I like the idea of being limited in the nominations, and also the idea of keeping track of the voting history of the art council. This should help in the quality of the images selected. =^..^=sandi♥

Ditto, tig -

This all sounds good, very reasonable. One question though-- how are you determining unfair or inconsistent votes? Does that mean that someone whose opinion ends up differing from the norm (someone who tends to be in the minority, voting "no" on images that end up getting a "yes" to the main galleries) will be excluded? you need some outlier votes, otherwise you'll end up with a voting body that all thinks the same way and the same type of images will always get voted into the main galleries. i'm trying to think about what you could do mathematically to determine someone who seems to vote with bias or without actually weighing their decision. maybe someone who almost ALWAYS votes yes or ALWAYS votes no? or someone who almost NEVER agrees with the consensus?

I think that was a point well said, but I also think there is quality in all works, in the box or out of the box. It's the quality of the image or art work no matter what kind of work it is that Caedes is looking for. I think sometime people nominate an image because it is a freinds work, and maybe even vote it in for the same reason not really looking at the true meaning of quality. One just needs to look at some of the beautiful images, fractals and other works in the perm. gallery to know what quality is all about. It is what first caught my eye when I found Caedes.

Sounds like alot of thought and sense of fair play went into these changes and as Sandi said, I too think it should help in the quality of images selected and as well, how people behave in the VB...thank you Mr. Caedes.

I applaud the ongoing attempt to increase involvement of members and the willingness of Caedes to include all regulars (Cadre or not.) in these developments. The new process seems like a sensible next step in fine tuning the innovation of the Art Council. There are photos I like and I download which I would never nominate for the perm gallery and would never vote for them if someone else did because I think the Perm gallery should represent the best examples of the genres or subjects that are found here, not "every good example". We ought be able to make a distinction between "images I like" and "images of outstanding value/quality/uniqueness."
When it was instigated I wondered if the Arts Council process would end up putting a LOT of images in the perm gallery that might not really be appropriate there. Good to see ongoing thinking and fine tuning going on.
Mikel.

Bob, I would hope that what is meant is exactly the opposite of your first example. I am sure it is expected that only a few images rather than many are expected to be 'permed'. I also expect (hope?) that should a CAC member vote (see things so radically) differently from Geri and his team, that a change would be made. After all... this is Geri's site... for us, it is only our favourite site! :o)

I think the new changes to the arts council is a step forward, we shouldn't vote yes for images we like, instead we should only vote yes for images that are very good/excellent. Limiting the amount of images we can add to the arts council will help keep the "only good images" out of the voting system.

One question though where are images that have been voted successful going to now ?

If you go back, say, 20 pages in the main gallery you will find a page of varied images from many genres, many with scores of under 70. Looking at the images coming through from the new AC it would appear to be dominated by brightly coloured photographs. Yesterday morning 8 of the first 12 images were sunsets/sunrises, two almost identical and almost every image had a score of 80 or more. The one at 59 I promoted.

I hope this is an aberration and things will settle down. What I fear is that with so few opportunities to promote images there will be a concentration on friends and on chocolate box type images. I wonder who will promote the more obscure or new artists that used to be picked up by the mods? Indeed, if anyone promotes these types of images they may fall foul of the inconsistency or bad quality rules being laid down if the image is outside the tastes of the AC and fails to get the requisite number of votes.

It would appear that I cannot vote 'no' on any good quality image. If, for example, I see the 5th sunset in a few days I cannot vote no, as that would be inconsistent, even though my own feelings is that it is too similar to another image or there are enough of that type. Perhaps a reason for a vote should be given so that any analysis can better understand the reasoning, which may not obvious at a later date and open to misinterpretation.

I also see that one competition entry has already been permed. I would suggest that this is a little biased.

The image Jinjellic Rainbows has been promoted to the permanent galleries
by the Caedes Art Council.

/\This is what I got this morning to vote on, but how????
There's no abstain, yes or no to click on!!!

EDIT

Nevermind my question, already know the answer :oD

I had been a member of the Art Council. The images I chose to recommend were those that a) had an above average or better overall quality, b) an outstanding artistic nature, and c) seemed like it might be, or was overlooked by those who have grown accustomed to certain types of images.

What I chose not to promote, were any images that were just 'ok'. In one instance, I seem to recall one image who's only reason for promotion was the popularity of the person posting it.

Being different isn't, to be clear, not what I'm saying an image should be promoted for. Not exclusively. But conversely, it shouldn't be a reason not to be. I once posted an image that got a whole (count them) 26 points in the VB. The reason for it's mention now, is that the mod who promoted it (thanks, btw) told me he had promoted it to the perms for it's uniqueness. So, I'd like to ask you to follow that mods example and think outside the box.

Thanks

I assume this isn't supposed to take the place of the moderators. We still need a few people to go through systematically so images don't get overlooked.
This just makes it a little less of an absolute monarchy!

"If, for example, I see the 5th sunset in a few days I cannot vote no, as that would be inconsistent, even though my own feelings is that it is too similar to another image or there are enough of that type."

This is one of the things that I always weigh up carefully when promoting images; whenever I am unsure whether to promote an image I always try to compare it in my mind to what is in the perms and decide if it offers something above what is already there. Sunsets definitely fit into the category of images that must be absolutely outstanding as there are so many spectacular shots of these. On the other hand, if I see a photo of something that is very rarely uploaded, I might consider promoting it despite the fact that it may have some technical errors (for example) if it is the only example of the genre we have on the site...

I hope that people who vote in the council will be able to make judgements more easily as time goes on... experience is really the only way to learn after all.

Otherwise I guess we will be having some big "spring cleans"!

I'm really excited about this! And especially to be a part of the art council. Having more input is wonderful because there are so many beautiful images hidden throught this site! Some get lost :( Great idea and I can't wait to see how it turns out!

Thanks for giving this a whirl and being willing to try new things! There's never a perfect answer for every issue, but this is a good effort.

I enjoy being on the Art Council, and I can honestly say that I am not biased. I can also say that I am not an expert. I just know what I like. I vote for the images that I wish I took :)

I just tried taking the time to visit the permed area for pets... because I was considering nominating a pet picture that I thought was very appealing and well done! Upon seeing what was already there, I felt certain about what my action had to be. I am putting this here simply to suggest perhaps a similar action... whether stepping out of our box or not! :o)

First, I'm honored to be chosen as part of the Art Counsil given my meager offerings. Given the often subjective nature of such judgements, my personal criteria hierarchy has been technical considerations first (including whether the image even qualifies as a wallpaper), and artistic excellence second. As I prefer nature images to, say, fractals, I can't promise objectivity. Is there something more I should be considering?

- Mike

Rob... I will now mention yet another item on my agenda...
because of Art Council Changes -> Third_eye 28/08/10   14:20 and that is Browsing from the last page of the New Images towards the first and keeping a list of images to nominate... perhaps a good place to keep it is in a pm to yourself... that way links to the image can be stored as well.
:o)

:o)

Geri... I just went browsing and noticed no Art Council buttons on any of the thumbnails. That is a BIG negative for having nominated two images to be permed. I am not able to plan my attack for the next round. It would be much better if you could have the buttons greyed-out and in-active once we have nominated two images... that way we can see which images are still able to be nominated. See my 16:45 msg... :o)

I just looked through the first 2 pages of the Main Galleries, and I'm disappointed with a number of the images promoted. They ought to be the outstanding ones, not just anything that doesn't have obvious faults.

Three nearly identical sunrise shots ...

OK, Maybe this is answered somewhere and I missed it.

When I chose for a photo to be included in the Perm gallery. I feel it should be a 10, correct?

I see a lot of nice photos when I get them, but I'm looking for the best. Should I be thinking this way, or should I be a little more lenient on the judging.

Also on the altered/abstract should I be voting on them on eye appeal alone, because I don't understand the technical side of these works?

Thank You for an answer.

Rich, to answer your question on the altered/abstract images...if you feel unable to judge/critique them, you can use the "abstain" button :)

As for a photo to be a'10'..yes, in most cases probably a good rule to use, there are a few exceptions however; an example is images that are less than stellar quality but quite unique in presentation or subject matter.

If in doubt, you can always check the Main gallery and compare the image to similar ones that are already there and in addition, see if there is an abundance of that type of photographic/image!

Hope this helps! :o)

Don't worry too much if you think too many images are being promoted or that some are not up to standard. The "perms" are not fixed in stone (despite the name) and we often went through and weeded out those which are no longer up to par, even before the art council started. I imagine the process will evolve as time progresses.

Thanks Mimi, It helps a lot.

Is there a clear cut set of criteria which can be applied to what should be the best of the best.... and what are the qualifications of those determining the criteria and delivering final judgement.

There are many who have a working knowledge of composition or have a natural eye for it, while there are far more without these advantages, that continually come up with excellent subject material, but without sufficient knowledge of composition and balance or photo editing experience to compose and edit their image to qualify as best of the best. It's simply not a level playing field, unless I've missed something significant (and that's a real possibility).
I've been told that I have some images in the Permanent collection, and for the most part, I can't imagine why.
I was in kindergarten, studying digital photo editing #101 when literally everything in my galleries was uploaded.
Maybe the images were ok, but I'm sure the editing left much to be desired.
If there's already an answer to my question, would some kind member point me in the right direction :-).

When you have to vote for a promotion into the perms, please, don't look only with your heart!
Open it at full size, look at the composition (not just the basic rules, but also the presence of focal points, their arrangement in the photo, ...) and the technical qualities. Supersaturated colors are not a guarantee of quality, but rather a 'camouflage'...
I saw in the perms a photo with a huge vignetting...
We must be more demanding if we want to defend the quality of the site. Thanks!

Of course it's not a "level playing field". Some people are naturally better artists than others, and some have learned more (and some would rather not learn).
How could it and why should it be level?

If I am unsure which way to vote I look at the first few pages in the relevant gallery and ask myself is it as good as or better than the quality displayed there. The answer is usually fairly obvious. Only the very highest standard should be accepted for the perm galleries and although I enjoy considering and voting for those nominated I am glad it is still the Image Mods who make the final decisions. Hopefully our input is helpful.

It was reassuring to read in another thread that they, the Mods are still selecting their choices independent of nominations because I have seen some very fine images that have not been nominated - I was 'watching' some while deciding on my 2 perhaps for future nomination but now that I have nominated my 2 allowable weekly ones the nomination button has disappeared from all images which makes it a bit difficult.

I only realised that this happens when for one wonderful minute it seemed that all my images had been nominated !!! LOL, back to reality with a thud.

It would be good if the button did not dissappear from out own pictures if that were possible.

I'm using the same method, Lyn. Looking at the perms into the relevant gallery. And... yes! The answer is often obvious. :-)

Actually, the CAC promotes itself the best works, even if it's a test phasis.
We (the mods) are adding some forgotten images and sometimes we remove some permed images (for example, I found two ± same sunsets from the same author, taken at the same place and the same moment).

However, I think the new system promotes too many works and we are afraid to fill up quickly the permanent galleries...

I have been using this same method as well... and I think I noticed a miss-placed image in the sunset/rise area... it was Rays Over The St Johns II - Tim Weir, a lovely image! It might be a good idea not only to look for images that can make room for others but to check that they are in a proper holding area. :o)
It wouldn't surprise me that I am wrong because there is such a thing as best fit... but I would think Skies would be a better fit.
Perhaps Pierre is wondering if maybe we should be restricted to nominating one image rather than two for each 7 day period if that would help reduce the number of promoted images. It might be that or a reduction in the number of those nominating images.

Geri... Others have also commented on the missing 'Art Council' button... I will repeat the idea of a greyed-out inactive button rather than a missing button, if possible.

I have refrained from nominating at least one image because it was in the wrong gallery (not debatable, unless I was really missing something in the picture!).

Ok, a question then. Supposing an image might be ill-fitting in the gallery it was uploaded to, but relatively stellar in a gallery that's more relevant. Promote the image anyway, and move it, or reject it?

Promote it and send a PM to any mod with the link to the image....in can then be moved to the correct gallery :=)

If I nominate an image I understand I get notification if it is accepted by the AC for the permanent galleries. Understood and appreciated.

I have a question - and a suggestion



Question (s) -
If I vote for the nomination of someone else how do I know whether it has been accepted ?
I presume the nomination button stays absent once an image is nominated, regardless of whether it is accepted or not, and as all images now appear as part of a specific gallery with no distinction between permanent and 'new image' there seems to be no way of knowing the status of a viewed image. Is it missing the nominate button because it is currently being voted on, accepted and permed, or because it is rejected and out of the running.

Or . . . does the nominate button come back if it is rejected so that it may be re-nominated and another round of votes begin?

Perhaps I have missed something ?

Suggestion -
Some little indication similar to the 'archived' asterisk could be added to the image title if it is part of the Permanent Galleries.


I agreee there seems to be some (several, many, too many)images nominated that appear to be not perm quality but I guess everyone has different perceptions of what is acceptable and what is not.


:)LE

1. There is no notification currently. The only indication that an image is in the "perms" is that it appears under "Main Galleries" somewhere.

2. An image cannot be nominated multiple times.

TY :)

"Suggestion -
Some little indication similar to the 'archived' asterisk could be added to the image title if it is part of the Permanent Galleries."

This may belong in another thread, but I agree, it would be nice to have some indication on the Control page.

That was not exactly what I meant :)
I meant on the title of the image as it appears on the site, in the Galleries, not in our control panel, although that would also be informative.

"I don't know much about art, but I know what I like".

Or something to that effect.

So who knows what will win through or not.

J.

I do feel honoured to be asked to be part of the art council but given the fact that the votes (and who votes what) are being monitored I would LOVE a place to optionally provide a comment or a reason why I vote the way I do. e.g I recently saw a beautiful picture ... unfortunately with a corporate logo in the middle, certainly in context but which caused me to vote no. This would be clear if i could have left an reason. (and would possibly make it less of a risk of me being tagged as an inconsistent voter). When I look at the picture I look full size, at the composition, the sharpness (or not) etc. it is not a trivial thing.

Is there any 'Medal Of Honor For Fast Clickers To AC'? I can't believe but some people clicks this button very fastly. As soon as a photo posted, maybe even before shown in new images list. Why that hurry?

Even I got two of the same post to vote. Obviously first post immediately nominated. But image was deleted. Again as fast as first case newly posted image was also nominated. How could this be possible?

Are there someone waiting for someone to post to something?

What can we do for this cases? I have a tendency to reject that kind of nominations. Or to wait until this image gets CI.

Theradman:" I would LOVE a place to optionally provide a comment or a reason why I vote the way I do." There is somewhere you can leave a comment - on the photo's comments, just as normal. No need to state your comment is related to voting, simply give a normal, balanced critique, what you think is good, what isn't, and why, and suggestions about possible alternative approaches. The artists gets the input regardless of the perm gall outcome and anyone who comes along also voting on that image after you gets to consider the things you've seen in the image. If every person who voted on images nominated for the Perm Gall did this, then the gestalt of reasons it ends up in the PG or not, would be right there in the words under the image.
mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Is there any way to make it mandatory for someone voting on a nominated image to make a comment on the photo? Just a thought. If someone votes yes or no, which the mods will know, and that vote can be measured against what the voter SAYS about the image and what the Mods consider is true about the image, that might make the process of weighing "fair and consistent" voting patterns a bit more straight forward.

Ok, this is just plain nuts. I got an image that had, at the time of my CAC vote request, been uploaded a scant 20 minutes prior, and had 1 view, and 1 download. The image wasn't "perm" quality, but was indeed aesthetically pleasant, even with it's flaws and drawbacks.

I voted no, on principle. I probably would've voted no anyway, but this FedEx process to the perm gallery was just too much. If, as I wonder, the poster him/herself nominated the image, that would be just sad.

As for commenting on one's CAC vote, great idea. However, when, on multiple occasions, the suggestion was made for people to elaborate on or explain their VB vote it was met with a fair amount of dissent. It would seem that dirty work is best done with the lights off.

I may be dumb but if I see an image thats stands out (in my eyes) as perm material, if I have an allocated nomination, I nominate it there and then. Coming back 2 hours 2 days or two weeks later would make no difference to my opinion of it.
This is not knee jerk reaction, not favouring 'friends' - just nomination of an image that stands out.
(Yes I do browse though 'old' images as well as New Images.)
How long are we expected to wait before pressing the button??

Voting 'no' on the basis that an image was nominated quickly ?
How fair and unbiased is that?
What principle is involved here ?
Images should be voted on their value and suitability, not the time it takes for someone else to nominate it.

Lyn, you have this tendency to appear to miss key elements of what was said.

"I probably would've voted no anyway, but this FedEx process to the perm gallery was just too much."

And know what? A while back, there was a glitch that allowed people to perm (not nominate) their own images, simply by switching galleries. When I pointed this out to a mod, I was told anyone doing that... would have the image archived immediately. They didn't say anything about making exceptions if the image probably should be permed anyway.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm following that precedent, and policy.

Deleted because I misunderstood what was said and my comments were irrelevant

Ditto above

Maybe this isn't the place to mention this, but when voting on images for the Art Council I'm able to see what category the image is entered into. I've often thought that it would be great to be able to see the category when voting on images in the VB if that can be done somehow without revealing the person. Sometimes it would make a difference in how I would vote if I know more about what the person was intending in the shot.

I pushed the Art Council button today on a photo I found truly impressive...Later I looked at the same photo and it no longer had a Art Council button. One of my pictures had a Art Council button early today now it is gone. Can you please explain why this happens

Thanks

The Art Council buttons will only appear on images that have not been nominated to the AC and only if you are able to nominate images currently. There is a limit of how many images you can nominate per week.

I like the art council idea. But, 10s only as keepers? I don't know. I'm not sure I've ever given over 1 of those. Do most of you agree that whatever the AC votes on as a keeper should be a 10. I don't know if I've ever taken a photograph that even I considered a 10.

I agree with Wheedance that knowing the category intended may make a difference in voting for images in the VB.