Please post any comment here that you think is harsh or unwarranted, and I will be happy to give my opinion of the comment and whether it falls within the guidelines of the CoC.

Please note this section of the CoC in considering the comment:

1d "Critiques of people's work should be constructive and if possible informative and supportive. If you don't like something, say so and then tell how it could be improved."

"It is not suggested that the comments be sugary-sweet. However, if you think you have something useful to say that will help the artist see it too, then you can do it with diplomacy, which is what is sometimes lacking in the seeming advice given by those whose credentials we are unfamiliar with because they have no work of their own to view."

You can say that, but it doesn't make it true. Since I have plenty of my works to view and I am the one that made the blunt comment that some of you are so upset about.

Piner, you are not the only to one to make a blunt comment, I will not add the other mod's name unless asked to do so, but I saw some of the half wit comments he made, very unmod like. I cannont remember exactly what the wording was, but it was something like scooby do or ? It was pure nonsense.

Okay, you have a nice gallery, Tom. The last time you posted was over a year ago. Yours is not the only comment that we are upset about, I assure you. And you have a much bigger gallery than most mods at 4 pages, so there is indeed some of your work available for example. What is at issue is the fact that one of our favorite, in fact, one of the best artists on site, was turned away by a mod's childish PMs and comments about his work that was unwarranted and not true. I know the image in question and I know the way in which the situation was handled. How many more good artists have to be pushed out by careless, thoughtless comments, critiques and remarks?

Another question is - how many artists willing to give critical commentary - many of whom were also very good, have to be pushed out by those unwilling to learn to handle critical commentary *even when it appears to be childish, or harsh, to them*?

Because that has also happened, a whole lot.

Again, I am saddened by any member's choice to leave, but it is their choice.

Once more.. to underscore Cat's words above:

*caedes - 10/11/06 20:27

"In the end, people define their personal line between acceptable critique and person attack according to their cultural norms. In order for a multicultural space like caedes.net to function, all members must be willing to adapt to the common culture of the new space. We have defined the caedes.net culture through our Code of Conduct and through other means (such as the guidelines for a good critique). Knowing this culture, it is then the person's responsibility to either work within it or to not participate."


And for the record, I, too.. am not happy about Michel's recent decision to leave the site.

And hope, that given some time.. perhaps a different perspective might be arrived at by him.

Simply put, and again once more.. this:

"How to receive a critique:

Critiques are opinions and nothing more. They are reflections of the people giving them. You should never argue or complain about a critique. You will either agree with it or you won't. When you post a photo to a public forum for critique, you must be prepared to hear the worst-case scenarios as well as the educated critiques. If you are sensitive about your photos, posting them online is not a good idea. Don't expect everyone to share your sentiments about any given photo. Photography is supposed to be fun. Don't let negative critiques change your own opinion of your work. Have a good time."

Why don't we ask the person who offended Michel to offer up an apology. He can still give his criticism but perhaps a little differently. Maybe you, as moderators, should develop a little plan where you are united in anti meanness and sarcasm. It would be nice if we the members could count on you to reprimand those who behave poorly. I think that everyone would be happy if kindness were a part of the big picture.

So, where IS Geri?

We are still skirting the issue I feel, honest comments are appreciated but can be handled with more respect, he simply did not deserve such jibbersh, and I think the mod or mods in question need to make a full aploogy, and be given some time out from their duties.

Jen, I would have to see the comment and agree that it was mean and/or sarcastic in order to support that.

Until then, I think it entirely possible that the words were possible to receive or be viewed harshly, without any intention on the mod's part to be mean, and I can't support asking a mod to apologize for what may be oversensitivity on the part of an artist. If the comment is posted above, I'll address it later tonite, when I get home.

I would also like to note that in the one case that I know of where a mod has been leaving "jibberish" comments, that mod has done so by erasing a previous detailed critique after receiving pm's to shut up because they didn't know what they were doing and nobody else had a problem with the image. I would prefer that the comment not be erased in that situation, but I can understand the lack of desire to keep dealing with the flashback as well.

So - some of the "jibberish" you are seeing may well be that situation.

Then Cat, it was probably best to leave well enough alone, and the case of the artist in question, I really do not think he would come back at someone like that, maybe someone in his friends list, or perhaps you mean someone else entirely.

I would like you to know that this thread is not about me and the hawk. That was settled amicably. jen

Sandi, we may be talking about 2 different situations. I will say that I have been stunned at what some people are willing to say in pm's that they would never say publicly.

Regardless, I don't think that I can continue until I evaluate the initial comments that were left in this thread and decide whether I agree that they were unwarranted, or unacceptable. When I do, I'll be able to speak more specifically to any of these issues.

Understood Cat, It was brought to your attention, and you have replied promptly.

Jen - good to know that was settled amicably. I will address it later, only because it seems that is what *some* of this thread is about (including my initial intention in starting it).

Constructive criticism is a very large part of what this site is supposed to be about. If people are so sensitive that they are unable to accept any sort of criticism then they should not be posting their images here.

I have seen many people complain loudly and bitterly about criticisms of their work that would not upset me in any way if they were directed at me. I can see no reason to get upset when it is clear that the comment was not intended to be "hurtful" or a personal attack on myself... perhaps I have simply been around long enough to develop a thicker skin, but really, if you are going to throw a tantrum, threaten to leave the site etc because of one critical comment, you need to grow up.

Samatar, the person in question, had it happen more than once, and by the same mod? It seemed to be a personnal attack, on someone that truly did not deserve it, as most of his work far excedes the norm on this site. I don't call it a tantrum, and the mods I think need to grow up, and show respect as we all should. They are the ones in this situation not being grown up.

"Constructive criticism is a very large part of what this site is supposed to be about. If people are so sensitive that they are unable to accept any sort of criticism then they should not be posting their images here." The problem here is you say that we have to accept ANY form of criticism. How about directing the populace to leave "constructive ideas for bettering an image" rather than insulting criticisms. What does that have to do with growing up?

I do not understand why we even have these threads, it seems so much of the time, we just continue to hash things out, and go round and around. Why not offer an apology and get on with it, and strive to be polite to one another - there is no reason to be so mean and harsh - we all deserve much more than that. Let us try act like adults, give our advice and show respect, why do we keep getting comments in this thread that skirt around the issue of why we should be shown respect, it is not good for the site at all. Hurt feelings or not just be nice about your advice, and don't use stupid comments like abba dabba do! Be nice!!

From the Code of Conduct:

"All comments should be mature and courteous".

Simple and succinct.

What I keep hearing from the mods though is that we can't take criticism. That is simply not so. Maybe there are a few exceptions, but if the criticism is shown to be 'mature' and 'courteous', then you are correct that we should have developed an ability to accept the observations of others. Doesn't mean however that we are required to agree with them.

Cat stated: "- how many artists willing to give critical commentary - many of whom were also very good, have to be pushed out by those unwilling to learn to handle critical commentary *even when it appears to be childish, or harsh, to them*"?

Cat, you seem to miss the point, which is that we "shouldn't have to accept" 'childish' or 'harsh' criticism because it is neither 'mature', nor 'courteous'.

If we are to abide by the CoC, then that kind of comment (childish or harsh), even when it comes from a mod should be addressed and dealt with appropriately either by Caedes or the other mods because it directly goes against the ethics of the code. That is why the COMPLAIN button is available to us.

1) Some of it is harsh or childish in *your opinion* which not necessarily everyone shares (even if some do). That is why I will review the above.

2) I've been on the phone with a friend in need and she's calling back in a few, I haven't forgotten about here, and I'll get here as soon as I can.

Well, once it was reported as a complaint, then you could investigate if it was childish or harsh. You already have Piner's comment above and several observations that it was harsh. I'd give you the comment that was childish, but it's not mine to give, but I agree with the others that it was indeed childish.

"An image that has been ruined by heavy-handed manipulation. The darkening of the water was poorly done, the change between water and the shore can obviously be seen. Using a polarized filter (correctly adjusted) on the camera would have eliminated the need for having to use editing software. The filter would have also made the trees greener by eliminating the glare on the leaves."

I've seen the linked image, and the flaw, and this is my opinion:

Yes, this could have been phrased more delicately, however, I understand the person's desire not to. In this instance, the image is from a long-standing member, and I would expect that member to think better than to post an image with an obvious editing demarcation line. The fact that not only was it there, but that people were commenting while skipping right over it - this is the kind of thing that will have you on American Idol saying "But everybody thinks I'm awesome!" when the judges pass you over. It can reasonably be assumed that the member isn't hearing the more delicate version after this length of time, and that the blunt version is necessary to make it clear.

While blunt, it is mature and courteous. It does not say that the image sucks, or that the artist sucks. It is not an obvious attempt to be mean rather than honest (or mean in being honest). It says factually that the image has been ruined by such a demarcation line (definitely a heavy handed manipulation) and then goes on to give advice about how to fix it.

There was some discussion further that the artist couldn't get the shot right under the circumstances and had to edit in order to fix it, and whether the shot should have been taken then. I stand firmly behind if you can't get the shot that you want, you need to be able to make your edits seemless, such that the viewer cannot even tell that they have been made. If you can't do that, it doesn't matter how much you wanted the shot, or how it looked in your head, the shot isn't a shot, because you couldn't get it.

This comment may be hard to hear, but it falls entirely within the CoC.

On another note, in a few weeks, I can create a tutorial on creating masks and adjusting them to make your edits invisible if anyone is interested in that.

"had i not seen other stuff you have posted i would say thumbs up but have to say this new direction needs some work."

I agree that this could be more specific as to what work the new direction needs, but again, this falls within the bounds of the CoC. It is not insulting to the image or the artist personally, and it *does* give feedback - the direction you are moving in right now is not working well. I would even take it to mean that they viewed the previous incarnation, and think that the previous was better, and this was the wrong way to go. It is mature and courteous and even goes so far as to say that their initial reaction was a positive one.

Oh, I hear you all right, even what isn't put to text. Quite simply you mods are going to stick together no matter what. Piner knows he should have chosen his words more delicately. Desire does not excuse what was written. Is suck the only word that will suffice the redaction of a critique? Is this all just an exercise in semantics? If I got Piner's comment on any image of mine, I sure wouldn't respect what he had to say after the first sentence because I would feel as if a bull had entered the china shop and give no credence to his futher comment. If I had received the ridiculous comments and PMs that Mich received, I would have removed my entire gallery too, had I the "courage" to do so. Contrary to what Mich did in defense of his dignity, I take much of what mods say with a grain of salt because their behavior does not conform to the role and example that a mod should set.

"So, a crop.. more or less ... of this previous incarnation:

http://www.caedes.net/Zephir.cgi?lib=Caedes::Infopage&image=cynlee-1223359539.jpg"

I have to be honest - I would have gone looking for the original as well, because I would be curious to see what the change was. Sometimes people get sidetracked. Is it exactly on point in terms of what was requested as feedback? No. But geez, have you ever seen anything around here stay exactly on point?

And - it was a legitimate question in my opinion, if the linked image is the correct one, because I cannot see with any great clarity, any difference between the 2 images beyond the cropping. I even downloaded them and compared them side by side to be sure.

The question isn't an insult, it's a request for information. In what I would consider to be a laidback tone of voice.

It falls within the CoC in my opinion.

Didn't say those weren't within the CoC. I said they made no sense and were therefore questionable. What was the point? If you have a question, ask it! Don't beat about the bush.

The blunt, harsh and childish business relates to Piner's and another mods comments.

I have given my opinion, it is anyone's choice to ignore it, just as much as it may be their choice to ignore a comment left on an image that they do not agree with.

If anyone has a problem with what I have said, again, I invite them to discuss it with *caedes.

So far, the comments posted in this thread do not rise to the level of insult, or excessively harsh as far as I am concerned, even though some of them *could* have been phrased more delicately. That sort of delicate phrasing is not a requirement, as per several quotes by caedes pulled above. Yes, I will defend that. I am sorry if this bothers people, but it is how I see the situation.

Fine. Ignored then, just as ours are.

I have indicated how the comments listed made sense to me.

I would love a tutorial on masks. AMEN.

np Jen, I have a week off @ Xmas, and I'll work on it then. Expect to see it during that last week of the year, and feel free to remind me at the beginning of the week. 8•)

I don't think it is easy finding a middle ground on subjects such as the ones brought up in this discussion. Things are not always ... and simply ... black and white. Lots of grey exists in all aspects and facets of life, as well as, on the site here.


I do think, though.. that some appreciation for the efforts made and time expended.. could be at least be acknowledged.

Even if you 'disagree' with what has been written.


And same said efforts and time expended should be taken as an acknowledgement of the concerns/issues. Not as dismissive attempts, nor that of trying to dissuade an open discussion and exchange.

It seems to me that just about everyone who is taking part in this discussion is perfectly willing to be "blunt" when they disagree with someone elses opinion. Not too much concern about hurting other peoples feelings here as far as I can see!

So why does one "rule" apply when it comes to images but another when addressing a person?

A suggestion: If you don't want critical comments on your images, perhaps you should say so in your image description. Or maybe you could specify that you only want your friends to comment.

One thing that particularly irks me is people who say they want critical feedback on their image, and then get upset when they don't agree with it. If you can't accept/don't need criticism why ask for it?

Not to be redundant but can't we just say that when leaving a comment or critique do it politely.

Les, your last phrase is not a complete sentence and so makes not much sense.

You can be sure that the members on this thread are making efforts and spending time to explain the simple truth that we will not be badgered and would like the respect that being a member warrants. We too want to be appreciated for the time and effort we contribute to the site.

Some of us spend as much time here as you do and sometimes more. (You do manage to take your 3-4 week vacations periodically). So, it works both ways. You see our side and why we are being defensive and we'll try to see it from yours, but saying that you spend a lot of time defusing situations such as this or not admitting that 'maybe', just 'maybe' a mod was wrong and should apologize is not a lot to expect.

You are always reminding us of the 'rules' and I think that one should practice what they preach.

Your efforts and those of the other mods would be more recognized and appreciated if these 'issues' were addressed when they happen and not afterwards. You were contacted and had a chance to make things right with Mich, but you declined to do so and did quite the opposite. Instead of making people feel welcomed, they are driven away.

If you want to consider this blunt, Sam, you may. I didn't title this thread. I consider what members have said here informative and forthright.
Will you all take umbrage or acknowledge that yes, in fact, sometimes the mods are wrong?

Jeenie: The problem with that idea is that "being polite" is a subjective term. What one person might consider polite another might consider schmaltzy. Some people would consider criticism of any kind, no matter how it was worded, to be an insult. Therefore they would complain that anything that wasn't praise to be "rude" and therefore in violation of "being polite".

There have been many comments on the discussion boards that could very easily be considered not polite. But if every one of these comments was banned there would be hardly anything left...

"You were contacted and had a chance to make things right with Mich, but you declined to do so and did quite the opposite."

I do not appreciate you posting lies about me.


And I am quite aware that you are baiting in your post above. Or, trying to.. but, that will not work anymore.

Libelous statements are another matter.


For the benefit of the community and membership ... from this point forward I do not have anything more to say to you. Not in this discussion, nor in the future.

As I believe it is only a matter of time before you are asked to leave.

I have a question.... Why can't members put in as much effort in giving honest critiques of images as they do complaining about imagined affronts?

It would be a more constructive use of time and energies. If people can't give (and take) an honest and forward assesment of an image's strengths and shortcomings, then they are on the wrong site.

If someone wants a place where every comment on their images is sweet or complimenting, then I suggest they start their own website, because it is not going to happen here.

From what I see here this is a hash, and rehash like I stated above. Not getting us anywhere, but making people more upset. Mods stick together, kind of like when a doctor makes the wrong call, they stick together as well. I'm truly sad that is not getting resolved. I wish Mich has kept those images, and pm's so he could share them with cat. I have no idea if Les of Gerri ever pm'd him back, and if so what was said. I do know that we have lost a most talented man that knew how to handle his equipment, and was not treated in a professional manner like he deserved. I did see some of those comments, and some were just plain stupid jibberish, that made no sense!

Jeenie - Sam's comment @ 5:36. This is what I have been trying to say - it is not enough to say "Be polite" because there are different definitions of polite, and therefore I say to everyone - give people the benefit of the doubt on the phrasing, and learn how not to take comments so personally. I know it feels personal when it's something that you've poured your heart and soul into, but it's not, and that's why I wanted to view the comments and explain my P.O.V. of them.

I get professionally critiqued all the time, and I have to let go, all the time. Polite is different things to different people. We can't make everyone follow one definition. If there is anything that I feel is genuinely insulting, I am more than willing to say so, have in the past, and will be in the future. In the meantime, I have in the past and will in the future, be willing to defend anyone - member or mod, who made the comments that were placed in this thread for consideration, as acceptable. Not necessarily optimal, but acceptable. I hope that makes sense.

Cat, I do like the idea of a tutorial on masks. that would be a great! I do acknowledge the time spent on this thread to some point, not only by mods, but for the members taking part, even though we are not getting anywhere. I guess Mich is the only one that could share what was said, and removed them, as he was insulted, and hurt. I wish I had thought to ask him to save them as proof when he first shared them with me.

I certainly hope we are not loosing another member from the statement above. This is one reason I try to stay away from these discussions, they get heated, and taken out of context. But this time, I had to make an effort as I wanted to show my respect for a good, and talented member. Oh well!

Sandi - can I ask you a question? Is it not possible that the mods appear to be "sticking together" because maybe what the mods are saying is what is right? And that the issue lies not on the mod side?

I'm not talking about Mich, because I didn't see those comments, and without them I can't do anything or support anything one way or the other.

But as for the rest of it? Honestly, I'm offended that the mods upholding site policy is being seen as the mods "sticking together". We've seen far more than anyone else here of other complaints and what we have been told is acceptable. We didn't pull it out of our rear. Interpretations of "polite" and "acceptable" differ, because people come at things from different angles. I (we) are using a definition that has previously been established, and as part of site policy, it is our job to explain it, and enforce its use.

Why is this our job to change site policy (or the interpretation that we have been given to understand) because *some* people are upset about it, rather than their job to adjust their comfort level? Because not everyone on this site is upset about that level.

I won't force anyone to leave such comments if they don't feel comfortable doing so, that's their choice, and I won't argue with it. Not my job.

I will say @ Sherree above - I hear where you are coming from - I would also pm a totally rip-apart dissection of an image. But I think there is a middle ground, where *some* flaws are mentioned, which is useful to be posted publicly, as it helps both the artist, and those who view it after the comment - either in developing their own ability to see such things, or how to say them (or how not to say them if they don't like how it's been said). I think that only leaving the good side out in public is a detriment to the community as a whole.

*sigh* Sandi, I didn't see your last 2 comments before I posted. I'm leaving it there, but please understand that I wrote it before I saw your last 2 comments, because I was writing while you posted them and didn't have the screen available. I forget sometimes that refreshing before posting is a good idea.

No hard feelings, and I'll try to remember to pm both you and Jen when the tutorial is up. (No promises, I uh... am occasionally a ditz.)

Cat, I guess the only thing I can do is refrain from further comments, which I might find hard to do. I do know what your saying about how each of us takes the comments given, we are only human, and each of us are so different. I guess nothing can be done about what happened to Mich, since there is no proof. I can only hope that it has set some sort of example for further comments given. If it happens again to me or a friend I will save those comments, and or pm's in the hope it sheds some light. Or at least make sure I ask them to save them for any further action that might be taken.

I will try to remember to remind you cat about the masks! But I get senior moments.

Sandi - sounds like a good plan in saving, and I am always willing to explain how I see any given comment, so please feel free to post it here if you'd like. We may not always agree on the different interpretations, but if having a different view helps in those cases, that is what I would like to accomplish here, and why I established this thread.

In my above comments I have been speaking mainly about what happened to Mich, and not others as a whole. We are here to share, learn and help each other. I truly appreciate that fact, and I feel I have learned so much, but have much more to learn. So many of us have come along ways, and I hope the journey only continues.

cynlee weve talked since i posted this

"had i not seen other stuff you have posted i would say thumbs up but have to say this new direction needs some work"

you didnt have a problem with it till now.i guess my question is why?

the main gallery is the top gallery here at caedes,as the top gallery here at caedes images in are going to be looked at more closly and critic more harshly then beginners.that being said my advice is if you dont want your image to judged by people who view it then quit using the AC as a tool to push an images to the top.

"if you dont want your image to judged by people who view it then quit using the AC to push an image to the top just so it will be in the mains."

I don't know why you presume that images are promoted to the Main Gallery just for the sake of being there, Mike. As if being in Caedes Main Gallery were some sort of gold ring or prize. Sure it's good to know that your work is thought good enough to be promoted, but Geri said to have fun making art. Why all the antagonism from the mods?

I really would like to know where Geri comes down in all of this and I really would like to know what happened to him.

I don't understand the comment of using the AC tool to push your images to the top, that is decided upon by other members. I would also like to know what Geri's thoughts are as well.

im not saying that is a gold ring what i am saying is if you are better than average then people are going to more critcal of your work.for instance some of the stuff you post i really like some not so much,i like more than i dislike.if i see something i dislike im going to tell the person i dislike.i expect no less when i post something.
up till this point .

That is well said, but it's how it is said that really matters.

I said I was going to be finished with this, but I should have known better, I know how I am. :)

I agree this comment "that being said my advice is if you dont want your image to judged by people who view it then quit using the AC as a tool to push an images to the top." doesn't make sense.

I give tbob the benefit of the doubt that what he was trying to say didn't come out right, and hope that he'll clear it up.

Sandi - c'mon in the water's fine. LOL.

point is you dont have to have your images in the AC pool.so if you dont want to have images judged as better then the rest then dont have them voted on and placed in mains.were peole are going to be more critical of them.the whole point of AC is a tool to vote images into mains right?

Except that as far as I know, there's no way to prevent your images from being nominated for the AC short of not uploading them to the site at all.

Do you know of a way that I'm missing?

yea tell people not to nominate them.

LOL. Now I know you're yanking my chain.

That's like the signs in a public bathroom "Please wash hands" - most people will do it, but not everyone!

Hmmmmm? I won't comment any further on the recent comments, seems to not to make such sense to me. But I'll take a dip just the same.

I have my foot in the water, as it's cold-I think we are starting to make fun of something that is more serious than it is being taken right now. It seems the threads become that way, I have noticed that in the past, maybe we are trying to get away from the hurtful things already said?

Maybe this year things will be different.

Let the tide recede, the water seems to be lukewarm. Lots of time by all us was put into this. I just hope a good friend will return, I really think that words can be misunderstood so easily, since we all come from all walks of life.

From me reading through this seems you have a problem with the Mods commenting.. let me tell you .. it's NOT just the mods there are other members here who can be quite nasty in comments (and that isn't constructive criticism).. I personally have left "suggestions" on what can be done to improve the image most of the time it's been accepted well but bloody hell have I had some really really nasty PM's from artists telling me that their work is perfect and I need to get a life.. lol.. I think most of the time the artist gets upset because they have put a lot of work into their images and they "think" that they are perfect in their eyes.. however in others not so.. Thing is we have a multicultural community here therefore some of it could be communication and translation problems.. some countries do speak bluntly which can be seen as an attack on the person or work..

I also think that we are all adults here and should start acting like one instead of some spoiled brat who has been told they can't have what they want..
All this arguing and pointing the fingers at people is not going to solve whatever it is you actually want.. sometimes it sounds like a lynch mob wanting to hang all the mods for making a comment that they don't want to hear..
And I pretty sure it's not compulsory for mods to upload images, seems to me they are pretty busy trying to answer the questions, settle all the bitching, not bust the happy/ignorant bubble, as well as have a REAL life.. but then I guess some don't (no i'm not saying anyone in particular so don't take it as that thankyou)..

This is a site where you can grow as an artist.. if someone said to me they didn't like this or that (yes bluntly) I would really take a good look at the image to find out what they were talking about (i've had this done to me) and yes after it was pointed out in black & white.. they were right..

My advice.. stop wasting so much time arguing amongst yourselves and put all that energy into amazing work.. life is too short..

Personally, I think this is all Roger's ("palral") fault. That guy is a trouble maker and a busy body. His critiques are pointless and offensive. Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking with it.

Dorothy

Dorothy...

Just stay out of this. Nobody wants to hear your opinion, you silly twit.

Roger