Caedes

C-index Sabbaticle

Submitted by caedes 09/04/05 12:25 AM GMT

I've removed all printing of the c-index and image ratings number until further notice. I think that people have become too enamored by this little number and it is failing to serve its intended purpose. For now, the ratings on images will be used only by the moderators in finding images to add to the permanent galleries. I think that we need to concentrate the focus on putting constructive comments where they need to go instead.

Comments

Post a Comment  -  Subscribe to this discussion

Overflow mode, hiding 13 messages. [View]

Crusader
09/04/05 7:49 AM GMT
I think this is a great idea Caedes. I've made my views clear on this subject multiple times... people are just reading far too much into the C-index. I don't know what the future will hold, but I'm sure that after not having the C-index for a while people will definitely look at it in a different light.
0∈ [?]
::Radjehuty
09/04/05 7:59 AM GMT
removing the C-Index just allows me to view the success of my images in another way. Before, I would only pay attention to C-Indexes, but now I can see the comments and view/download ratios which is probably more important.
0∈ [?]
"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
Lithfo
09/04/05 8:15 AM GMT
The reason I put images on here is to know when people think they're good or not. If something is poorly received, then I know that's probably not good photography. Since most people don't comment, ratings and c-index are what I look forward to seeing. I really have no reason to be here if I can't know what people think of my photography.
0∈ [?]
If a picture is good enough for you to click on, it's good enough for you to vote on.
::PrettyFae
09/04/05 9:08 AM GMT
Hmmm, I can see why this has been done: arguements were getting pathetically out of hand considering peoples' C-indexes, but how are we supposed to know where our images stand now? Not all people are totally honest in their comments so it'll be pretty hard to tell at times.....
0∈ [?]
Drakala
09/04/05 9:31 AM GMT
I disagree with photoimagery's point about people having to post images as some people like myself simply don't have the software/programs to do it and other people like myself have hardly any artisitc talent and just want to see the works of people who do
0∈ [?]
KEIFER
09/04/05 9:40 AM GMT
well .. at DeviantART (for example) .. there is only one form of vote .. FAVORITE .. there is no down vote just an up vote. And Caedes.net already has a favorites system (although I, for one, never think of it) .. I always considered it a secondary vote .. but it COULD replace the c-index as a standard vote
0∈ [?]
---Fear is the mind-killer---
::philcUK
09/04/05 9:53 AM GMT
Even though it's quite a sweeping change - I think it's a good move as it shifts the focus back to the work and away from the obsession people have with scores and leagues. You still have the opportunity to comment positively or otherwise on an image and vote for it. Keith also raised a very valid point about the often overlooked favourites option. I don’t personally have a problem with members who do not submit work so long as they contribute in other ways - either by being proactive in commenting on work or by supporting the site through Cadre membership.
0∈ [?]
"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
::PrettyFae
09/04/05 9:56 AM GMT
I see Michael's (+photoimagery) point, but for some people - like my brother (his work is never kept on this site for long, bless) who is two years younger than me - they are not actually very talented artists but put 100% effort into their work. It may look rubbish to one person, but to another it could look stunning...so considering peoples' ages and abilities, how do you define exactly what a good quality image shoulod look like? And plus...no one's work is going to get better unless they are able to upload it in order to receive tips on how to improve or develope their work...for example, I joined less than a year ago, and thanks to the helpful people here at Caedes, it's pretty obvious how my art has developed over time...after all, people can only learn through their experiences...
0∈ [?]
::RobNevin
09/04/05 11:13 AM GMT
To consider regarding voting:

7. It's fast feedback. Everyone has other things to do in their lives and it's a quick communication.
8. It's language neutral. Not everyone on the site is English speaking.
9. It's an expression of an opinion from people who are either disinclined to write a comment. This can be because they can't type worth a pinch or have no writing skills or see themselves as unworthy to comment in the shadow of some highly skilled opinion-writer/technical-writers.

Note in the above, the avoidance of the numbering systems starting at 1. *wink*

Key issues:
Too few voters.
Votes are immediate feedback to posters providing encouragement to post again.

PhilUK's comment "I don’t personally have a problem with members who do not submit work so long as they contribute in other ways - either by being proactive in commenting on work or by supporting the site through Cadre membership. " I agree.

So .. on to my votes on the above statements:
..PhotoImagery - 8
..Crusader - 5
..Radjehuty - 5
..Lithfo - 9
..PerttyFae - 9
..PhilUK-9
..Keifer - 9
..Drakala - 7


Rob



0∈ [?]
You're invited to tour my gallery ••• º¹º¹ºº¹¹º¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ººº
Raziel252
09/04/05 11:31 AM GMT
A very descisive move. I have no problems with it. Hmm, been a long time since there was such a rash descision.

Bravo Caedes.
0∈ [?]
"I fall asleep with my friends around me, its the only place I know that I feel safe. I'm gona cal this home."
::RobNevin
09/04/05 11:48 AM GMT
How 'bout we trash the voting system.

Then, add a simple button to indicate that you liked the image. If you don't click it, it doesn't matter. If you do, you're telling the poster that you liked their image. Display the number of times that people clicked the button.

The degree to which to liked the image, or the reason that you didn't click it can be described in comments.

Done.
0∈ [?]
You're invited to tour my gallery ••• º¹º¹ºº¹¹º¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ººº
scionlord
09/04/05 11:58 AM GMT
actually I like that idea from Rob....1 button with 'like?' on it. Simple and to the point.
0∈ [?]
'Study the past, if you would divine the future.' - Confucius ................. Please look at these: Swirly Thing, Aircraft version 3
Gothic
09/04/05 11:58 AM GMT
I support this as long as mods are doing good job with choosing photos for permanent gallery :) But i believe they will!
0∈ [?]
::THE MORE U DOWNLOAD, THE MORE U SHARE::
pixelpusher
09/04/05 12:41 AM GMT
I don't like it! It's not like I hung the quality of an image on the C-index at all, because art is so subjective...but it was a quick way to kinda see how the image was doing within he community. No big deal, but I miss it.
0∈ [?]
Art washes away from the soul the dust of life....Picasso
::CaptainHero
09/04/05 12:44 AM GMT
I have posted in the past about my concern over zero votes. Notwithstanding that, and as per the discussion in the chatroom, I agree with suspending the ability to view c-indexes and vote distribution. It's causing too much division. Those children who wish to still cast zero votes can still do so, but the artist will not know, thus robbing the miscreants of the satisfaction of having wounded someone.

Some of the comments above seem to be almost saying that you can't vote any more. You can still vote, it's just that only certain people will be able to see the result.
0∈ [?]
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
::Torque
09/04/05 3:40 PM GMT
Another quick solution to the outrageous voters (both too high and too low) is to use some sort of bell curve weighting for the voting average, whereby the top "so many" percent of votes and bottom "so many" percent of votes of each image are not counted in the average. Combine that with not showing anyone the average (except maybe the poster, which I would suggest to appease many who like the benchmark) and you should see a drastic reduction in the effects of and complaints about unfair voting. Just by not showing the average to anyone but the poster you have already eliminated the problem of (non-malicious) members voting an image higher or lower than they normally would to compensate for what they perceive to be an inaccurate rating. Everyone should simply vote their own opinion of the image.

Another possibility in addition to the above would be to make the rating visible to every member after he/she has already voted on the image. I really like this because it does more to encourage voting than any reasonable requirement I can think of. I don't think the folks who would make a compensatory vote like I mentioned just before are the type to create multiple user accounts so this doesn't figure to be much of an issue, provided that it is combined with the bell-curve rating idea aimed at predatory (or otherwise outrageous) voting. Did I mention I'm afraid that not showing the rating to anyone will discourage what little voting there is?


Any thoughts?
0∈ [?]
~My select image - Wading Patiently
MorpheusZero
09/04/05 4:12 PM GMT
Could someone please tell me what exactly this has solved? People will still low vote if they know it will eventually effect the image's chance of getting into the permanent galleries. Caving in to the people who low vote by doing away with the voting system has only given them power by letting them know their malicious voting has made a significant difference. Seriously, if people don't want to know what their own c-indexes are, just don't pay attention to them. Even if you can't help looking at them for whatever reason, and if you don't care about c-indexes like you say you do, then why are you still affected by it? If people low vote your image, your image's c-index will suffer, whether or not you can see it. If this is really a problem to some people, maybe you could make an option to make c-indexes visible/invisible in the Caedes Control. I think this would please pretty much everybody.
0∈ [?]
::verenabloo
09/04/05 4:21 PM GMT
Now we are finally "free spirits" to comment as we wish with NO hassle of figuring out a voting number! We are all artists, so there really is no need for the C Index...but appreciating and commenting is just a great thing. Good decidions Mr Ceades!! Thanx a bunch!
0∈ [?]
To love what you do and feel that it matters---how could anything be more fun??!!
MorpheusZero
09/04/05 4:24 PM GMT
Well, it was possible to comment without voting before.
0∈ [?]
jacked
09/04/05 4:31 PM GMT
WOW! what a shock. Feel like I've been gut punched. hehe. Dwight.
0∈ [?]
See, how she leans her cheek upon her hand! O that I were a glove upon that hand, that I might touch that cheek!" :Shakespeare
::zharazi
09/04/05 4:54 PM GMT
This will probably sound odd in this discussion, but I actually liked the ratings. Granted, I have been upset a time or two at some low-balling, but that's one of the things any artist must learn. You have to be thick skinned about criticism. People are judging the piece of art, not the artist. For me, the voting and the view/download ratio were the only real ways to receive any criticism about my work, and therefore, the only way to see how I can improve. Very few people ever offer any constructive ways to improve an image. To those who do, I take my hat off to you. You're the kind of people I joined this community for.

I'm sure things will work out for the best. I still like the info so I can make the best decision about my work. To those who are bitter complainers about a low rating, welcome to the world of art. If you don't like it, just try expressing your opinion about politics or religion and see how people's opinions differ.

I love this community. It is by far the best desktop artist community out there. Here's to making it even better.

Cheers,

Brian
0∈ [?]
Bravery is the capacity to perform properly, even when scared half to death. - Gen. Omar Nelson Bradley
::tbhockey
09/04/05 5:46 PM GMT
sounds like a good idea to me.
0∈ [?]
-tbhockey
::zokce
09/04/05 5:55 PM GMT
I like your reasoning behind this idea. I think it's a nice change towards better.
All the best and God Bless.
0∈ [?]
::xyccoc
09/04/05 6:22 PM GMT
another possible idea could be something like having all the mods (not to put pressure guys), or at least a percentage of them, vote on an image before it has a visible c index.. something like an approval from the bosses, so to speak ;) that way an image could get its votes from members, but would need the mods votes to become a TNI or permanant gallery inclusion.. could help to balance out the votes..

or do something like the olympics.. toss out a high and low score.. take the medial average of an image..

*shrugs* yet again, this is only my 2 cents :P

Dj
0∈ [?]
And everytime I feel that my lifes a waste.. I just cant rid myself of your bitter taste.. - Me (Option21)
panda1300
09/04/05 6:40 PM GMT
I agree and disagree at the decision. As it has already been said, we should be able to view our own c-index even if other people can't, that way people don't vote high just because everyone else has, it leaves you to your own opinion. But also...I'm not sure if it would be a good idea to show a user's name when they vote, some people who have been here longer and don't have a problem with it is fine.. but some may be offended and if they know the source then people could constantly get messages asking to explain for their vote "why did you give me this vote? why dont you like my image?". Yes it's nice to give an opinion but do you really want people asking you non stop? I'm not sure I would. I'm also not saying this would always happen but it could, you never know. Fae I also agree with you, there are some people who aren't always honest and just like to be nice in their comments..so how DO you know where your images stand? It's hard to find an answer that's right because some people are offended when critisized but some take it in and make their images better, and how can you know what kind of person you're dealing with? You don't, and having the c-index (without knowing who voted) let's people express themselves without worries. And also Fae if you think about it one way yes it's good that your brother is learning, and get's feedback from us here at Caedes, but once the advice is received.. is there a need to keep the image up? I'm not trying to be rude or anything because I like his drawings ^_^ but ultimately.. it IS a "desktop wallpaper" site. Even if I make a drawing and put it on Caedes, get advice, then it's deleted.. I would still get pleasure out of seeing my artwork on my own desktop, not everyone has to like it.. you know? But for those who like competition, Michael(+photoimagery), myself, and probably a lot more, it's nice to see that little c-index there on the side. I like to compete with myself in school with my grades also, as many do.. so when I see that 90, it makes me happy, just as it would in school.
0∈ [?]
If I'm not back in 5 minutes.....just wait longer! - Ace Ventura
reddawg151
09/04/05 8:36 PM GMT
Oh, and another thing, as far as it affecting people's motives and behaviors, I've always found the Author List to be the most divisive.
0∈ [?]
~Bob
mythica
09/04/05 9:20 PM GMT
I agree reddawg - that list can be devisive - how about names only, randomised every time?? (author List)
0∈ [?]
The way to know life is to love many things. .:Van Gogh:. Do you need an Angel?
::philcUK
09/04/05 10:01 PM GMT
how so?
0∈ [?]
"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
reddawg151
09/04/05 10:45 PM GMT
Because it's easy to find oneself putting too much value in your position on the author list, and easy to feel bitter about it. And it puts pressure on people to flood us with every image they have to get more points on that ranking.
0∈ [?]
~Bob
::philcUK
09/04/05 10:58 PM GMT
they only get points on that ranking if they are accepted into the permanent galleries I believe
0∈ [?]
"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
*caedes
09/04/05 11:05 PM GMT
yes
0∈ [?]
-caedes
reddawg151
09/04/05 11:08 PM GMT
but you have to submit images to get the points
0∈ [?]
~Bob
::philcUK
09/04/05 11:13 PM GMT
isnt submitting work for others to share the point of the site?
0∈ [?]
"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
XYZ
09/04/05 11:24 PM GMT
What points?
0∈ [?]
::philcUK
09/04/05 11:33 PM GMT
and if they 'flood' the galleries with substandard stuff that still wont increase their ranking as theoretically they wont go into the perm galleries....
0∈ [?]
"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
forage
09/05/05 12:15 AM GMT
I usually found myself being swayed by the C-index, rating things lower if the C-index wasn't so great. Not a good practice, I know, but it was something I just kind of did subconsciously. I'm glad it's gone.
0∈ [?]
::Radjehuty
09/05/05 12:19 AM GMT
I was actually thinking of something lately that might end this conflict...Maybe you should attain a certain amount of Karma and be on the site long enough to be given the privalege to vote.

It might sound like a bad idea at first, but if you think about it, it would make it WAY too much work for an abuser to create an account, build it up in Karma and make it active for a certain amount of time, just to abuse it.

Maybe Voting should be a privalege we EARN rather than just have. I, like other people, do look forward to seeing a C-Index, but I also know what the problems are, and I try to factor that in.
0∈ [?]
"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
XYZ
09/05/05 12:28 AM GMT
Yea but they can spend most of their time in the discussions instead. Maybe 538 or the Massive thing.
0∈ [?]
Flurije
09/05/05 12:54 AM GMT
Good Lord, this is quite a discussion board. Personally, I think I will side with Photoimagery on this issue, although Radjehuty has an interesting suggestion on how to solve this dilemma. I must say though, that it's great that such a drastic change has provoked such an intelligent and insightful discussion of the problem at hand and the possible ways to solve the issue. :)
0∈ [?]
"Morals, like clothes, change with the fashions, or, perhaps the fashions change to adorn the morals." Florence Reed
::Radjehuty
09/05/05 1:06 AM GMT
Well obviously my suggestion isn't developed but it's based on a pretty simple idea.

People that attack images, are lazy. They only do this because they can do it so easily.

The basic idea is that we should make it a privelage, and JUST hard enough to earn that attackers won't bother trying. Chances are, the attackers have no care for the Caedes.net culture, and won't build themselves up enough to attack us.
0∈ [?]
"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
XYZ
09/05/05 1:17 AM GMT
I think it is a great idea and hopefully it gets into the site.
0∈ [?]
MorpheusZero
09/05/05 1:55 AM GMT
Great idea. I really hope Caedes uses your idea. Along with mine about having an option to see your own c-indexes.
0∈ [?]
KEIFER
09/05/05 2:45 AM GMT
I think Dave's Karma based voting has merits ... but ... don't tell him I said so .. ;)

I think Caedes should say: .. "You know, +Geri was just saying the same thing last night"
0∈ [?]
---Fear is the mind-killer---
onespock
09/05/05 4:53 AM GMT
Hi...First I would like to say that...I am not an artist, as I have no talent. I do not leave as many comments as I would like, as I have no time. I do however enjoy voting on the photos that I like, but also understand how some would feel having their work low-voted just for spite. I think the Karma idea mixed with a "must have an upload" idea would work fantastic. It would do two things, one is keep the Scruffians at bay(nasty people know no Karma) and two is....give the lurkers like me a kick in the buttocks to participate more, to leave more comments, to knock the dust off the camera and give it a try or even try(I don't know how you guys do it) our hand at fractals.
I think I for one would come out of the shadows...because thats where the Scruffians live.

"Live long and prosper"
0∈ [?]
-"The needs of the many,outweigh the needs of the few or the one".-Spock
::Radjehuty
09/05/05 6:07 AM GMT
Well I think that if something like this were ever implemented, the Karma requirment wouldn't be totally out of reach for you.

The whole idea is to try and skim the population that actually want to contribute, from the ones that want to cause trouble, and those that do participate and remain active would be givin Voting privaleges.
0∈ [?]
"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
Trin
09/05/05 6:52 AM GMT
I enjoyed watching the c-index, it gives you a clue about where your images stand. Removing it isn't the solution, we should find alternatives. I think Radjehuty has a great idea here.
0∈ [?]
panoramaster
09/05/05 8:09 AM GMT
Though I see many reasons behind removing the c-index from view, I like so many others cannot understand why the artist cannot see it. I can’t claim that I know the full array of problems associated with the c-index, and like a few of the people who have left comments; I don’t have enough time to figure out how it works. But to deny an artist feedback on their work is to destroy the very reason that they created. Supposedly, this site supports artists in their quests to achieve what they believe is a “work of art”. Through comments and the c-index, an artists was able to gauge how well their artwork was received, and thus, work on producing something that the bulk of the Caedes community would like. If there is no response from people, which disappointingly is the case more often than not, at least the artist could see what the community thought of it through a number, however cold that may be.

No doubt there are losers out there who have nothing better to do or no human decency and leave votes of ones and zeros, but those people are a vast minority. These votes may drag down the artist’s c-index, but hiding the c-index from the artist will not solve the problem. Considering the c-index is, from what I understand, updated/recalculated every 24 hours, the loser who left the vote would not get much satisfaction out of watching the c-index degenerate, unless they came back to that same image (in which case GET A LIFE), they would only do it if it they didn’t like the artist, or had nothing better to do (there is possibly a very small minority of people who actually think the art is legitimately only worth a one or zero, but I would hope that that is an extremely rare occurrence) other than ruin peoples chances of getting their art into the permanent gallery. In these cases, the vote can be standardised – for example, if more than 8 votes have been registered, and one of the votes deviated beyond an accepted range, it can/should be standardised to a more realistic value that reflects the general consensus.

The real irony of Caedes decision to remove the c-index from the artists view is that the artworks final judgement is based on that very number. If an artist is going to have their worked judged by someone they have never met, at least they could know why the decision was made. In my opinion it would be nicer to know that the image wasn’t going to be accepted into the permanent galleries rather than all of a sudden it ceasing to exist.

In my experience (and opinion), the only thing worse than bad feedback, is no feedback at all. There is no greater a regret than never knowing.,,
0∈ [?]
It seems to me that what wears us down the most in life aren't the chances we take, but the chances we dont take, the dreams we put aside, the adventures we push away, the questions that are never answered
ajmitchell
09/05/05 8:19 AM GMT
As a new member last month, I was really intruiged by the feedback system you have (thats voting and comments and favourites)....I have to admit that the combination (but mainly the c-index) led me to post my first image. I also thought the histogram (chart of votes) was excellent. I was intruiged to see the votes and it prompted me to re-work my image to try and improve it. I have not had a problem with inconsiderate comments or votes - in fact just the opposite.

As Radjehuty suggests I think it would be reasonable to allow voting by members with a Karma of more than say 25 (or perhaps by those who have submitted but this is more restrictive) just to stop some crazy voting - however if enough people vote the average should be fairly representative anyway.

In summary, although I agree anyone can be over-sensitive about these numbers; it would be a shame to lose this form of peer feedback and may actually discourage some people (new and old) submitting (ie those that like more detailed feedback)

R

Alex
0∈ [?]
Lithfo
09/05/05 8:54 AM GMT
I use the ratings to figure out if I should change an image or simply scrap the whole idea. I've had plenty of images that I felt wouldn't get high ratings, but I uploaded them anyway to see if anyone else held that opinion. Many a time it turns out they do. Obviously, I figure this out by seeing a low rating. Now if I have an image with a rating of 67, it's going to pretty much stay up there until a mod finally gets around to it, instead of simply deleting it myself.

I have images with 16 votes. Generally when you get that high in the votes, it's safe to assume your image is somewhere in the mid to upper 80s at least. But then I have another image with 26 votes that is only at 79. Now, discarding the ratings, I'd have to assume the image with 26 votes is better according to the caedes community because beside having a lot of votes and downloads, it also has 11 comments. The image with 16 votes and an 86 rating only has three comments. If I didn't already know the ratings I'd assume the 26 vote image was the one people liked more. But because of the ratings, I'm glad to know the 16 vote image was better received.

Don't abandon the orchard because of a few bad apples.
0∈ [?]
If a picture is good enough for you to click on, it's good enough for you to vote on.
kjh000
09/05/05 9:28 AM GMT
I posted this in the "twin thread", thought it was worth posting here maybe (I trunkated some sentences):

"even if I agree that it would seem a good idea to "earn" the privilege of voting or viewing the votes for that matter. I'm not sure this would solve the attacking part really. Just the volume the attacks could be made at (or how to put it). I know this for a fact since I was one of the few lucky ones that got the attention of a few members using multiple IDs, blackballing me with a devastating effect on the c-index. (I am, like you no doubt know, if you have read my earlier remarks in the subject not that attached to it really...) After that stopped I "just" had the regular revenge voting of a steady 0 and 1 on most of my stuff... This I believe was done by members with considerable amounts of karma and galleries of their own".
0∈ [?]
reddawg151
09/05/05 2:21 PM GMT
klas, i've seen the same type thing going on, as well as the reversal where people give their friends 10's on everything. and i while agree that having members at least "earn" the privilege of voting wouldn't completely solve the problem, wouldn't it have prevented people from signing up for multiple IDs to vote with? it may help.
0∈ [?]
~Bob
kjh000
09/05/05 3:14 PM GMT
Yea, that too. And that was what I meant by "volume" above, so I agree fully I guess. :) I didn't express it that eloquently perhaps...
0∈ [?]
::Morwyn
09/05/05 4:02 PM GMT
I actually feel freer to vote.. I don't feel any pressure, that I should vote a certaine way because someone else voted lower or higher that I thought the image deserved.. I like not having a c-index.. Never cared much about it anyway.. I admit is was fun, but it wasn't that important.. Maybe, when it is returned, the idea of making it only accessable to the artist and to the mods is the right thing..
0∈ [?]
One bead at a time..
+ppigeon
09/05/05 4:05 PM GMT
Good point, Ann :-)
0∈ [?]
-pierre-
MythD
09/05/05 4:48 PM GMT
Hi all, sorry I haven't been here for a while-life and all with 5+ kids and school and all, but wow! I do miss the c-index!!! It gave me an idea of how my photo was being viewed! I would like to see in put back in control so that I could see it. I know that focusing on 90+ isn't good all the time, but if you are posting photo's that are only rating an average of 45 or so, then the c-index is a good tool for the photographer to be able to change either the subject or technique or something. So you see, this for me is a great tool. I do read all the comments, but I must admit, sometimes, I only have time to vote and not post a comment. I like the annonymity of the voting sometimes. I think that people will be more honest about a photo when their name isn't attached to the comment! That is just human nature! That and maybe not wanting to hurt any feelings. Would you please put the c-index to a vote as to re-establishing it in some fashion. I feel that would be the fairest thing to do! Thanks for letting me ramble on.........
0∈ [?]
MorpheusZero
09/05/05 5:35 PM GMT
Yes, please make the c-index visible again. Many people miss it, and its helpful attributes far outweigh its negatives.
0∈ [?]
::philcUK
09/05/05 7:02 PM GMT
im not sure the half dozen or so people who have repeatedly complained about missing the C-Index on this thread qualifies as 'many people' sufficiently enough to curtail the trial of living with out it.
0∈ [?]
"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
::Radjehuty
09/05/05 7:16 PM GMT
The decisions made on a particular image are not soely based on that C-Index number. It's just a helpful tool, but other things are put into concideration as well. I've had images in the 90's C-Index range that were deleted.

Concerning the idea about "earning" the voting privalege; I've heard people say that it wouldn't work because people with high Karma's did abuse. Yes this is true, but they already had the high Karma when they decided they wanted to abuse and be pissed off.

The idea here is they they would have to rebuild themselves which would take time (atleast 3 months). That is a very large hiatus for them to hold a grudge. Granted this will not 100% solve it, it is just an approach at a possible solution which is just a little more productive than whining :D
0∈ [?]
"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
::RobNevin
09/05/05 7:37 PM GMT
My vote on subjects:

VOTING - C-INDEX
1. Return (please) the display of Voting/distribution/and ultimately C-index but make it available only to the posters, mods (to assist in determination for placement in permanent galleries) and Caedes (just because he is who he is). The absence of the vote display publicly should reduce the interest of the zero voters (although I'm sure it has more to do with voting against the poster than the post). Personally I like the immediate feedback the Voting/distribution/and ultimately C-index provide and gives me some guideance (along with comments) on the acceptance of the image.

2. Make the Voting/Distribution/C-Index viewable publicly once (if) the image is posted to the permanent galleries.

3. Provide a count on the individuals User Information Page to display the # of times they vote (along with Karma). This will be another 'badge of honor' to encourage people to vote. If more people vote, the problem of the zero voters goes away as one or two zero votes will not affect the average to any degree. If the overall average is low .. then it may well be a crummy image! Goodness knows I've had my share of duds. *wink*

This will, I suggest, cover all the concerns expressed. People who, for whatever reason I can't think of, who don't want to see their stats can simply ignore them.

AUTHOR INDEX = DIVISIVE
As for the author index being divisive .. I just don't see it. As I understand it it is a measure of images in permanent galleries by author. Voting / C-indexes don't make this determination. Flooding the board with images will not improve this position, merely the volume of exceptional images. But .. I've been wrong before.


Rob


0∈ [?]
You're invited to tour my gallery ••• º¹º¹ºº¹¹º¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ººº
::xyccoc
09/05/05 7:44 PM GMT
or just make each persons vote visible.. like in the distribution.. have a list showing who voted, and what they voted.. those voting 0's will be less inclined, i think, if its being shown who they are.. its one thing to do something anonymously.. completely different when everyone can see what youre doing..

Dj
0∈ [?]
And everytime I feel that my lifes a waste.. I just cant rid myself of your bitter taste.. - Me (Option21)
Lithfo
09/05/05 7:46 PM GMT
"I like the annonymity of the voting sometimes."

Maybe that's the problem. Just make it so it isn't anonymous, at least to the moderators. If they see an image with an unusually low rating or someone issues a complaint they can check a log and see if there are people out there intentionally ruining someones' scores. Of course, this shouldn't be visible to the users since people may use it to retaliate.
0∈ [?]
If a picture is good enough for you to click on, it's good enough for you to vote on.
bjb
09/05/05 8:08 PM GMT
Low-ballers don't care. They'll do it even if the image has a c-index of 40. Seeing or not seeing that number makes no difference to them. It's an immediate zero if given any opportunity to vote whatsoever. Karma has nothing to do with it. More often than not I believe these are not fly-bys who get nothing in return by doing this. These are people who've been here long enough to get an obsessive chip on their shoulder. I don't see any way to restore the sanctity of the c-index without a full-time lookout/s for low-ballers and giving these lookouts some way to know exactly who is doing it. Give no warning. Ban immediately. No second chance. Period. Try to keep up with it just as we try to keep up with image rips. There's nothing wrong with the c-index. Never has been. But, unfortunately there will always be abusers. Quite often wolves in sheep's clothing. One would have to be extremely nervy to start something publicly with someone here then turn around and start low-balling the heck out of them. I don't think that's the way these people operate most of the time. Mind you, I said most of the time. ;( I agree more need to vote. As it has stood for some time now, a low-ball will hurt an image bigtime. There seems to be no acceptable recovery of numbers once the image plunges. Until this is straightened out, the c-index doesn't tell me a thing or help me in any way. I don't miss it at all. It's a rediculous thing to have to deal with, but if the c-index is going to be here, it appears it needs some constant attention and protection. Personally I would like for my votes to remain private. I was raised that way and don't even tell anyone who I voted for for President! I vote knowing I can back up any vote I make if I haven't already done so in my comments.
0∈ [?]
When you get the choice to sit it out or dance, I hope you dance... Leanne Womack
MorpheusZero
09/05/05 8:26 PM GMT
In this discussion, I have seen many good points supporting the c-index. But I have not seen anyone bring up any reasons why this has actually helped someone, except maker people feel "freer" to vote. The voting is there for a reason, to see what other people think of your image, like it or not. You shouldn't be hesitant to vote what you think for any reason (as long as it's the image your are judging) in the first place.
0∈ [?]
kjh000
09/05/05 10:03 PM GMT
I don't believe it's open for debate in any real sense. ^_^ I guess we could chat about it all night and into the next day without resolving the issue to everyones content. (Most certainly so...)

So, where to begin...

It's good it's "gone" because (among other things, in a rather fragmented order and not really in any way covering every angle):

I know for a fact that c-index has been very abused the last year (at least) and as such I don't trust it or really even enjoy it to any degree at all. I've because of this settled with being content with a c-index around and above 70. The only thing c-index reflects in these cases (and believe me, it's not the odd one out here) are the low self-esteem of the blackballers.

In fact it has no real, absolute value at all in the image moderators decision in moving them to the permanent galleries. The fact it's not really gone but still visible to the mods does obviously not change this.

The only thing c-index really is good for is boosting the ego of the image authors, and this is IMHO why it has been subject to such a profound level of abuse.

It's a crude tool to measure the quality of art. No numbers or combination of numbers in any number of combinations (i.e. formulas) can properly do this. ^_^ I feel strongly this is the weakest point in the whole c-index issue.

The votes, if we are lucky enough to rule out those that simply give crappy votes to people they don't like, are at best consequential only when it comes to the one voters preferences of that one artists particular pieces in one particular style. It's in other words a layman's tool at best.

It's been stated before, and I have little reason to doubt it, that c-index is not given to everyone at equal terms. Most people do a more or less conscious evaluation of the particular artist they view a piece from and place this in their curve of development and / or compare it to their best work. Some comparison is (and most certainly can be) done between artist but this is not usually just to any of the parties.

I for one don't feel I have enough command with my little abilities as an "artist" (or what you prefer to call it) to qualify as a judge over others (in any definitive way). I do hand out votes regularly but this is more a sign of my need to tell people I like what they do. (I really liked that "like" button someone came up with above. ^_^)

C-index has gone through an inflation in terms of what it means. Once upon a time a 10 was an exceptional thing (and getting moved to the permanent galleries certainly were) but now everyone hands out tens to everyone... Or at least they say they do.

I'm admitting BTW that I am an average high voter. Not all tens I must say, but certainly mostly above 7 (perhaps a 6 sometimes) with an good mean level of about 8 to 9. This is simply since I don't find any joy in giving out bad votes to pieces I don't like. Most do this except some more realistically oriented (or how to put it) people that have my full respect for that.

The reason this new situation helps is that anyone giving out low votes in order to hurt the artist will only be seen by the mods that already ignore these sorry creatures and recognize them for what they are.

Disclaimer:

I'm not really expecting (or trying) to have a conversation about this. I just say it since you seem to think there is nothing to be said about it. I don't claim to have the "right" opinion in any way and don't necessarily oppose any of you that have stated other opinions in this thread.

Cheers,
Klas
0∈ [?]
::WENPEDER
09/05/05 10:35 PM GMT
OK...I'll put in my two cents into this thread. I agree with those who valued the C-Index as ONE parameter helping them to understand how well their images were being received by others. I believe It's been suggested before, but I'll suggest it again...make the ability to vote contingent on whether someone takes the time to comment. After you comment, another screen could come up allowing the person to vote. Doing it that way would mean that the person would have looked at the image long enough to be able to offer commentary about it and the two ways of evaluating images would be more likely to go hand in hand. In addition, don't allow viewers to see the C-index until AFTER they have voted....that's an extra incentive to encourage people to take a few seconds to vote. The more votes on images, the more representative the AVERAGE of those votes would be. I don't think anyone but the moderators need to see the voting distribution, for the purpose of picking up on possible attack voting and to help them make decisions on the permanent galleries.

I have a problem with making the ability to vote contingent on some arbitrary "karma" number. That simply gives an advantage to people who have lots of time to hang out here and make lots of comments. Just because someone has lots of karma doesn't necessarily mean that they wouldn't resort to attack voting....

OK...my two cents has been thrown in the pot...<G>
Wen
0∈ [?]
kjh000
09/05/05 10:48 PM GMT
I understand what you mean, I just don't think that would result in more votes, rather the opposite. And... What would you think about getting all raving comments and votes that sucked? Happened to me all the time. What would that tell you?

I know what it told me. I'll keep that to myself though as a token to those that like to keep the discussion climate on here above the waist and PG 13...

I believe in the contrary that c-index perhaps not at all should be brought back in the form we know it (I know you propose a variation too). Perhaps only the view of the [dist] could tell us more about how the image is doing? No figures at all... Just the graphical representation of it. I would like that better in that case I think.
0∈ [?]
co2metal
09/05/05 10:51 PM GMT
But the thing is, if people with an already high karma decide to start an attack, chances are it would be noticeable and they could then be dealth with.. Like Dave said, people who would make attack votes do it because it is easy.. if we set a minimum karma number, etc, they would have to work for the right to vote again, and it is quite unlikely that they will even bother with it again. Of course there may be some hardcore attack voters out there that will do what it takes, but doing this would surely cut down on the majority of the problem.
0∈ [?]
click here for pure excellence
co2metal
09/05/05 10:52 PM GMT
[Was in response to Wendy's post]
0∈ [?]
click here for pure excellence
kjh000
09/05/05 11:02 PM GMT
It took more then a year to deal with the most flagrant abuse you can only imagine...

I don't blame the administration here for not being more decisive though. I'm happy to say I believe they have lives on the side of this place and definitely got their priorities right...

That does not mean I didn't get bugged by my attacks and by the fact that they went on and on. It simply means I have no problems with that caedes and his mods can't or won't spend all of their time here resolving all our petty issues. (Lets face it, they are... ^_^)
0∈ [?]
::WENPEDER
09/05/05 11:18 PM GMT
All "Karma" amounts to is how many times a person has commented on the images of others. It's not some magic measure of honesty, Andy.
Wen
0∈ [?]
MorpheusZero
09/06/05 12:27 AM GMT
You brought up some really good points, Klas.
Anyway, Wen, I think the idea behind it is that people who low vote wouldn't bother to get a certain amount of Karma for all of their accounts (if any), thus reducing the amount of malicious votes. On the other hand, as Klas has stated, some of the low voters had lots of Karma (who were they, anyway?), so this would not solve the problem completely.
0∈ [?]
::Radjehuty
09/06/05 12:48 AM GMT
I think you are missing the point Wendy.

Let's say the minimum was set to say...500 Karma points. Indeed it may not give you the honesty of the person, but that's irrelevant. The point is, that it does take time to put 500 posts of comments on a website. Possibly enough time where the person wouldn't bother. I know that I definately do not post more than 2 dozen times a night, which would take me a while to rebuild that 500.

Again, we aren't looking for honesty in any abuser or person. We are just looking to see if we can skim off the lazy abusers (which in most cases is a very good chunk of them).

Most of the ones who would have to rebuild that 500 Karma points and 3 month wait would probably come to the conclusion that it's too much work, and not worth it.
0∈ [?]
"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
::WENPEDER
09/06/05 12:53 AM GMT
I see the point, Dave. I just don't happen to support it. Thanks for offering ideas, though.
Wen
0∈ [?]
::Radjehuty
09/06/05 1:07 AM GMT
What do you suggest then Wendy?
0∈ [?]
"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
::WENPEDER
09/06/05 2:18 AM GMT
See above, Dave....
Wen
0∈ [?]
::Radjehuty
09/06/05 2:54 AM GMT
Well I won't get sucked into another of your childish quarrels again, but this is what I understand about your "solution": To hide the C-Index from the public, and only you would be able to see your own C-Indexes.

Well I think the only thing that would do is make it so only you can determine if you got attacked or not. I mean, if it is a personal attack, than that won't do anything at all.

I can see how you might think it will work, but I don't think it will stop a significant percentage.
0∈ [?]
"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
::WENPEDER
09/06/05 3:07 AM GMT
Dave. I gave a rather long summary of suggestions above. I don't know why you've chosen to characterize anything I've said here as a "childish quarrel." It seems to me that it is you who is in a quarrelsome mood and I refuse to go there with you again. I suggest that you scroll up and read what I suggested above again more carefully. Your characterization of what I said is not at all accurate.
Wen
0∈ [?]
warocle
09/06/05 3:23 AM GMT
I just want to say I disagree with this, and will be removing all my images from Caedes. goodbye.
0∈ [?]
The end is near.... Storms are coming
::Radjehuty
09/06/05 3:30 AM GMT
Well, ok then what were your other ideas?
0∈ [?]
"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
warocle
09/06/05 3:33 AM GMT
Uhh.. i think the c-index should have been left visible?
0∈ [?]
::Radjehuty
09/06/05 3:34 AM GMT
After reading another idea of yours about making voting contingent upon wether or not you comment is an interesting suggestion. It might put a stop to some abusing, but it might also at the same time discourage some users from voting who may feel that they do not need to add anything. I know that sometimes I vote without commenting because I feel that they don't need any comments/criticism and I would rather reflect what I think in a vote.
0∈ [?]
"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
::nmsmith
09/06/05 3:40 AM GMT
Caedes wrote: "I've removed all printing of the c-index and image ratings number until further notice. I think that people have become too enamored by this little number and it is failing to serve its intended purpose. For now, the ratings on images will be used only by the moderators in finding images to add to the permanent galleries. I think that we need to concentrate the focus on putting constructive comments where they need to go instead."

Good move, Caedes. I believe this move will do exactly what you hoped it will - eliminate a lot of controversy. (Applause and cheering in the background). :)
0∈ [?]
::Radjehuty
09/06/05 4:40 AM GMT
lol Nathan
0∈ [?]
"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
::fotobob
09/06/05 6:54 AM GMT
I didn't have time to read the long list of coments submitted by this group so this may have been covered already. Firts let me say that I am happy to see the C-Index go. All it seemed to do was to bruise someone's ego. Now for my question. For a day or maybe two I was getting a historgram showing the distrubition of votes. I found this informatom more helpful than a mysterious C-Index How about using this distrubtion chart? I would think that all of us could live with this system.
Fotobob
0∈ [?]
Annie and I invite you to visit our website. Photography is not a trade - it is an art. It is more that an art. It is a solar phenomenon, where the artist collaborates with the sun. deLamartine 1855
kjh000
09/06/05 8:02 AM GMT
I believe I said something of that sort but I'll not hold that against you. ;) (I usually wind up telling my good ideas buried deep inside the longest and most boring sections of my posts... ^_^)

It's a very good idea at any rate. I'm all for it. (Naturally. ^_^) I found that feature quite informative and rather useful in terms of how the images did at large.

The best feature is that you don't get hung up on a single figure but get a fast intuitive view of how the piece was received. (Plus I liked the fact that it was sort of dynamic in the quantity aspect.) We don't need to know exactly how people vote then. It would also be quite obvious if there was any "factors" skewing the votes and easier to ignore at large... A figure seems so definitive (and one dimensional at best) in comparison to the [dist] graphical display.
0∈ [?]
panoramaster
09/06/05 8:40 AM GMT
I agree with Robert and Klas; the vote distribution was a far more effective indication of the community’s opinion of the post, compared to the cold one dimensional c-index. And that solution also takes into consideration the discriminatory votes, allowing both the poster and the viewer to see that someone has voted with somewhat malicious intentions.
0∈ [?]
It seems to me that what wears us down the most in life aren't the chances we take, but the chances we dont take, the dreams we put aside, the adventures we push away, the questions that are never answered
ajmitchell
09/06/05 12:18 AM GMT
I agree, I would be totally happy be either no C-index (or moderator view only) but I think the vote distribution histogram was excellent and should be re-introduced. It easily shows if theres some silly 0/1 outliers which eveyone will ignor.

Alex
0∈ [?]
Redjazone
09/06/05 3:52 PM GMT
I liked the rating. I always found it interesting to see what people considered to be your best image. Could there be a way of showing them in order, but without the actual rating? That way we can still see what people like to see in our images at a glance ;)

Cheers Red
0∈ [?]
gregwrld
09/06/05 4:05 PM GMT
My biggest problem with the voting is that "10" is defined simply as "Good" when there is lot of "Good" work work here. To give someone a 9 implies that it is less than "Good" without being able to say what is "Great" or "Excellent".
Bring back the index but give the numbers specific, reasonable definitions...
0∈ [?]
::philcUK
09/06/05 4:24 PM GMT
I agree on the numbering definitions and would like to see the distribution chart return - still view the index itself as being too contentious though and if people made the effort to comment on images it would also be virtually superfluous as a members tool. I’m not sure I buy into that ' I have no time to leave a message ' routine or voting on images that you haven’t even opened up to view as many contain detail in them, both good and bad, that isn’t always apparent from the thumbnail. Typing a simple comment or suggestion should take only a little more time than voting/reloading the page. It’s not a great deal to ask of anyone. If people are throwing a paddy about it’s demise and leaving the site over it then it just goes to show how much they have been focusing on it at rather than the work itself.
0∈ [?]
"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps"
::Radjehuty
09/06/05 8:35 PM GMT
gregwrld has a point. It almost seems as if getting a 7 is a horrible insult and 4's and 5's are almost to the point of vote attack. I think we should really take a look at the way we were voting ourselves.
0∈ [?]
"The person who says it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it." -Chinese Proverb
postaldude66
09/07/05 12:17 AM GMT
The C-index was the thing that made this site particularly ahead of others..and the fact there wasn't so many members that you couldn't know a fair few of them. Lets see what happens without a c-index...as a trial ..but i would really like it to return..with possibly some changes that a few people have suggested. I really liked the c-index, and in my opinion it was pretty much the only thing this sight had over deviantart, i don't think i have ever experienced group of 'low voters' but it seems to be a problem ..and so if we could find a way of preventing what they do, then this site would be a whole lot better altogether.
0∈ [?]
=xentrik
09/07/05 3:21 PM GMT
I think many of you have forgotten or not heard that caedes is, and has been, working on a new voting system that will pretty much remove the ability to "vote attack". The removal of the c-index is temporary, as he mentioned already.

There are many factors at work here, of which I think you're all blaming whatever happens to be convenient for your agenda. Everyone has different standards of voting, what may be an 8 to one person is a 4 to another. People who see a c-index of 90 on something they think is a 5 may vote lower ("attack") because they feel their opinion is more important than everyone else's and they want to pull it down, not because they hate you. Yes, it's just as bad and shouldn't be done, but it's not a personal attack and will be much harder to detect. Then there are the people continuously voting high for their friends, which is just as bad for the site as the people who vote you down.

There is no reason to remove the numbers 1-5, as there *are* images that deserve these numbers. Recall that 5 is described as "average". As the overall quality of images on the site goes up, the c-index should ideally adjust. If you're having trouble with the bad->average->good continuum, realize that the names are really only there to tell you which end of the scale is defined as better or worse.

The c-index has always had some issues, from vote inflation to the "TNI Curse" to vote attacking. It's taking a break so everyone can calm down and take a breath for awhile and see that it's just a number. Sure it conjures strong emotion, but as you can tell from the posts on this thread, everyone has a different understanding of the voting and how they should grade something as subjective as art. Just relax... I have faith caedes will design the perfect system eventually.

0∈ [?]
+ppigeon
09/07/05 4:12 PM GMT
Amen! :-)
0∈ [?]
-pierre-
=xentrik
09/07/05 9:59 PM GMT
See?! That was quick!
0∈ [?]
MythD
09/07/05 10:26 PM GMT
Hey, here's a thought, Why not post pictures without who authored them?! This would be a way to stop the "games people play"! Everyone would have to vote on the quality of the shot and not who did the shot! Hey, as I said this is just a thought. Overall, I really like the site and have had no problems with it. It has been my way of having my photo's validated. And to get one into the "Galleries" is an honor that I think most here are trying for!
0∈ [?]
::Nikoli
09/14/05 1:48 PM GMT
The new voting booth leaves a degree of mystery about things I never know what image will appear next therefore being more truthfull and honest about the images impact and first impression which is a good thing I think. With being able to comment on images and have conversations with the artists is also good as this encourages communication and a feeling of togetherness. It leaves a fresh breath of air knowing that people can be treated as individuals for their own perspective on things. You can still see the distribution of votes and as a consequence of this ask in the form of a thread what could have been done differently / what could be changed etc. People dont like change anyway and you cant change that but after a month or 2 people may accept the change and move on etc possibly and get on with things.
0∈ [?]
Live the dream and hope for nothing less than the life you create for yourself.
drbasil
09/17/05 5:35 PM GMT
A while back Rob mentioned "add a simple button to indicate that you liked the image. If you don't click it, it doesn't matter. If you do, you're telling the poster that you liked their image. Display the number of times that people clicked the button."
Photography/art is a very subjective and often sentimental field. I prefer commenting rather than voting, takes just as long to type excellent as ponder on a numerical value to exemplify the quality of an image. People who vote things like 0 really need to grow up though. And this business about only mods deciding.... Whilst I have no issues with any mods, it doesn't sound like much of a democracy. If only MP's/ Senators or whatever voted on behalf of citizens, I wouldn't be too happy.

I'm 100% in favour of Rob's suggestion. I cannot possibly see one fault in it.
0∈ [?]
There is nothing more incredible than the human eye. No camera can match it!
MythD
09/17/05 7:21 PM GMT
I like the voting booth and have used it often. I like the dist. button but when I checked to see what was being voted, I was dissapointed. I had recieved a 0 and a 1! I personally don't believe most pictures deserve that vote. The only time I vote low is if the picture is too blurry or misses the mark and even then, I have given a 4 as the lowest vote. Please people, remember that even if you do not like the photo subject, someone took time to try to capture a moment or are trying to elicit an emotion. Please look at this before blasting a photo. Thanks for taking the time to read this and hopefully this will cause pause to think before acting. This is a great site and I do enjoy all the different photo's and art. Please keep them coming!
0∈ [?]
::RobNevin
09/19/05 12:21 AM GMT
Thanks Basil... nice to know someone noticed, understood, and even liked the idea.

"add a simple button to indicate that you liked the image. If you don't click it, it doesn't matter. If you do, you're telling the poster that you liked their image. Display the number of times that people clicked the button."


Rob
0∈ [?]
You're invited to tour my gallery ••• º¹º¹ºº¹¹º¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ºººº¹¹º¹ººº

Leave a comment (registration required):

Subject: