It's like saying I don't like flowers or kittens so I'm just going to give them all low marks. I would never think of doing something so inconsiderate or underhanded. Judge it on the quality, photo or fractal, or CGI, it's the only fair thing to do. I too, am sorry if my statements offended anybody. That wasn't my purpose, just stating my opinion.

I agree, but people are going to do what they are going to do;one can't control the voting, or it would be biased. It isn't that I don't agree, but I try to be realistic, you can't control another person's behavior. The world isn't fair, but that's the world we live in.

Tim, it already IS biased.

Well Timmy would it be fair that most of the ratio is higher for photography than GC, therefore the photography would get more "sightings" than GC, therefore photo's get more votes while the GC is pushed into a corner? I guess I'm lucky because I do a a bit of both.. but for the GC people it would be unfair.. and no you cant control another persons "behavior" and the world isn't fair but there is no excuse to vote on another style of art because its not your style..

People complain all the time about the low votes they are receiving then turn around and say "well I vote low on certain styles because I dont know anything about them"... to me thats "if you don't like it dont do it to others"...

As for voting low because of "not-their-cup-of-tea" I have said over and over and over on the never-ending threads about this.. is unfair not to the image but to the artist who puts hours of work into the images.. yes I agree some are not good quality (but you will see they are beginners and are still learning).. but there would have to be a couple of things you could pick out.. eg.. Colour - do you like the colours do they appeal to your eye; Design - do you like the design, Detail - how much detail is there in the image.. It's not that hard to look at (unless your blind and colour blind) regardless of your personal preference to a different style..

When I came on here, photos to me were family/holiday shots, I had a go at real photos and I voted on images I looked at, I had no idea of compositon, etc, but I knew what appealed to me from there I learned from others what to look for... as for CG I knew absolutely nothing about those, but from seeing the great designs, the details in some of them it got me interested to see how people did them, (and it's not easy you can spend hours (i'm talking about 4+ hours) trying to get it the way you want) I voted on those too mainly for the appealing colours and designs..

Palantir you said to Lauren " I never said I am voting low on purpose, when I don't like the style!"
however in your opening comment you wrote:

"I don't like to be asked to vote abstract images or macro pictures, and I have noticed that tend to give low marks to them, as I am scarcely interested in this kind of artwork."

To me that is saying I vote low because i dont know about that style.

I cant see how you can say they all look alike... most of them are very different... here are a couple of samples of different work from the CG programs Link Link Link
Link Link Now do they look alike? I think not.

I apologise if this hurts a lot of you... but thats the facts.. and my opinion.. and yes I know some of you will not agree with me... and I'm sure that I will once again get PM's, emails, and even comments on here biting my head off... so bite away.. its not going to change my opinion... (and i wont be responding to the PM's and emails this time so save your typing fingers..)

Maybe, instead of an outright catagory exclusion, in the voting booth, there should be an option to skip a certain image, simply because you have no idea how to rate it.

I am primarily a CG artist in the sense that most of my images were rendered in Terragen; certainly fellow CG artists wouldn't tend to exclude what they do. I'd rather have a truer sense of how well I've done than make people do what they aren't going to do: vote fairly on catagories they don't like. I'm not saying that those who are some of the best do this, but those casual members, who don't like voting to begin with, are going to vote low anyway.

I really do see where you are going with this, Jackie, and Lauren, but I'm trying to be realistic; and I do apologise if I am being harsh. I realise that this isn't going to work perfectly, but nothing will. I see it as a probable improvement on the quality of the c-index.

Hitting the refresh button on your browser skips to another image so I guess that’s that feature taken care of……

well, what you're you're saying makes sense, but i think it might foster 'crony-ism' and possibly fracture the site. everyone voting on all different artforms has, i think, helped to cross-expose artists to work, other artists, and techniques they might not otherwise come across...

to borrow a keith-ism...discuss>>

and i'm being realistic too.. how hard is it to say "I like the colour so thats a point in its favour... I like the design thats another point.. It has a lot of detail... theres another point" It's easy if you open your eyes.... and like Phil said hit the refresh button... i'm sure if you keep doing that you'll get your votes done in a few hours..

at the very least.... ;-)

Rob: I think we already have a rampant 'crony-ism,' and I don't think this change will affect that much. I still see where you are coming from Jackie, but I WANT TO IMPROVE THE ACCURACY OF THE C-INDEX! I want better representory votes on my images, and I see this as a way that could happen. We can't just shoot down suggestions like this because of what could happen...and if the worst does happen, we could get rid of it. Honestly, the c-index is a lousy representative of the quality of an image, we can't be closed to suggestion for improvement.

‘Honestly, the c-index is a lousy representative of the quality of an image; we can't be closed to suggestion for improvement.’

True enough but this is neither a new or particularly workable solution and many similar threads to this suggestion lie dormant in the EG. We can’t be closed to suggestions for improvement for sure, but we can be to retreading very old ground.

I think segregation in almost any situation is a bad idea. It can lead to no good. I like the multi-forum art here on Caedes. Why can't we all just get along!?

If you can answer that question, Asrai, you'd win a lot more than the Nobel Peace Prize...

I don't feel this is segregation; I see this as a workable solution. I would really like to see some suggestion to the improvement of the c-index actually tried, and if it fails, we toss it, and get on with things, but if we don't try, how will we ever know?

Another idea would be to take 3 thumbnails, each giving an idea of what a vote of 3, 5, and 9 would be like, all of the same category the picture being voted on is.

For ex: Say your voting, and a fractal comes up. It will give 3 fractal thumbails, which you compare the image to. Even if you dont like fractals, it will show you what a good fractal is, and what a bad one isnt.

This is a bad idea, I know.

*edit* I also disagree with the "segragation" of images. It forces you to look at other types of art, and I like that.

but 'tis segregation .. those that feel computer art or horsies frolicking should be heard and not seen can now banish them to the servants quarters instead of broadening their horizons

Tell me Timmy... did you come on to Caedes because of the c-index? why is the C-Index so important to you?.. cant you just be happy that you have a friendly site where you can share your work, and enjoy the comments people write about what they think of your work?

I don't think it is segregation, as you can see the many types of art from the featured images, or from browsing the new images.

But how often do you look at those thumbails full size when browsing the new images?

Rhetorical question...

Exactly... the ones who dont like CG WILL NOT even look at it when browsing the new images... why would they when they dont even want to look at it in the voting booth...

What side are you on?

We should have polls to see how much support there is for ideas like this...

noah, that question you just asked illustrates my very concern..there shouldn't BE a side..i dont think the C-index system is perfect, but really..why do we submit work? for an ego boost at seeing a number? ( and yes, shamefully i almost got sucked into that little bit of foolishness) or do we post to share, and exchange? hey i know..lets do away with voting altogether...if an image makes it to the perm gallery, great..if not..try harder :)

I'm going to go ahead and EG this thread since we have determined that the idea is understood and has also been suggested previously.