Third Eye's:

"...how about this, breaking the voting up into several categories? say.. 0-5 or whatever on technical merit, 0-5 on composition, and 0-5 on 'overall feel'..? ..." - Third_Eye

Noahnott's:

1) Each person votes 1-10 on the image, and a message to go along with it explaining why they got a 5, 10, etc.
2) Min of 5 votes per image now that voters have to write something instead of just pushing a button. For sllooowww dialup users, this would be a good thing.
3) After the minimum of 5 votes is achieved along w/ the messages, then a PM is sent to the author of the image showing all the messages, along with the c-index score recived.

Difference between this and Madmavin's idea is it's for all images, not just the 0-1's. And the difference between this and just putting up a suggestion is a) People are forced to say something...or at least somewhat are. b) It's a private message c) Tells the author why they get what they get rather than a "Good image" "Wow" "Nice" etc etc.

Also, people give better, more accurate voting scores...rather than open the image, stare at it for litterally 1 second, and give a quick number w/out thinking/looking at the image.

I get where you are coming from...but wanted to avoid making VOTING a major task because most people are kinda lazy about voting or do it begrudgingly in the first place......still and all....whatever works...

Umm...maybe there could be voting mods. =P People that check the comments left every so once in a while, ppl who write bad comments get a red x, and...well, you can do anything from there, delay of 1 day for posting an image, etc.

Also, for the people who take the idea for my voting system seriously, the author can look at the comments, and at least 1 of the 5 will be a good one.

I say .... we all log a valid bank account with the site ... the lower you vote the more money is sent to the author

a 10 .. the author sends you a nickel

a 5 .. you send the author $20

a 0 .. you send the author $100 .. to cover emotional pain and counseling


oh .. I guess I need to create my own thread or risk not being taken seriously

how about this, breaking the voting up into several categories? say.. 0-5 or whatever on technical merit, 0-5 on composition, and 0-5 on 'overall feel'..?

Lol, i wouldent mind getting paid 10 bucks for every good comment i leave...i might actually put some thought into them.

*note the overuse of 'lol' i use*

Thrid eye's suggestion was fairly good. I think that would be more productive.

third_eye's suggestion seems to be pretty good. There's been quite a few images I'd have liked to give a higher grade except for a certain area was lacking. Plus with his suggestion the author may get an idea on where improvements could be done. This would probably be better than forcing the voter to type out a comment (which would most likely end up with people putting things in like nice image, it sucks and so on...)

I think it is a good idea but, for me at least, the time involved would cut down greatly on the number of pictures I have time to vote on. We do already have the ability to make a comment or suggestion about the picture,either publicly or privately and if we choose to could also say 'I gave you a 5 in the VB because of whatever' and then give suggestions for improvements. Rather than lowering the number of required votes I think it would be better to increase them, giving a truer average. I think perhaps anything that makes the voting procedure more complicated would be a deterrent for many. Terri perhaps makes a generalisation by saying most people vote begrudgingly. I for one dont, I enjoy it, I take it seriously, and along the way learn a lot and find new galleries to view. We are frequently told not to take the c-index too seriously and for that reason I think the voting is ok as it is except perhaps for more votes being allowed on each upload. I would certainly be interested to know the reasons for any low votes on my pictures, its the only way to learn, but as I said before that avenue is already open, and if you are concerned about a particular picture you can put in a Request For Comment, something I have just done for one of mine, with interesting and enlightening results.

I still think the voting requirement should be lower. People would freak out (I personally would not post images for that reason, or just write down "good job, no comments") if they still had to vote on at least 10 images AND comment on why they gave that score...

...that just yields to comments of poor quality and a bunch of fluff rather than quality. The c-index is just to give a general idea, and out of 5 people i think that would be sufficient, especially if they are forced to look at it and give a good response. I'm pretty sure people know what's "good" and "bad."

i actually DO love voting....
and also consider it a Caedesian duty....that I SHOULD do if I truly care about the others here.
BUT...I have seen people who whine about low c-index and you can look and see they rarely vote themselves....but whine a whole lot. YES...some people have dial-up and other good excuses {I guess} not to vote...but in my humble opinion...I think VOTING is the most important obligation one should have here...and it should be taken seriously. One moment of being careless....or maybe just in a bad mood....could cause you to carelessly give a score undeserved...whether too low or too high. I have caught myself in a hurry....{being totally honest here}....rushing thru voting...and then realize...hey...that aint right.....slow down....LOOK.....or do this later.
At any rate...I am glad a FEW folks have jumped on thread/s here to work on suggestions...and not just whine. Thanks for all who do care!:) MM

5 is way too low. And if they were required to give reasons for their votes they would need to know a great deal more than whether the picture is good or bad. They would need to be able to express clearly and intelligently their opinion, and have the knowledge to give advice for improvement. Many people are unable to do that, even though they can recognise a good picture when they see one.
The fact that many pictures get a 'bunch of fluff' is of no consequence as there are almost always a few gems of advice scattered through. And if people want to give advice or suggestions they can (and do), they should not be 'required' to. With all the goodwill in the world there are some that will never be capable of giving a constructive criticism, either through lack of knowledge or lack of confidence. That does not mean they should be banned from expressing their appreciation of a work, or voting on it. I know it would exclude me.

I just want to add two things. The first is that I too, used to not only vote regularly, but see it as a duty,and participation in an integral part of the site as a whole. I've been somewhat discouraged and discouraged for a few different reasons, most of which I've already discussed ad nauseum (maybe literally :P).

Here's the the second thing I'd like to point out. On images that I wasn't happy with, or didn't feel were 'up to snuff'', after castingmy vote, i'd go to the image and look for others' comments. I'll say in...at least 6 out of 10 images (which I'd voted low on) there'd invariably be at least several "oh wow's" or "this is really nice" or "great job".

People, you aren't helping anyone (including yours truly) by heaping praise on mediocre, or sub-par images. I understand the desire to "be nice" and I'm not blind to the political undercurrent here. It becomes difficult, if not impossible to add an honest, well-intentioned critique under comments of thundering praise.

I could go on, but it's all been said before. I just thought it needed to be re-iterated.

I sort of agree...but then again....how do you know Rob, that the oh wows are NOT sincere?
I might like something YOU think totally sucks....and vice versa

hmm, fair statement, seeing how i generalized. what i should have said was, "images with fairly obvious flaws, or aspects that should have been noticed,and pointed out, for the benefit of the artist's continued growth, as opposed to stroking their ego"

For the record, i DO happen to believe in liking an image that's not um... technically up to par. what i'm saying is, point out the positive, but not without lending a helping hand as well. Lord knows, a good batch of my own stuff could easily fall into that category. so if my last post seemed judgemental, it wasn't. better?

RE: the "Oh Wows"

Yes .. the "signal to noise ratio" is pretty low .. and it discourages me from pointing out, what I feel are, obvious low points .... and this is on "comment requests" that generate for the images needing attention

i DOOOOO understand Rob dear...and didn't mean to sound so harsh...{sorry}...didn't mean it like you took it...I just meant...sincerely...sometimes I see an image that I think is great and maybe it's not { to somebody else}. More frequently....sometimes I make a manip or fractal and think hey...it's kinda cool! Then everybody else thinks it sucks...hahahaha

hey, for all i know, a fair amount of my work, in the eyes of others, does suck. the low scores i've received would suggest just that. all i'm saying is, those same images should have someone coming up and saying..hey, do this and that differently. seeing a litany of 'oh wows' and a CI in the 30's.. to me... means something doesnt add up. and now i'm bowing out of this before it gets any deeper. :o)

grab a six pack on the way over...ok?:)

Can i tell the point i've made b4: The new votes will be quality, not quantitty and ppl will actually, maybe, try to make a good suggestion.

Noah, there is no guarantee whatsoever that the the new votes will be quality !! Is is still the same group of people voting, just fewer of them. Those who take voting seriously ALREADY visit pictures voted on and make comments and suggestions. Why force the rest, who either can't or don't want to, to do so. Just let them say WOW or Neat, or I love this. Its not hurting anyone.

I agree the comments and the C-Index often do not reconcile, but no one is likely to leave a comment "hey I hate this picture", unless they have something constructive to say. Therefore the favourable comments are from people who have actually liked it, or from those who are trying to be kind. Either way, once again, it does no harm - - and some of you would say does no good either. I disagree with that, that someone has bothered to look at and comment on a picture, what's bad about that? Its all relative anyway, some of my own efforts I have thought ok have gone down like lead balloons, so the folk who commented that they liked it are ok with me - I did too or I would not have uploaded it in the first place:) If it has screamingly bad faults I have found I am usually told about them.

There are those who offer serious opinions here because they want to, no amount of rule changing will alter that, it will still be the same people doing the serious critiques.

word !!

I think what third_eye's getting at is that people will stop in to say nice image, but won't necessarily say why they like it . There's nothing wrong with this of course, if someone went through the trouble of commenting nice image, I'm sure they mean it. All the nice and wow comments makes it difficult (or uncomfortable perhaps is a better way to put it) for someone to give acritique or comment on improvements, that while still positive might be construed as negative when compared with all the positive comments above it. I think that this timidness (if you could call it that) is understandable.

I feel that there is a genuine concern for not only self improvement by some artists on this site, but also a concern to afford every caedes.net user that "luxury" of improvement. It seems like this has been an on going concern for awhile (I'm relatively new to this site as an artist, so I don't know the whole background).

It seems like an arduous (sp?) task, this coming up of a painless (but still effective) voting/commenting system. Changes to the voting system would obviously affect every user to a certain degree. I think that the only fair way to decide is to let the users vote on their own voting/commenting system (if that would be allowed by Caedes and or upper senate members). Perhaps taking the most discussed and threshed out ideas for a system and putting those ideas up for voting for say a week or month maybe and letting the general populace of caedes.net voting on it.

Sorry for the long post, I've been studying sociology today (not a knock on any of you sociologists out there). Whenever I do study it, it makes me want to rant/write long expanses of words... so yeah, I hope I didn't bore ya with my ramblings :)

Hi Photo-Guy! Thanks...all opinions are valuable...and we appreciate yours and I personally think it's a good idea.
However....I think this all went into over-kill again and could have maybe all been on one thread...so maybe we are all just spinning our tires in the sand again....*sighs*

LynEve...I'm with you babe....:)

I have just read through this whole thread and am somewhat perturbed by third_eye's reference to a political undercurrent here.
I dont 'do ' politics so I'm out of here . . . . .
Bye

Double werd on LynEve's post (12/02/06 5:18 PM).

Like Canuck said, I'm less willing to post a constructive/negative comment when there are a lot of people giving praise. If there is something that I do like, I try to work that angle and then toss in what could be better in an understated way. If there is nothing I like, I tend to just avoid commenting at all.

I like the idea of diversifying the voting, but the forcing of comments is likely to just annoy people. The c-index is an ok system, though I wouldn't mind if each picture was getting around 20 votes instead of the 15-18 they currently get, just to balance the c-index a little more, and potentially get the shots out to a wider audience. From that wider audience, the comments would increase I think, though it wouldn't solve the comment-quality problem. The RCL index makes no sense to me...it just seems like it's the c-index minus 3, no matter what.

The only voting problem I can think of is the range of styles a person has to vote on, specifically fractals vs. photography. I rarely give fractals a high vote as I tend to really just not like them (sorry people). On the other hand, I'll bet there are people out there who love fractals, but tend to give lower scores to photography stuff. What if there were a check box in the voting booth to include/disclude fractals, or a variety of different styles? That way people could vote on the things they care/know about. This might create a rift in the caedes community, but for all I know it already exists.

what about a small text window that comes up after you have full viewed the image in voting booth?..
Its compulsory to full view the image so why cant it be when you've closed the full view a little text window pops up and makes it compulsory to leave a comment, then you can rate the image.. maybe even the text window could have,
(a) Techinical merit
(b) Composition
(c) Overall feel

that way people have to leave a few words about it..

Just a thought...

Not to burst anyones bubble but the idea of categorical voting has been floated several times in the past. I believe caedes is quite happy with the current system as it is.

That makes two of us then :)

I still like the Second Chance idea. With strict limitations.

Sorry, I didn't know the idea had been floated before, I'm new to this site.

I don't want to stick my nose where it doesn't belong, but this seems to be an issue that hasn't been resolved (as Samatar mentions it's been brought up several times before). I know not everybody will agree on whether a new voting system is good or not. But could a vote be held by the caedes.net users asking if they are satisfied with the current voting system? This way at least the bulk of the users opinions could be known and either progress could start on figuring out a new system or the issue could be put to rest.

Just looking to help improve the site, as I have come to quite enjoy it here! :)

Would it be possible to have a choice when voting?
By this I mean two discrete random voting booths - one for photography and one for fractals or computer generated images?

I for one feel happy to give a critique on a photograph - but very wary of the same on a fractal - because I don't know the level of expertise required for these.

but what happens to the members who like to vote on both computer generated images and photography?

They can do so many of each???? In fact a 1 photo to 10 fractal seems appropriate, perhaps, for yourself? It would be your choice which voting booth to go into.

Yeah, 2 voting booths is a good plan, and so long as a person votes on 10 images, be it all in one booth or varied, then it's just like how it is now, but better.

*caedes has, at one time or another, expressed an interest in accomodating this "split" ... whether his view has changed .. or .. where its place on the schtuff-too-doo list is ..

is anybody's guess

I think our time would be better served if we started an office pool for when a given change will be implemented ... Date\Time .. using the stardate calendar, of course

I will hold the money .. since I am of the vaunted Aediles .. (responsible for public works and games)

I got a new idea:

You can choose what type of stuff you can vote on, but instead of using numbers, you get 10 pictures/vote and you just arrange them in order from best to worst. If you can compare pictures from each other i think that would be more accurat?

just a guess, noah, but anything that even appears to make things more elaborate and complicated (like the idea you just posted) are going to be shot down,and probably...rightly so. i'm guessing anything that has half a prayer of being considered should be streamlined and simple.

...i got a little carried away there, again. Come to think of it, WHY would caedes even want to do one of those complicated ideas...the only one easy enough (which i dont even know how he will make it) would be the selective voting. :-S

...but the system we have now is actually not THAT bad if you think about it.

it's not the system that is broken .. it's the people using it ...

wait ... that didn't come out sugar-coated enough ..

Glib - too glib! Think about it...

upgrade to the cloak of glib defense +1 .. the vendor in caedeshire sells it

You win!

Offtopic..but: wo! you suprised me there with that 'online rpg game talk.'

Haven't a clue what you mean! I'm just tired.

I'm on another site that does the technical merit etc. system and you can leave your name or remain anonymous..it seems to work quite well. The photo is rated even if only one person votes on it. Maybe the upload quota thing would work with it. You must vote on so many photos to upload....a put up or shutup.

Or maybe even put a comment box right on the voting page...i'm always too LAZY to go to the other page to leave a comment (you know me). But hey, if it was sitting in front of me, i'll type away all you want. :-D Not like it would help.

...simple idea too (i think).

Goodnight! Cya in the morning (if i'm still alive, but dont worry about that)... :-D