I am testing a new feature called the Caedes Art Council. The idea is to take some of the work off the Senate members by allowing more members to decide which images are good enough to include in the "permanent" galleries. The official description of the council is here. Please include any comments, questions, or concerns in this thread.

Wow- haha lots of comments here, it was hard to catch up, still dont know if i did. I really like this idea! I think having views from all sorts of styles and personalities is a wonderful idea! I say yay! it sounds like much fun! I hope this helps:)

Steve... It has not been removed... it is around page 39 of the New Images...
at this location! :o)

"Perhaps if some of the less desirable images were culled from the Perms by the mods, fewer images would be nominated."

Seems a rather fruitless task until the AC is fully sorted out... not too much point in pulling less desirable images if they are simply being replaced by some of the lower quality images that are being promoted at the moment.

However we do go through and spring clean the galleries every now and then; obviously over time standards change and expectations become higher as more people join the site. There have been occasions where we have removed several hundred images from the perms (maybe more, I forget) but it takes a fair bit of time and effort obviously so doesn't happen too often.

Con, I realise it's still in New Images but it was in the Permanent Gallery.

Sam, thanks for replying but as the image had only been uploaded less than a week ago and promoted a couple of days after that, I think the idea that it has been removed in a Spring Clean of old images can't be right.

My picture Flamingo, was promoted too, and now removed from the perms. I am crying FOWL...that was a darn good shot.

Steve... Sam was referring to one of my earlier communiques.
And I had responded to you in my way because I had found that the Wallpaper Search wasn't working (at least for me) on the new images... including yours. I have reported this as a possible bug in bugs/etc. :o)

Sam... I wonder if you shouldn't discuss putting the CAC on hold again... with Geri. It is true that the task of culling the weak images from the Main Galleries is immense and perhaps not even feasible if they are being increased on a daily basis... but it is a job that must be done... so that the easily equalled/surpassed images are not there for the CAC to use as a yardstick. In a comment I lost earlier, I had mentioned asking a few trusted/respected/willing artists to help you people by creating PMs (to certain willing mods) with links to images that no longer meet Caedes' standards.

Jim, I more than agree with you. You Flamingo picture was as good as anything in the perms. If it has been removed, already, then I am very angry. What is the purpose of this AC experiment if the mods can remove pictures advanced by it?

Are trusted/ respected/ willing artists those who all have the same tastes in life? A monolithic group, one vision, one way, one appreciation. That sounds like an art advancement opportunity.

Currently I have two notifications of images that I have nominated saying they have been promoted to the perm galleries but they are not there.

I have no objection to an image being rejected in the final instance by the mods but would suggest that if this is done then do NOT send the nominators or the artists promotion messages - it just is not fair.

Agreed - there are some substandard images being nominated
and it follows that some of these will be voted into the perm galleries when only a majority of 11 voters are required to vote positively - too small a number in my opinion - double it or more, and make the casting vote an image mods. Only then send the notifications to the artists and nominators.

I agree that it would be frustrating to have an image promoted and then removed again... the main reason why I stated above that I won't be doing any culling of permanent images until the AC is sorted out. I guess not everyone agrees by the sounds of it though.

I do not think this is the time to be culling images either.

I would still like to know why are the images I nominated and I was advised are promoted still in the New Images and not in the Perms?
It is a bit embarassing to congratulate someone and they say "Well actually, it does not appear to be promoted"
Is there a time lapse between the votes and the moving of them perhaps?

I know that two of my own images that were promoted appeared in the Perm Galleries immediately.

Sam, I, for one, am not in disagreement with anything... I am only trying to help by bringing forth ideas. I do firmly believe that whatever Geri and his band wants is what he/you/we will get!... as it should be!

Lyn... very good point, in my mind... to send notification of promotion to perm only after an image mod has agreed with the CAC... especially now while we are in a trial period... perhaps the notification could contain a reminder that this notification is only a part of the process of the CAC trial?!... yet more food for thought! :o)

I meant that it sounds like not all the mods agree about not removing images.

Lyn, I don't know anything about your specific case. I don't think there is any lapse but then again there could be... I really don't know much more about it than you do (actually probably even less since I haven't had any of my own images nominated).

I think Con mentioned something like this above, but I would like to see the ArtCouncil button all the time, and if I pressed it when I was not allowed to nominate then I got a message saying that, and giving me a time when I could. The same thing that happens when I try to upload too many images. At present I never know if an image has been nominated, or if I am not allowed to nominate, or when I will be allowed to nominate.

As for Lyn's problems, I have not seen it myself. All the images I am advised of appear in the perms and have stayed their. However, I can see that some culling might occur if a perm image was not suitable or of poor quality. Caedes has to maintain a standard, and if we the members cannot do it then it has to be done for us.

I have no disagreement about standards being maintained. I am referring to images that are not in the Perm galleries after I was advised within the last few days they had been selected by the CAC.
Of course I think the images I nominate are high enough quality and believe I am as good a judge as the next person, but also readily accept others may not agree with my choices, just as I sometimes disagree with theirs. The CAC voters agreed in the two instances mentioned, but for some reason they never made it.
All I am suggesting is that the advice notice that images have been promoted be held back until an Image Mod has approved and moved them, because it seems that they do not all get there.

:)LE


P.S. I am surprised that there are a considerable number of recently promoted images originating in the Community Gallery. While these are great to see, are of good quality and create a lot of interest and community spirit, surely they are not suitable to promote the site, and should be excluded from nomination.
Just a quick click through the first 20 pages of the Main Galleries without judging photographic quality I saw 16 glaringly unsuitable images

Edit: 22/09/10 - This is no longer the case as they are now removed :)

I agree with Lyn - I just went through the first 20 pages of the perms and there were some less than appropriate images there. On one page alone there were 4 pet pictures three of which were posted in the my community section. They were not extraordinary so I cannot fathom why they were in the perms. There were other very questionable images as well. How can an image that gets a 43 C index appropriately to the quality and subjext matter get in the perms? There are many images whose C index may not be accurate but this one obviously was and yet it's there. So all 16-20 voting booth voters were wrong? I believe the popularity of this artist had to play a part in that. I have been going through older images in the new images section looking for overlooked great images per someones suggestion and I'm happy to say 2 I nominated were selected - don't nominate someting posted 2 minutes ago - it will have it's time but look back to "older" new images.

The images that are in the "your community" galleries are only in the Main Galleries temporarily and will eventually only so up there if they pass the Council. You shouldn't base any suggestions for the Art Council on those images.

The new AC system is actually in testing.
We must be more critical and promote only the best images, otherwise we will fill the permanent galleries and weary visitors. That's why some recent permed images are culled.
Actually, we count more than 12000 images into the perms!

Geri: the 'your community' images should be separated from main galleries IMO

So all 16-20 voting booth voters were wrong? I believe the popularity of this artist had to play a part in that.

well I for one don't vote on who the particular artist is.. I sit and scrutinize the image for a couple of days before I make a decision.

Jacqueline The voting booth can an is deceptive,it depends on whos voting,on your work, there are works that were permed with out voting at all. I think most members works are voted on by the number of friend you have on your list, unless the work is extra ordenary,voting is a lil out of ballance() 2 cents worth

Yes, the voting booth voting is not worth much. People there (I dare speak for the majority) do NOT take the time to really scrutinize the picture. They just look at it, judge it by the first feeling it gives to them, hit a number and move on.
Hey, it's ok, they must do this if they want people to vote on their images. =)

The AC is a very good idea, and the way I see it, is working ok. I just hope that that CAC follows what Pierre said.

I was browsing throuhg the main galleries and I saw many a photo that should not be there in the first place.

And mind you who are about to comment on this, I do not think my photos are permanent gallery-good, save maybe one, but then again, they are not in the perms gallery, so things have been on the correct course there. =)

Geri... Tonight, I had dotted a selection and then changed my mind... I couldn't get the dot cleared other than by backing up&out and then coming back into my voting on the 4 nominated images - which isn't really a big deal but it shouldn't be that way, at least not in my mind. It could lead to some inaccurate votes by those who don't 'think of'/'wish to' start over. :o)

Yeah i've had to do that to.. maybe when we click on a selection a confirm yes/no button could popup so that if you do select by error you can say no and do it again?

Or just normally, so that the selection is final only after you click "yes".
Take into notice that the problem might be your browser, and not the code of the site. I have not tested this out yet, will do when I get my next vote.

In the meantime, if you are using IE, switch to another browser. Google Chrome or Firefox are the best browsers out there at the moment, work on any site, and usually without problems.
If you are not using IE, make sure your browser is updated. =)

Ok, that did not take too long, I just got a new vote, and I can indeed change my selection back and forth at will. It is finalized when I click on the.. umm, "vote", was it? =)

Anyways, browser changing or updating time for you guys.

Let me try to be a touch more clear... I can change my vote... I can't clear my vote... meaning I wanted to keep my CAC vote around for another day or so before voting. FF 4.0 b5!

Same thing for latest version IE... I did notice that the font (size at least) is different between IE and FF. Much smaller in IE! :o)

And Taro, "We, the dreamers," etc. is a lot closer, if not the same, in size to the regular text of the comment (in IE)... in FF there is a definite difference... and always has been! :o)

You will probably find that if you put off voting until the next day the outcome will already be decided by the time you go to vote on it.

Oh, yeah, I misunderstood. =)
Also, so true about the text size, FF runs the house on that subject. =)

I just went through the 'main' gallery. While I'd say the vast majority of images belong there, I found some images that clearly do not. There were a few shots that had nearly, but not exact duplicates. Images that were still in need of some editing, and a couple I'd dare say were only there due to the popularity of the poster.

I'm going to say, therefore, that interceding on the part of the image mods is most likely not only a good thing, but a necessary one. Some of the more impulsive among us are clearly not ready for the additional influence they've been allowed to wield over an images' fate. And please, quit nominating day-old images. They'll get their turn. I think the 30 day holding period in new images ought to be re-enforced a bit.

*looks down, sees bonfire under soapbox*

Whoops!

Amen

I recently had an image that I was asked to vote on... after that I found the same image waiting for approval. Seems a bit quick...

Yes, clearly some of the selected CAC members are accepting photos too easily.
If a photo is too easily rejected, that means it was clearly lacking. If a photo was too quickly accepted, it means the acceptors were clearly lacking.

Just kidding, of course. But Sam has a point here, that is too quick.
How many CAC members are there? Lets say there are 20 CAC members. If so, 8 approvals is not enough. It should be 50% at least, preferably more, to ensure that only the best of the best get into the main gallery.

So, maybe the limit should be raised? 10-14 approvals before even raising the photo for approval?

I am wondering is it is still currently 11 votes required for each nominated image with 8 positive ones needed for approval as stated Here ?

Tero, I suggested something similar back on 8/09/10 in this discussion - re: increasing the number of voters per image. Taking into account that the nomininator approves, my understanding is that 7 positive votes from the 11 voters are required for approval. More votes per image with a higher ratio of approvals would give a broader opinion.
Conversely now only 4 negative votes can prevent approval when a larger vote pool may give a more balanced outcome.

The Voting Booth collects approx 16-20 votes per image to calculate a final score, so perhaps 20 would be an appropriate number for the AC.

Without knowing how many actual CAC members there are it is not really possible to get a clear impression of how it works, but I would imagine there would be more than the 20 suggested surely? Everyone that has at least one image in the Permanent/Main Galleries qualifies for membership, but how many are actually using their CAC voting rights will be a lesser number.

The Here statement seems to be unclear to me... it talks about 11 voters, but is the nominator one of the voters... if so then only 6 positive votes are required... if not then 7 of 11 carries the day. And dare I ask this next question... but what is the actual use of the Perm/Main Galleries?... I checked my Caedes Control and I have images from three years ago that are still posted and they do not have the asterisk beside them. That may be another way for each of us to help reduce the space being taken... we can remove our own images that have not been permed and are older than, let's say, one year. Or is this too radical? What say you guys?

Con, you are correct that 7 of 11 is a majority, and the nominator must count as a positive vote as the number of 8 required is mentioned in caedes' news item on the front page.

We can delete our own images at any time from any Gallery regrdless of its age.

Con knows we can. What he is suggesting is that we do it. =)
I dunno, could be a good move. Although, if Gerry has nottold anyone there is a problem with space, then there is no problem with space, I guess.

For now, we should keep our photos where they are, I think. =)

Apologies, I misunderstood.

I think I remember caedes stating that space is not a problem. however personal galleries can grow very large. I deleted 20 images yesterday and another 36 today. Many more to go.

I will try to also do some clean up regularly, but as it is, I am still down to less than 4 pages in my gallery.
I think 4 pages, 36 photos each, should be more than enough per person.

Not saying we should make it so, just giving my opinion. :D

It depends on the person.
In general, I wish people wouldn't clear out their galleries as much as they do.

Earlier here I mentioned seeing a lot of sub-par images in the main galleries. I thought I'd seek out a few and display+explain what I mean by sub-par:
1. Kitten
2. Airbus

Now, do not get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with photos like these, I like both of them somewhat. The other one is a good shot of an airbus, the other one a semi-good shot of a cute kitten (that really suffers from the target NOT being centered).

Sure, the plane is freaking awesome, and the kitten is soooo cute, but is either of these photos really worth their place in the main galleries?
Does either of these pictures make you go "wow" and stop you in your tracks?
For me, I have to be brutally honest here, and say "no, not at all."
These are not the only examples of photos that have been upped without merit.

Now, what is my point? We are doing a lot to keep tight control over what gets selected to the main galleries, and to maintain high quality in the main galleries. Sub-par photos still have their place in the new galleries and personal galleries.
To the point then, we are working to control what goes up. Should there also be a group that browses the main galleries and selects photos that should be dropped?
Maybe a similar method, they are put up for a vote, and if 11 out of 15 accept, they are removed from main galleries and archived.

I suppose if some of the reasons why people did it were addressed, perhaps it wouldn't happen as much.

Getting back to the topic of this thread, I was wondering about the makeup of the Art Council body. Since I read that members are selected based on ownership of at least one image that's made it to the main galleries, a question (actually several) formed in my mind. What, more or less is the number of people in this pool that council members are chosen from, assuming not every single one is a member? And... Is there any time frame set for activity/inactivity on the site?

*note: my post was in response to Akeraios.

I don't know why your gallery is so sparse, but my impression is that the main reason people clear out their galleries is that they want them to showcase what they feel are their best (and most recent) works. But my perspective is that if I like your work enough to look through your gallery, I'll probably like older ones as well, and maybe ones that you don't think are your best - since art is somewhat subjective.
The viewing numbers for my gallery are always changing. If space isn't an issue, why deprive others of the opportunity to enjoy your work?

I've said all this before, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.

I don't think so Akeraios, remember that just because you don't see or hear the reaction, it doesn't mean there isn't one. =)

Tero: about your two exemples of permed images above.
The kitten was permed in the year 2006. At this time, the criteria for promotion were certainly not the same, because the number of members was lower. Does that mean we've to archive these images? I think 'yes' for the more bad, but 'no' for the medium or medium/best ones. This one has a c-index of 88 and 2740 downloads. It seems very popular.
The case of the Airbus is mainly different. It was uploaded when the A380 begun to fly. It was a true event...

Jap.

Good points Pierre.

But event or not, is the image good enough for the main galleries? No, I think it isn't.
Keep in mind this is a desktop site, not a news site. We should not promote snapshots under any circumstance, not even if the shot is of some event.

In this sense I think we have to keep in mind what is the point of the main galleries. It is to promote really good images out of a pool of some many sub-par ones.

These two, even if popular, are sub-par.

Harsh words, maybe, but the main galleries are also quite "swamped", and I for one think a litle weeding would not be of bad influence.

I am quite tired, which is propably the reason why I wanted to share this epiphany I had while reading my message above for errors:

Imagine the main galleries as a nice, serene japanese garden, with soothing waves rippling through the pond, fishes swimming leisurely in the water.
You let your gaze wander over the garden, the trees, the flowers, then the pool.
And then you see it. A brown, wrinkly poop, floating in the water, bopping on the waves.

How did this mental image make you feel?

Well, now you now how I feel like when I see a sub-par image amongst truly great ones.

We have other galleries for a reason. Let's keep main galleries clean, yes? =)

I understand that doing this might hurt somebodys feelings. If this is to be avoided at all costs, then let's forget about it. If not, let's have a CAC that removes sub-par images by voting, much like the CAC we have now.

Or, even the same CAC, let's just allow them to nominate pics from the main galleries for archiving.

If I might, I would like to give my opinion on the two permanent gallery images in discussion here. First, the Kitten. Is it worthy of a PG? Absolutely. Nothing Sub par about it. The composition is perfect, the focus is superb and ON the kitten, and the angle of the bed it is on is an excellent aspect of the shot. If there is any one thing I might change about it, is the color of the carpet, but it's not enough to take away from the image. Now..the Airbus. The quality of the shot is spectacular. Not one hint of noise in that beautiful sky, which is a perfect background for the plane, and the angle is stunning. The clarity is outstanding, evident in the words and numbers on the plane. It is no snapshot, or an event picture, as I had no idea of what Pierre was referring to. Both images are well worthy of the perm galleries that they are in. ....there you have my two cents worth. Please send a certified check to my bank account.

i have been quite disappointed in the whole art council thing. i am amazed by what gets nominated and what doesn't. i think that nothing should be nominated until the picture has been up for a week or so (at least). there are so many photographs that predate the art council which are superior to what i see nominated. i can't even get excited about uploading anything. i hope this feeling is short lived.

As an aeroplane enthusiast I have to say that the airbus image is a perfect desktop. I mean, if I want to see a sunset all I have to do is look outside the house at, well, sunset, and I see one. I have not seen the airbus live yet. They fly over me at about 35,000 ft so an image like this is what I would come here for. You can keep the kitten, I don't do cute.

My wife has the opposite view.

The point is, just because my own tastes are in one direction does not mean that they should dominate in the CAC. At least the airbus has an 'oh wow, so that's what it looks like'. Somehow 'oh wow so that what a kitten looks like' doesn't cut it.

The main galleries seem to be full of the 'here's something nice I saw' type of image. There is very little imagination going on. The images are good, have good colour, but I think we are missing a trick here. If you look back at the older images from 2006 you get a very different perspective. There was so much more imagination, experimentation and artistry. Anyone can take a well exposed and focused image nowadays. With practice you can get the composition right. Even then, all you do is take a good snapshot. The main gallery should not be about recording scenes, but be about recording an aspect of the scene in a way that is unique, unusual, or different. To see things that the casual observer does not.

A spectacular sunset is all very well, byte let's face it, it is just another sunset. A drop of water hanging precariously from the tip of a blade of grass in the morning is far more special and worthy of the main gallery.

We vote in the VB, we vote for images nominated to the CAC,we leave comments and opinions, and now it is suggested we vote on images to be archived (!)- add to this sifting through older images that may have been "overlooked" in the past, putting considerable thought into which images deserve our allocated nominations (if any)

One begins to wonder if anyone will have time left over to actually create any images !!

Seriously, I think CAC members being involved in deciding which images are to be archived is not a good idea. At all.
The thought of nominating an image for archiving and waiting for notification that another 7 members agreed is not something I would want to do.
The Image Mods already do a good job taking care of this.
If I felt strongly enough that an image was very very obviously and glaringly misplaced in Main Galleries I would notify an Image Mod and leave it at that, trusting their judgement.

Well, I have to disagree with LynEve here a bit. Matters of opinion aside, time-wise it would not be an issue.
Remember that a CAC member can only nominate 2 images per week.
So two images nominated for upping, two images for archiving.
Would not take all your time.
Also, the added voting would not eat time either.
As it is, I get some images to vote on at the moment, and for now, the choice has been painfully easy.

It seems like most people here settle for less, just like Jimbobedsel said, there is nothing sub-par a bout the kitten image.
Are you kidding me!? The target is not centered. That is enough to turn this shot into, honestly, a very average shot, a veritable snapshot if you will. Focus and clarity do not save this image.

I was half expecting people to start telling me that these images are not sub-par, but I am little surprised that the kitten one got somebody to stand up for it so strongly.

The airbus at least has no obvious failings, it just lands in the airfield of Borington. I've seen a million similar shots and for me, this is nothing special, I have seen better shots of a plane, from a better angle, with better background and with some artistic value.
And Jimbo, clarity and focus proves only that the shooter has mastered their equipment. A no small feat, I concur with you, but art-wise it is one small thing. Art-wise clarity and focus are a minor thing if the image is not presented in an interesting and new way. The airbus is not.

But, of course this is a matter of opinion and ours do not meet, so it is pointless for me to try and change your point of view, since you agreed with none of my points.

In art photography it is not what you shoot that should matter, but how you represent it. Thus the picture should get no extra points for being of an airbus.

Hmm, this is also why voting is necessary, because if we trust one persons judgement, then that one person can always be blamed for bad decisions.
Democracy is the way to go here, I believe.

But hey, it seems like nobody except LynEve has commented about the actual idea of nominating main gallery photos for archiving.
Maybe my examples do not meet other peoples criteria, but surely all of us have seen images there that we felt like do not belong.

All such images really take away from the whole. Lessen it's value.

Also, I agree with coram on the aspect of images that should be accepted into the main galleries.
The problem is that our opinions vary so much.

The mods are looking at all the images that were not promoted by the CAC. After the 30 days delay, we decide to archive or to promote them. Not other choice...
Obviously only a few images are promoted at this stage.
Exemple 1
Exemple 2
Exemple 3

Well, Tero, I guess timewise it would not be an issue if time spent on commenting on others' images and voting in the VB was minimal. I like to give both activities the time they deserve. As I do on selecting and voting for AC nominations.

My comment on the time issue was a light-hearted one but my comment about not wanting to be involved in voting images out was not. It is just something I would not want to do and would rather use my time to promote images rather than be part of a jury to judge them to be unfit.

Yes, as you say we have all seen images we have felt do not belong, and seen images that we think do, but everyone sees things differently.
For instance I think the Kitten photo is deserving of a place - you don't, but whoever said the target of a photo has to be centered to make a good composition ?

Is anyone else uncomfortable singling out those two specific works as being subpar? At least in a public discussion like this? I know if my photo were brought into this discussion and held up as "subpar" and likened to feces in a pond (!), I would find it hard to take. Not saying the issue isn't worth discussing or that constructive criticism doesn't have a place, just that we should remember to be considerate of one another along the way.

Rebecca, I agree with you 100%

Here here!

Hi all. Before this becomes a full-blown spitball fight (not that anything like that would happen here) I'd like to offer some thoughts.

While at first, I admit to being amused by Tero's turd in a koi pond anology, it was a bit heavy handed. And while I actually agree with his two choices of images as not belonging in the Main Galleries, I would ask (simply as a fellow member) to avoid using actual images as examples. You may not mean any harm, but that might be hard to understand (or believe) by some.

Granted, Person A is not going to always be in line with Person B in terms what "Art" is, or what "good" is. Lord knows I've been in my share of debates here. And I'll back up a good argumment for quality here on the site, as we all benefit from a positive outcome.

I'd like to offer this, then. Try debating in.. big picture terms(sorry, pun not intended). Instead of singling out "that plane shot by that member", why not just keep it to... "snapshots of planes, like one I saw in the main galleries, Etc Etc." After all, it's the type of image you have an issue with, not just... that image, right?

Thoughts?

The problem as I see it is The Vicious Circle! Is it the image or the type of image? The image in a perm gallery could/would promote more images similar to it... so one can not be considered without the other. If I as a total non-expert refer to a gallery for comparison sake and discover a type of picture and it is of low quality... I might be inclined to vote in favour of the promoted image if I found it to be at least equal to the comparison image. I believe that to keep a gallery at a high level, that gallery must already be at a high level. Mediocrity only promotes... Perhaps we need to vote for images to be 'Permed Until...' rather than simply 'Permed'! :o)                     I actually follow my rule that I vote for images that I am proud to see on Caedes!

Look-space
Composition

Rebecca, two corrections are in place:

1) the photos were deemed sub-par for the main galleries only. I also mentioned I like them both.

2) these images were not likened to poop floating in a pool. The feeling of seeing sub-par images among superb ones was.

This is a phenomenon in internet discussion that is a real problem. People start reading, they find one thing they disagree with. That feeling of disagreement carries on with the rest of the text and we end up misuderstanding the whole.

Let me rephrase and put this in a more concise sentence:
The images I put up as an example are very good, but not worthy of a place in the main galleries. This is only my opinion, but maybe I am not the only one that thinks this way, so I brought it up.
The imagination of a pool with feces in it was a ill-considered analogy meant to humorously report my feeling about sub-par photos in the MG. In no way were the two images mentioned before likened to this analogy.

I thought of not using images as my examples, but I understood that people have different views on what is sub-par and what isn't. I also wanted to create discussion about why these two would be ok instead of sub-par.

I thought it might hurt the feelings of the authors of these images, but I decided to use them anyway. How callous of me, right?

I don't think so. I carefully considered how I would feel if my image was mentioned as sub-par, and I decided that I would feel very bad, I would propably contest the subject if I felt differently, but ultimately I would approve of it, since I agree there is a need for moderation in this negative way too.

And ultimately I don't think any of my current photos are worthy of a place in the MG, save maybe one.

Thanks for the links, Akeraios, these example pictures in these have almost perfect composition.
Note that the look space rule does applies to the kitten, but has been overdone.

AAAand, I agree with Rob (third_eye). If people feel this bad about using live ammunition (real photos) as examples, then lets talk in words only.

If the authors of the images I posted are reading this, and do not agree with my actions, then I apologize.
If they feel bad about it, but perhaps accept it, then I commend you for superb maturity in being able to take this as a form of criticism. And then I apologize.

And one more comment: Pierre, I agree. I would rather see a lot of photos archived than the MG fill up with mediocrity.
EVEN if it breaks a few hearts along the way.

It's also possible that the authors of those images disagree with your judgment apart from your behavior.
A little humility would go a lot farther.

Akeraios, disagree with my judgement? Do not speak with the mouths of others. They might very well agree with me.

Here, let me turn this train around: I single out two pictures that I like, make sure I mention to everyone I like them myself, then describe how and why they do not belong the main galleries.
Then you come and judge my behaviour, telling me a little humility would go farther.

So I have to be humble, and NOT bring up my opinion? Hmm.. I agree that I could've not used real photos as example, but I explained already that it was a long process which lead to me using them.

I cannot disagree with you more if you feel like I've misbehaved.
I used strong methods to bring about discussion, sure, but misbehaving?
No. No, I have not.

I feel like this has slipped out of hand. I wanted to make discussion and I did decide to use strong methods, but looks like this has gotten out of hand. I did not wish to end up defending myself against any prosecution.

I do not want to be the antagonist here.

I just wanted the discussion to have more grounds to rely on. Real images, so I and others could have a feel to whether we even think the same way on what is good enough for the MG and what is not.

And I succeeded. Now we know for a fact (empirical) that our opinions on desktops are as varying as we are as people.

So the CAC is truly the only way to go, voting is the only way to go, if we want all sorts of images in the MG, not just the ones I think are good enough. =)

Tero, I think it is unfortunate that you singled out two images that by your standards are sub-par and then gave a graphic analogy of how subpar images made you feel. Despite your saying you liked both images the association was there and to many it could seem insulting, not only to the authors, but also to the selectors.

You have also said we should not promote snapshots under any circumstances - some snapshots make very good art/desktops and what is, and what is not, deemed a snapshot will vary with each individual, just as you so correctly state "Now we know for a fact (empirical) that our opinions on desktops are as varying as we are as people."
I believe this is something most of us observed and worked out for ourselves long since.

To illustrate, my own highest scoring/viewed/downloaded (also most ripped, I have seen it all over the net) is a snapshot - a one-off click that has proved popular. But I myself will always see it as a snapshot, nothing more, and I know there will be many others who also see it that way, but that does not prevent it from being popular as a desktop. (and for whatever purposes the rippers choose to use it for.)

Perhaps, if you felt you could not make your point without labeling specific images as below average you could have obtained the permission of the authors.


"The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust

Somehow I seemed to have ended up on both sides of the discussion :-\

I'm disappointed with some of what has ended up in the permanent galleries, and I think we all need to be demanding in our votes.

On the other hand, away from the extremes of good or bad art, I don't expect everyone to agree on the merits of works. I try, when commenting, not to be too dogmatic.

I think the more votes there are, especially from people who have had more experience in judging, the more likely we are to get an accurate judgment.

Taken from Wikipedia.org:

"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

I'm just sayin'...

The comment I made was looked up by a member.. an I am disruptive? QUIET Please Rob !! Im just saying ( Giving your 2cents back :)

Nah. Don't think I'll be quiet. I've been holding back from saying anything for a while. Post after post, I've sat back while you jump in, offer some rabid bits of commentary, often in an abrasive and rude manner.

so why not go cool off, and come back when you're ready to be civil?

Woo, I did start one after all. Ok, I guess I went too far, it's very hard sometimes to admit to oneself that you've made a mistake. It almost always is.

Yes, LynEve, you are right. Althought that permission would've never been given.
In some way I think asking for such a permission is even more hurtful than just going about using them.
Here is also how we are different in our opinions.

But the hurtfulness, yes, I can see that. I could see it before. I decided to go ahead because my belief is that even if most of us (me included) have understood that peoples opinions and tastes are different from one another, we cannot fathom it truly well before it is manifested.

So, in a somewhat rude and straightforward way, I manifested those differences, fully believing that these two images would not be defended so heavily.

I was wrong. And now I am sorry.

Tero, I have been reading this thread with great interest. I find myself somewhat falling into your camp.

Over the years I have had many comments with positive support and I have had many very critical reviews. The critical ones, at first, did put me off a bit. Why can’t people see what I saw and why can they not understand what I have created. But, after that initial reaction has passed, I go back and look at my picture through their eyes via their comments and I have learned more about coloring, more about composition, and more about the art of the photograph by doing so. By accepting their critical help, I believe I have improved.

If you had used one of my pictures as one of your examples, I think I would have been surprised and a little miffed. But then, as I settled in with the information provided and the reasons it was selected, I hope I would be understanding, and maybe, grateful, for the critical review.

I have to agree with Shads (casechaser)

Feel free to use any of my photos if you can find one in the perms. :)

Well, thanks, guys. Now I do not feel so alone "against the world".
I have had my time of being thoughtful, but that almost never lead to anything, except a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings. Physical or straight examples usually work the best.

The mentality "when making an omelet, you gotta break a few eggs" is quite on the button here.
I mean, my goal was not to hurt anyone, my goal was to give examples that were concrete, that would lead to a discussion where the basis was not an intangible, was not theory, but practice.

Maybe next time I will not use other peoples images without permission, though.

That said, I give permission to use my images as public examples in any constructive form of criticism, for example to single out if somebody thinks one of them does not belong in the main galleries (if indeed some of them are in the perms =D )

Well, here I am.. again. While I won't be drawing any graphic references (ahem! :P) to my experience, or singling out any specific images, this needs to be said.

I'm really disappointed with more than a few choices my fellow members are making in selecting images for the Main Gallery, via the Art Council process.

While I'll readily admit that in some of these images, the subject or scene portrayed is quite interesting, the shot itself, not it's subject, is what, IMO, should determine an image's placement(in the Main gallery). And, honestly, I don't see that distinction being made.

Now, I'm making every effort to be tactful here. But seriously, guys (and ladies) please use a bit more restraint. BE tougher. Be more selective. DON'T, as I saw in one person's comment click yes "to be nice". Here's why I say this.

Aside from you and I, the "regular, or semi-regular members viewing the "perms", and hopefully learning from them, or emulating them (a point I'll revisit in a sec), visitors and guests look there for their daily or occasional wallpaper fix.
Now granted, some images posted here would never be used for that application anyway (ie verticals, unless it's for a smartphone) but this is still a wallpaper site. As has been mentioned elsewhere, by others, visitorship has plummeted.

I can let the implication be made by others, or I can make it myself. Less people are coming, because quality is dropping. Period. Now, I guess if "we" are perfectly ok to keep this as some insular little world, where a finite group of individuals keep back-slapping and up-voting each other, than great. But then that goes back to my originally mis-understood comment about inbreeding. In an inbreeding environment, more and more creatures, people or whatever are born from the same, limited gene pool. No outside source to "freshen things up". Here, in Caedes, the "gene pool" is the sum of images, the majority of which are posted by regulars. And, if we're posting stuff that's similar in appearance, color, or theme, it's not really a learning, or growing environment. Friendly, sure, but then isn't that what myspace, facebook, and flickr are for?

Ok, I wandered a bit. Oops. But getting back to the reason I'm posting here, please don't put an image up for CAC vote (or promote it) based on friendship, or "niceness" of the subject.

And, as I've said before, we'll all benefit in the end. Honest.

:o) < obligatory smile icon

Voting to be nice is counter productive, as if the image is below par it will probably be removed from the main galleries anyway and the individuals feelings are more likely to be hurt than boosted...

The Art Council debate seems to be no different than the C-Index, voting, comment w/critiques etc.

It has been hammered to death without success except to drive people away. (Both those who crave honest critique and those who believe their shot is the absolute best ever).

I am not sure there is any malice involved in 'nominating'....possibly lack of knowledge but not intentional 'upping'...IMO.

This is a 'community' and people generally want to be involved in a harmonious community (remember: the Internet is an escape for many),hence the 'nice shot' comments or 'to be nice' incidents.

This doesn't make it right yet being a world wide website with continual new people makes awareness difficult.

Et tu, Bru.. erm Mimi?

Unfortunately I think in the end that the system will have to adjust to users quirks, rather than the other way round.

I believe the system is the only factor that can. Good luck trying to adjuct the users. :)

What about restricting the requirements for the art council a bit more. Perhaps this:

You must have at least 2 to 3+ permanent images in the category of the image in question to promote and vote on it.

For example: only a someone who is consistently a good fractal artist that has approved fractal images can promote fractal images. Only those who are skilled in photography can vote on them. That way only those who are very skilled in that arena is voting on it and has the most scrupulous standards being used on the image in question.

We can adjust these slightly (number of images, restriction of categories, etc) but this is the barebones of the idea.

The reason I suggest this is because when I received the invitation to be part of the art council, I, in an honest evaluation of my skills thought that I would not be the best voting on photography images for approval. Sure I know what makes a good photo and I'm learning but that's not enough for me to be making a honest, professional and fair judgement in my humble opinion. Now I've done bunches of fractal images so I would be much more comfortable voting on those.

Lemme know your thoughts everyone!

And you get booted off the AC if you edit your posts ...

whatever do you mean? =P

I do not think members need professional skills to to nominate or judge an image (of any genre) All we are being asked to do is help in selecting images we think are good examples to poplulate the Main Galleries, which open the door to the rest of the Personal Galleries. Our Image Mods still have the final say and the option to not promote any image. CAC members have the option to vote against or abstain from voting on any image, and if we all vote fairly and impersonally as well as being impersonal and unbiased in our nominations then only the best examples should be promoted. Any images we do not feel comfortable voting on there is no obligation to do so, and they are passed on to other members.
I have mentioned before that maybe more votes being required per nominated image would give a more accurate judgement but the system seems to be working - looking through the first few pages in the Main Galleries sorted by date, and then again sorted randomly, the quality appears to be of a similar standard.
LE :)

I've been sort of out-of-the-loop, but after perusing the new gallery images, I agree with LynEve's observation. There are some really fine and delightful choices made and I'm happy to see such beautiful admissions. Hats off to the artists.

I just got an Art Council vote request that begs the question...

Are you people serious?!?

While no, I'm not going to single out the image in question, I am going to say that it was over-edited, just ok or ordinary in terms of subject or composition, and in no way outstanding.

The main gallery shouldn't be a goody bag of images churned out by your pals. Having an image that got permed used to be a special thing, an honor. Not something that was a foregone conclusion if enough people just wanted to be nice and go with the flow.

I'm no mod. I don't have any authority here, nor do I attempt to project that I do. I'm a member, like each and every one of you, and I give a damn about the quality of the site and it's images. Am I just like you in that regard as well? I hope so.

Amen!
I must say that the CAC is actually promoting some very good images but also a lot of common uploads.
PLEASE! Be more critical...
Before to click on 'yes' or 'no', you've to ask yourself one question: "This image would have a place in a photography exhibition?"

The main galleries ARE a permanent exhibition!

You know, just as an afterthought, I'd like to leave a few more words. My apologies if this isn't exactly the proper place for them.

It's usually after I leave a post in the forums, in either a critical or disagreeing tone, that viewership and/or comments on my work often decreases, or at times, screeches to a halt. Scores on my images also take a nosedive. Ok, message sent and received.

But you know what? Whether my images get ignored, whether I as an individual get ignored, what I'm saying in these threads needs saying. In the past, I learned alot at this site, and it wasn't from the "nice shot" comments. It was usually from some harsh, or at least very critical comment. I dusted off my ego ,and tried my best to learn from the experience.

So as far as I'm concerned, I'm repaying a debt. And if the price is banishment, but things improve here on the site for members that come here after me, I can live with that. But that's not to say that I don't think it doesn't suck. So thanks for nothing, as far as that's concerned.

Ok, said my piece. The floor goes to whomever... Speak at your own risk, though.

*idly wondering how many times Rob has banished himself*

Using the numbers of views of our work to gauge our personal popularity seems a wasted exercise to me.
Recently my side my side views for images was 201/54 - and looking at a similar case in yours Rob I see side by side views 223/78. IMHO this reflects the wider appeal of the images (taking into account that visitors are included in the view numbers) as wallpaper material. It is also worth noting that in each case the higher viewed ones were AC nominations and the lower ones are not. Also needing to be factored in with the total views is the number of times we view our own images to check comments.
I do not think there would be any disagreement that there is work being nominated that does not meet a high enough standard but with a large pool of allowed nominators this is unavoidable and those who take the time to exercise their votes are the ones that help determine the outcome. Images should be voted on their merits, not the artist.

*sniffs at the bait, is overwhelmed by the toxic fumes and keeps moving*

Do you suppose you could actually address the site related issue instead?

A simple response to your post was made completely free of any toxicity.
Your dissatisfaction in the number of views/votes on your images and the state of your dusted off ego is hardly a site related issue anyway.

'Do you suppose' you could actually allow others to have their say without taking it so personally?

*Sniffs . . . and moves on*

FYI, Lyn, my comment was not in response to yours, but to the one prior to it.

" 'Do you suppose' you could actually allow others to have their say without taking it so personally?"

Seriously?

Sorry, I won't try to lighten the atmosphere any more. I didn't realize my sense of humor was so toxic :-(

I have addressed the issue before, on this thread and others. I can't think of anything new to say at present.

@third_eye:


Quote from the front page article, referencing "Art Council Changes":

2. We will be looking at the voting history in order to identify users who are fair and have a good track record of voting 'yes' on quality images and 'no' on sub-standard ones. Over time, Art Council members who vote unfairly or inconsistently will be replaced by new members.


So ... 'patience', seems to be the operative word as the process and member selection is refined.

@third_eye:

Well I am still sniffing - and unfortunately I am not a mind reader, and assumed (something one should never do) that as your comment followed my response to your post that it was indeed meant for me.
As for Seriously? - yes seriously !
I have been lectured in the past for doing just that - taking general comments personally, but I have grown a thicker skin since then and try to see a different point of view when it is pointed out without getting my knickers in a knot. And anyway walking was becoming a problem.