When I started posting photos about 15 months ago, a picture that I posted the day before could be seen still on the 2nd or 3rd page (12 or 15 to a page) the next day. Today four hours after posting a photo it is already on the 4th page. The number of postings have more than doubled, it seems. My point is this : I have the impression that unless you belong to a clique your photos won't be commented so much. Many newcomers post their photos but do not bother to comment on any photos. My latest posting has an 83% download but zero comments! So, must I send out requests for comment every time?

Ok, but your gallery is filled with flowers photos.
Maybe these images don't attract comments...

uh oh...run, Pierre, I see an angry blue-haired mob coming :P

Raj, it isn't so much as a clique (at least I'd like to say it isn't) as it is a reciprocal thing. most people who comment, are "returning the favor" to those who comment on their work. you have alot of people who only comment on artists on their "friend's list" also. hope this helps.

I think I understand and have to agree with you Raj!! Since the "friends" thing was established it's all I can do to check threads, work on my post, vote, and view and comment on my friends post. I rarely just cruise through "New Images" as I had done prior, I miss that. I know I could simply not comment on my friends list, that seems wrong to me too as I wanna be supportive and feel as though they've learned from me and that I've learned from them. I wish the day could be longer!!

I'd rather have comments on my images based on it moved the person or they have an idea for improvement vs the "returning the favor" type thing.

I think the site took a wrong turn with the "friends" thing. I commented on this before and my friends understand...it's nothing against them at all,...I hope they do anyway as I do luv them all and respect their comments. When I upload an image and get comments from people I don't even know...that's what I really focus on...they really liked something I did or have an idea for possible improvements. Again, nothing against my friends!!

Perhaps a switch to turn off the friends notifications without having to dissolve the list entirely

that would drop you back into quiet Friday nightville .. um .. overnight .. and, later, if you miss the party circuit, you can switch it back on.

paid for by the TOFU for YOU council ..

I think Raj also has a very valid point about the images getting "buried" too quickly, which makes it much harder for people to see them. The number of images also makes it harder because it means that after going through your friends list (shaddup, I know I haven't done it lately), finding the time to go through and look @ all other images takes real dedication… to ignoring the outside world.

I'd quit my job and be a dedicated commenter if somebody would pay me to do that instead…

Thanks for all your comments. To Randy I want to say this : Have you noticed that these comments by friends hardly ever contain any criticism or suggestions? Friends are there to point out your faults/failures as well (like Keith. heh. heh). I had once before suggested that besides voting on 10 pictures the contributor must be asked everytime to comment on some as well. But then again there are contributors who may have a language problem. That can perhaps be solved by offering a list of 20 or so comments to choose from. I think that if I had ten friends I'll be sitting here for hours every day.

I'm right behind you Raj. Notice I didn't say in front of you. The site has become cliqueish (if there is such a word) and dare I say a little narrow minded when it comes to subject matter. Maybe this is just human nature, if we don't like the subject matter many people seem give a low score regardless of photographic quality. And I totally agree with you on your comment about constructive critisism - where is it? I joined the site hoping to tap into people's knowledge and experience about photography and expand my knowledge also - but alas, I'm learning other lessons, oh well. I don't want to start another discussion about CI's, that horse has been beat enough. But really, what does the score tell? That some people don't like the picture... Does it indicate why? Of course not.

Do I have a solution? Unfortunately, no. But I do believe the site could be much more valuable if it became a learning site also. Maybe that's too much to expect from a computer wallpaper site.

Flame shields up, and ready to pack my bags, if necessary.

I think curtailing the amount of images that members can upload on a weekly basis would help alleviate many problems in one fell swoop including the quality of uploads, the attention they receive and a potentially higher voting sample.

I'm right behind you Phil.

um, yeah. Cat, when did you last post anything? hush, woman :P

Do you really think the amount of images I have or have not posted has anything to do with my ability to contribute to the site in other useful ways? My ability to comment on a regular basis has dropped off because of my inability to deal w/the sheer volume of images posted.

lighten up, crabby-pants. all I'm saying is that maybe someone who doesn't post ought to consider the feelings and thoughts of those who do.

PS- I'd ask you to consider the hours (one image, as I recall, took (190?) to render. or how many hours are consumed seeking out "that shot", and then editing it afterwards. so, contribution isn't just limited to time spent posting, or commenting.

and really, if you're not posting, and not commenting (or commenting less, would be fairer to say), how exactly ARE you contributing?

A) I am considering the feelings of those who do, sorry you don't take it that way.

B) I used to comment and contribute more, and I do give constructive criticism when I comment not simply "ooh how awesome", and I'd like to be able to do so more again. I had already said to you privately that I have been starting to get back into it, but my point about the sheer volume remains valid.

C) By seeing an issue and commenting on it, or agreeing that it's a valid issue.

D) You don't get to call me crabby pants because I objected to your telling me my opinion is worth less because I don't post regularly.

SO THERE

*WEDGIE*

no. I didn't say your opinion is worth less. Where I'm coming from is here: I think those who should be the most vocal on the amount of postings, ought to be those who post. I guess what I'm saying is that we've got more of a personal stake in the outcome of an opinion being expressed.

Sorry, Cat, but for the most part, lately you've either been silent in the sidelines, or absent. No one is discounting the reasons why (as we all have lives, and stuff that happens in them). I'm also not forgetting the work you did a while back in the Vigilante threads. But that was more of an Admin thing, than anything else.

If you're still with me up to this point, consider this. I think the real focus shouldn't be on reducing the raw number of posts altogether (shouldn't we be happy to see the site grow, anyway?), but maybe working harder to increase the quality of them. If alot of (may I call them questionable?) posts are firmly, and consistently blocked from being uploaded, that should reduce the load considerably.

.
.
.
.
.


*PETER PAN!* (thwang...snapppp)

PPS sorry, Raj. kinda took your thread on a "3 hour tour" there.

There again… you have said that my opinion is worth less... that it counts less. Simply because I have not posted lately, nor am I the most regular poster. I do not agree with you. I may not be the most regular contributer to the site, but i do contribute in my way, and again, hopefully more regularly in the near future. (Please also let it be noted, that I'm talking about commenting and leaving constructive criticism, which I normally do, and hopefully artistically as well, NOT administratively as in the VJ).

You may feel free to disagree with me, as you did in your final paragraph, and I take that as valid, and will discuss from there, but please do not put down my right to have an opinion and express it... not mine nor the most newbie member of the site.

now might be a good time for someone other than just you or I to weigh in here.

That's fine. I'll bow out until we hear from some others.

*Has been reading* Okay....Whats going on here?

Just because a member hasn't posted an image for awhile or treaded the boards of the forums doesn't mean that they are not taking an interest in the site... I think EVERYONE regardless of their length of membership or whether they write in comments or threads have a right to give their opinion.. some people don't have the time to "debate" on here (they have the real world to get deal with too), but they take the time to go through the countless day to day new images.. that is still participating in the site.. As far as I'm concerned as long as you are a member you have the freedom of speech like everyone else..

*goes back into the dark corner to await the response.. lol

"I think those who should be the most vocal on the amount of postings, ought to be those who post. I guess what I'm saying is that we've got more of a personal stake in the outcome of an opinion being expressed."

that doesn't mean that noone has the right to express their opinion. all I'm saying is that someone who doesn't post, or doesn't post regularly, and expresses an opinion on....how often posting should occur...is doing more armchair-quarterbacking than anything else.

"*goes back into the dark corner to await the response.. lol"


I think part of the problem is that too many members do just that, instead of actively participating. The more opinions are expressed,the more of an accurate snapshot(sorry) of the membership's feelings will be revealed.

RE: "*goes back into the dark corner to await the response"

I think a lot of members don't get involved on these threads anymore simply because when they do they either end up having nasty PM's (as you know), the thread turns into an all out slaughter or your treated like an idiot for bringing things up..

Just because a member doesnt regularly post or write on here doesn't mean that they don't have a "personal stake" in the outcome of an opinion.. eg.. I haven't posted much for a few months now due to family drama's but i'm still active in strolling through the new images, voting when i get the chance.. I read all the threads but don't comment on them much.. so I'm still active even if you don't see anything from me.. therefore a lot of other members are probably doing exactly the same..

I'd have to disagree with the armchair-quarterbacking. That's done by those who have NO involvement on the subject other than to comment on it.

While I may not post as regularly, I did used to be (and again, hope to be soon) a regular commentor on images. That and the fact that I am also here as a member, to enjoy the site and the images that I get and use from here, mean I am an active participant in this subject.

I'd have been perfectly happy if you'd said something along the lines of "I hear what you're saying, I'd really like to hear how members who post regularly feel about this".

Also, I see alot more members here lately expressing an overall opinion of their wishes… from disliking the number of poor quality images that have been allowed to post, to others who have said they think the upload limit needs to be reduced. A few new threads saying how awesome the site is. The more voices the better - because again, it's not only the people who upload daily who actively receive something from this site. You can weigh that contribution and that opinion for what it's worth in your eyes, but everyone should still be able to put their 2 cents in.

k?

" I'd have been perfectly happy if you'd said something along the lines of "I hear what you're saying, I'd really like to hear how members who post regularly feel about this". "

funny thing is, I was just about to, when I hit "refresh" and saw you beat me to it. so, I'll just agree.

lol. now back to the fun

*lobs water balloon and goes off to watch Big Brother - now there's some REAL armchair-quarterbacking*

i'm curious about this "blocked images" thing. i've never had an image blocked i'm happy to say. approximately how many images (per day) are blocked. is it because they aren't original or because they violate something.

I believe Rob is referring to mods rejecting uploads from the getgo. Images can be rejected because they aren't original, violate the CCOC or that the mod simply feels the image is not of sufficient quality to post. See the "Pet Snapshots" thread in the "Desktop Art" forum for more debate on that.

I have been reading this thread with great interest.
Raj, I agree completely that images get buried way too quickly to garner any adequate attention from anyone.
Phil, I agree 100% that curtailing the number of images uploaded per week will solve that problem.
Pierre, I don't think it is a "flower thing" that diminishes comments anymore than it's a 'sunset thing' or a 'landscape thing an 'architecture thing'.
Randy, I agree that the friend's list is not the best thing for the site. There is no way that I can keep up and comment on the friends on my list. I use it to 'browse' & then move on to the new images.
Rob, can you help me out here? What constitutes being a 'member'? Or a qualified member?
Do you go by the "Most Active Members" list?
I also don't like that comments are a 'reciprocal thing'. That means the only people who will get comments are those who spend 100 hours a week on the site typing fluffy comments. That is very unfair and so not right. To me, it is a form of punishment to those who don't spend hours on the site. I had plenty of punishment as a kid...lol
Cat, I agree that anyone here has the right to weigh in on any discussion, as well as any topic. Your reasons for not doing what others do is just that...your reasons! Our opinions are quite varied here on the site;=)
Nothing should take away from anyone being a 'member' & weighing in on any topic ( that is just my opinion, of course!)
OK, carry on now, I am done spouting ;=)

Yep. Maybe I was a little angry when I post my first comment...
Sorry for that! :-)
I think that the friends list is basically good. But we must take the time to look into the 'new image gallery' and to comment "no(yet)-friends" images...

I agree Pierre....the new images are important. I think a lot of us have lost sight of that fact. The number of uploads is overwhelming(at least to me). I can only imagine the difficulties that the +mods face on a daily basis. Thank you for what you do ;=)

I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest too. And I disagree with the idea that the just because someone doesn't comment as much as others, or someone doesn't upload images as often as others, is somehow less of a member, or not quite as qualified to speak as others. I realize I'm nowhere near as active as I used to be, but I'd like to think my voice still carried the weight it used to.

I am still a member of Caedes.

I like the friends list - the people on my list are there because I discovered them in the New Images section and because I liked their type of work. All those whose images I comment on regularly know (because i have told them) that I do not spend time thanking them for their comments (I just do not have the time)- they can take it for granted that I appreciate them, whether they be two words or two pages.I think if we are completely honest most of us post images in the first place to say "hey , look what I did' and if we receive helpful and instructive suggestions to improve then that is a bonus. It was been mentioned that not very often do the comments from friends offer constructive critisism but it could also be said that comments from non-friends do not either - in fact the comments from non friends are few and far between(and are usually because an image impressed) and for that reason are always GREATLY appreciated - someone has noticed an image and felt moved to say something. I, for one, would not look at an image which did little or nothing for me and scurry off to tell them so,as I do when I like one, and unfortunately I do not have the required expertise to suggest helpful ways to improve such an image. I think we all try to do as much as time will allow and if it becomes 'tit for tat' and we go and visit the gallery of someone who has taken the time to say something about our own images- then surely that is a good thing - very often I have discovered treasure troves of great images simply by doing that. There are other sites where the friendship thing does not exist and sure yes - there are more constructive comments but without any feeling of community. A friendly and caring environment is the best place to learn and imho this is it.
As well as the new images section the Voting Booth is an ideal place to to branch out from and further investigate images from members not on our own FL.
As for flower photos not collecting comments - that may be so, I am not sure, but they must obtain their portion of votes as do all images. they may be voted low but they are just as visible as any other type. I suspect many voters view them with a certain amount of distain judging by some of the scores, so thanks friends for appreciating mine and saying so :) After spending very often 3 or 4 hours trying to perfect a picture I am grateful for any comment on it from any source, be it an informative and well thought out appraisal or simple a 'not one of your best', or more pleasingly 'wow' which brings me back to the idea that the main reason we post is to show off our work, and most of us, except for a few talented artists have a fair mixture of the good the bad and the ugly, although what constitutes which is different for each viewer.
I think perhaps many voters look at an image and think 'I dont like this' and so vote it low without taking time to consider its merits. I often give comparitively high scores to a personally disliked picture because I can see (without being a rocket scientist) its good points. Which is getting off the subject, sorry.

I think perhaps the disappearance of images way down the line on the New pages is partly dependant on the time it is uploaded. If uploaded at a 'popular' time of day it is bound to soon sink behind those following when there are in the region of 150 new images per day, if you have 'sort by date' selected.

I needed/wanted some breathing room from this thread in order to be able to comment sanely, and without undue emotional influence.

When I said:

"I think those who should be the most vocal on the amount of postings, ought to be those who post. I guess what I'm saying is that we've got more of a personal stake in the outcome of an opinion being expressed."

and:

"all I'm saying is that someone who doesn't post, or doesn't post regularly, and expresses an opinion on....how often posting should occur...is doing more armchair-quarterbacking than anything else."

what I was trying to say, albeit unsuccessfully, is that I'd be more comfortable with "WE should post less, as opposed to YOU should post less. Having members who dont post as much, or at all, comment on the amount of posting, felt less like a "sharing, all-in-it-together" type of atmosphere, and more of an edict from someone who, since they themselves didnt post as much, weren't directly affected by the outcome. Had someone, or various "someones" voiced the same sentiment, it might've been received differently.

I'm not here to say who should, and shouldn't be a member, or even what determines "membership"(although I can see how what I said could be taken as such). I will say that in a couple of cases, not just on this thread, perhaps a greater effort should be made to read (as in understand, translate, etc) the actual meaning and context of what someone has to say, and not just words or phrases that they use.

(continued)


As I understood it, the more volume a site has, the more variety it can offer. I still maintain that if quality goes up a notch..or three, that will better the site in the long run. Less snapshots, stricter standards,etc. all help. As for the volume, I see that as being a greater workload, but then, that just means more mods need to be in place.

To address those who are concerned about images getting "buried", perhaps we need a different means, or method of viewing. Less dependance on the Friends list, and some otherway to see the images, perhaps a feature that allows more than 36 thumbs to be displayed at one time, or a different category(ies) to cross-reference, other than the ones in place now. For example, the "perm" photography gallery is broken down by category. The "new images" gallery isn't, in terms of selective viewing, anyway.

Thoughts?

And no, "my butt itches" wasn't quite the variety of thought I was looking for...hi Randy...

I think I understood what you said before to be what you are saying now .. but .. it will always be important, for everybody, to remember that the value of a member is not in their post count or frequency

Whether or not the posting limits change, we DO need raise the bar on what is selected by the members for posting, and what is approved for acceptance ...

'...the "perm" photography gallery is broken down by category. The "new images" gallery isn't, in terms of selective viewing, anyway. '

As I understand it, this is due to a technical limitation (ie the site does not support sub-sub-galleries), rather than a choice.

As far as further limiting the number of uploads allowed per week, I think this is a good idea as it might make people more carefully consider what they upload as well as reducing the overall number of images uploaded each day.

I understand the reasoning behind that, but shouldn't they be doing that now, anyway? and not to beat a dead horse (I hope), but wouldn't just getting more mods make it easier?

more mods --> more images --> more discussions --> etc...
Where is the limit?
Maybe we should be more critic at the first acceptation and reject automatically all images without obvious artistic qualities...

Wouldn't the mods' job be simplified by making voting compulsory for everyone, before an image could be uploaded. A greater number of votes would give a more balanced appraisal of each image. (I seem to have said that before somewhere . . .lol)

Sometimes . . the repeated suggestion of limiting the allowable uploads to less than the present 2 per day can make some of us feel slightly guilty for taking advantage of the allocation. As it appears to be offered as a 'reward' for joining the cadre one would think that using it would be regarded as a good thing, but it can be a a bit demoralising when one begins to think it is not seen that way.
As far as I am aware I have never had an image rejected but would accept that quite willingly. I do not think most members deliberately submit poor quality images - it is difficult to be objective about our own work.
Has the daily number of uploads increased Sam? Since I have taken any notice it seems have been fairly steady for some time.

Just harking back to the origins of this thread.
Ramad, I just took a peek at your gallery and you have some wonderful work!

I also followed with interest this thread. I support the idea of limiting the number of images uploaded per week, I believe that this would oblige members to spend more time in selecting which of their images images are worth posting. My personal impression is that the average quality of the images posted has not massively improved recently (<<euphemism warning here).
Rob

Perhaps the longer we have been here the more discerning we become as to what constitutes a 'good' image - and what is rubbish. I doubt the overall quality would improve with a more restricted number allowed - the ratio of good/poor would remain the same. It would still be the same members uploading, each with their own level of quality. There would just be fewer to choose from.
:)
Maybe more encouragement to interact in the site by way of voting/appraising/commenting would enlighten more of us as to the suitability of our own work for display, and the priviledge of uploading could be earned this way.
In theory anyone without an atom of talent and with nothing to offer can pay their subs and upload 2 garbage posts per day if they choose to, without giving anything in return, just for the thrill of seeing their images on their screens.

edit: I am not acusing anyone of doing this, just that it is possible :)

Ideas spawn more ideas. What if you only voted on genres that you "signed up for" or contributed to? In other words, if you wish to vote on flower pics, then you would sign up or contribute shots for the flower group. If you wanted to vote on fractals, then you would sign up or contribute to the fractal group, etc. This would allow photos to be judged by other fans/contributors of that genre, who should either have the ability to judge the category within its own peer group or be interested enough to learn more about a particular genre.

I guess my point is this: can a car photographer contribute objectively to a flower photo? How about vice versa? In an ideal world the answer is probably "of course". However, I would guess that not all are that objective when it comes right down to it. Afterall, the technical merits of a photo can usually be judged rather objectively, but let's face it, if the subject matter doesn't appeal to us, most of us won't even bother looking at it. e.g. "Wow look at the sharpness, contrast, composition and depth of field of that washing machine photo" - seems a little rediculous to me.

There are some fundamental problems with the idea but like I said up front - maybe this idea will spawn another.

... Then we need flowers mods, cars mods, ... ;-)
Sure a photographer specialized in flowers can appreciate and criticize a car capture.
But I agree with you about cgi<>Photos. When I'm looking at the 'new images->abstract' or 'computer', it's difficult to me to choose which should be moved in the perms and which not. So I don't often do it ;-)

"Sure a photographer specialized in flowers can appreciate and criticize a car capture." - Yes, Pierre, as long as he is not a "car hater" or a "flower hater". You said in response to my entry (right at the top) that my gallery is full of flowers and that these probably do not attract comments - Excuse me, but that is not the kind of response I would have expected from a praetor. Any photo of any object which is reasonably well executed should normally deserve a comment.

Without wishing to put words in his mouth, I’d imagine Pierre meant that if you were posting into a genre that is very over saturated such as flowers (from a seasonal point of view at least) you are probably far less likely to receive critique from a casual browser than if it were something that was striking and stood out amongst the thumbnails. No one is obliged to offer critique or comment just because the posting artist believes their work technically merits it. It’s pretty much like a storefront in a mall. If your shop display is basically the same as everyone else’s – not so many people will loiter around to have a look.

Ok, Phil, thanks for clarifying this matter. The comment from Pierre was somewhat misleading.

Is the genre flowers really oversaturated ?- seasons should not make any difference - all the time there are all four seasons somewhere in the world.
I notice there are 77 pages (12 to a page) in the Flowers gallery, and 100 in the Landscapes. Then of course there are the 'sub' landscape galleries, waterfalls, mountains, nature, shorelines etc - all landscapes really.
There are just as many possible different images of flowers as any other genre - maybe they could be divided into categories too - roses, tree blossoms, wild flowers etc etc. I think I am joking on that one. I think . .
Anyway I never hear anyone say there are too many butterflies or too many birds or too many mountains. Always if is poor old flowers that get the bad press. Are the flower images generally inferior quality-wise than other sections? It requires no less skill to produce a good flower image than a car or a building or a mountain but I hear what you are saying Phil - they all begin to look the same after a while.

i think its more about presentation Lyn - which we have discussed before I think - it doesnt hurt to mix things up and try new things with whatever genre you are doing. i only mentioned Flowers as this seems to be the bulk of Ramads gallery. if you take a look at it - his latest nine images are all presented in a virtually identical style and palette (at least from a superficial POV) when you get a large catalogue of images like that - that's when the over saturation becomes obvious.

People ALWAYS complain about one style of shot or another at some point usually because there are too many or too few of them - sometimes both at the same time - it's just one of those cyclic things we see come and go :-)

Come, come, Phil - my last nine images are so different from one another in colour, shape etc. I showed them full view close up to show the beauty of the flower. Take a look again and say truly, are they boring?

I didn’t say they were boring Raj - just from a superficial POV very similar i.e. when you look at them collectively as thumbnails - yes they are different but in style and composition at that size at least they are similar which is where my shop front analogy comes in. People are most likely not going to open every image they see but rather scan the thumbnails and wait for the magpie effect to kick in and grab their attention.

Ooops! I said above that I was sorry for that first comment... What can I say more?
Raj: If you are going into the 'Photography->Flowers' gallery, I think I moved myself at least 80% of the recent images. You see that I can appreciate them ;-)
Please, take a look at this gallery. We try to privilege the originality of the compositions.
Example 1 (with a c-index = 59!)
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
And now, compare with your gallery
Do you see what we mean?
The difference stands more in the composition than in the technical qualities...

So, I'm curious. Where do people start their range for voting? What do you score an "average" photo? What constitutes a "2" or "3"?

I'm not asking why (but I'm sure it will be discussed), just where do you start your personal judging meter?

I take into account as much as I can think of.
Composition, angle, light, colours perhaps, clarity, graininess, imagination perhaps etc etc You have to stand back and say 'ok even if I don't like this..where are they going with it and how well have they done with what they have'.

OK, but what number do you consider as average, that is, what number do you start your own mental process from and go up or down from there?

I try to give a score on each of the things about 1-4 and take the number into account to work out the actual score.
I can't give you a hard and fast way to do it as every image is different as is every person.

Ok, some photos will leap out at me and make me smile instantly so a higher score is given.
An image I don't like will be scored on its merits as much as possible but I'm unlikely to give it a 10..I just try to be as fair as I can whilst still being honest. :)

Thanks Bonnie. Anybody else???

Click HOW I VOTE

LynEve, thanks so much for the link to the previous discussion. It's very enlightening - especially for those of us who are relatively new.