I can't take credit for what is to follow below this preamble:

I created this thread in response to some rumblings as of late.

Forgive me the use of that word ... 'rumblings' in particular, that is.

For some it goes deeper than that. And for some ... there is an unawareness of the current state of affairs.

Consider this then, a Caedesian public servic.. ... no, strike that ... this is not an official statement or release from the administrative side. These are my own personal feelings. And no single individual was in mind when the impetus struck to create this thread.



Found this article on ... of all places ... deviantart.com.

No slight against anyone that might be a member of dA.

Simply stated, it seems as though some problems of what happens and occurs on art sites are universal. Bigger, in terms of membership, does not insulate an art site from 'problems'. Nor, the converse.

The article is a well-articulated and thoughtfully expressed opinion ... that employed a lot of insight and foresight (in my humble opinion).



Here is the food for thought:

"1) When was the last time you received a comment on an image, or your gallery that gave a reason why the commenter thought it was good or bad?

2) When did someone tell you how your work made them feel?

3) When did someone last try to explain the significance of your work or it's meaning?

4) When was the last time someone suggested improvements, or offered constructive criticism?

5) How ofen is constructive criticism followed by a barrage of abuse?

6) Why does both astounding and poor artwork by popular artists receive more of a glowing response than good artwork by relative unknowns?

7) When did *caedes.net stop being an art community and become a school-playground?"

*Reference changed/edited from the original content found in the article.


I encourage all of you to visit the author's article page ... here.

And read more for yourself to see what and what you don't recognize occurring on our beloved site here.

And ask yourself ... what is the end result ... if these behaviours were to continue.


As well, and lastly ... 'critique' for me, took on some other dimensions.

It was not only about the 'good, bad and possible improvements'.

Came to understand and appreciate how in reading comments, wherein the commenter expressed the way that a piece touched them, influenced them ... could be added to the acceptable levels of 'critiques'.

Creating and posting work, where a dialogue of sorts is initiated/results between that of the viewer and artist ... is indeed a fruitful one.



Feel free to add your thoughts ... with one caveat ... play nice, please. Thank you.

me, again. right now i have 150 photographs by those on my friends list. should i feel guilty when i don't comment on each. i don't want people to feel ignored and so i am wondering if we should abolish the friends list, learn to check the new images, and comment only when we feel there's something to be said and when we have YIME to say it.

I wouldn't want to abolish the friend's list and why feel guilty if you don't get to comment on all of them? I know the feeling, but geez, there really is only so much time in a day. Folks understand this. I don't want to abolish the list, because I like to know where to find those people's posts without having to go to each gallery indiviually looking for them. The list is a time saver.

Gonna' chime in here ...*rings bell*

use my friends list as a notification only that someone who's work I enjoy seeing has been uploaded. I comment on those images <5% of the time.
I found that the stress of trying to comment on each image was eating my time & inflicting huge amounts of stress :) as well as guilt if not done as Jen mentioned above.
Plus, I didn't feel as though I had anything of value to offer via words on up to 14 images per week from the same person!
They know I admire their work or they wouldn't be on my list (at least that is my opinion!)
I agree with Cindy that it is a nice feature to find the newest post's quickly and easily with the list.

@Cindy, the mods spend most of their time on the site approving & uploading images, chasing down the rips & the rippers, rejecting CoC violations, moving/archiving images & checking for the frequent trolls that appear here.
They also monitor the threads for the not so friendly spam.
That doesn't include reading their own PM's ,responding, voting & other 'housekeeping" duties.:) *wipes brow*
Hope this helps explain why we don't see as many uploads from them as we would like to.....

As for a 'works in progress' gallery, I personally have considered all of my posts as works in progress. I am not under the umbrella of illusion that an image of mine could not be improved upon..if only made to be different/better with filters that I don't know about or a lovely frame.
I have always viewed caedes dot net as a place to learn, not as an Art Gallery where only 'oohs & aahs' were found.
(I am not opposed to the gallery either, so no darts...plueasse?? :)
I recently saw an image with 25 views, 20 d/l's a c-index of 47 and 1 comment that said "nice post,pretty colors here". The image appeared to have been taken with a cell phone..sort of like a spur of the moment "I saw it and I will shoot it no matter what" image.
What is the message that the artist has been given? The c-index isn't horrid (I have many way lower :(, the view d/l ratio is good, so where is the impetus for this artist to upload anything better? IMO, there isn't any. The validation is in place with 5 words, 1 comment.
And yes, I am going back when I post this to honor what I vowed to do above and that is critique.....gently :=)

OK, who's got the cookies? I feel the need for some immediate sustenance. Preference you ask?...any will do :=)

Shuffles in and leaves a plate of
jammie dodgers by way of transatlantic atonement.

"I solemnly swear to hereby cease all cookie monster activities on this here thread."

Shuffles out with fingers firmly crossed behind back.

ooh111.....my fav!!!!! Yum! Thanks Nigel ((((hug))))

Thank you Nigel ... they sure look yummy!!!

*sneaks a couple extra cookies while no one is watching*

This has been a great discussion. I expect it will have grown even more when I return from my holiday

Thought you may like a plate of ANZAC BISCUITS


If you like them the recipe and (very interesting) history is HERE

Bye for now :)

Wow, you take your eyes off a thread for a moment or two and suddenly you have an hour's worth of reading waiting for you. The fact that I did read it shows how thought provoking I think the discussion is... plus there's cookies:)

At the risk of raising your collective ire, I am slightly worried that the implementation of some of the stricter/more critical systems suggested above would be more of a hindrance than a help, being potentially quite devisive, intimidating to less confident artists and prohibitive to newer members.

Also, I feel compelled to ask, what if you really do love an image and can't find anything significantly wrong with it? Ok, so very few images are ever perfect and you can always find something which might need improving but often I feel that minor or technical imperfections are a) subjective and b) often actually contribute in a positive way to the overall look/feel/value of an image. After all, the thing that drew me to Caedes in the first place was the way it allows me to see the world through the eyes and lenses of others. If I constantly critisise these images based on my own concept of what makes a good image (which is an inevitability no matter how objective one tries to be) than doesn't this fundamentally undermine that idea? Also, sometimes I feel that, like people, it is often the imperfections in an image which give it character and uniqueness. Also, if I think an image is beautiful and it makes me feel happy, what's wrong with telling the artist that their image is beautiful and making them happy? My point is, it should be ok to give a positive, less critical review of an image, provided that you explain specifically what it is about that image that makes it so good. Pointing out what people are doing right so that they continue doing it is every bit as important as pointing out what they do wrong.

*****

Ok, so this is where I took a break to watch the Daily Show and the Colbert Report and totally forgot what point I was trying to make. I think I just thought that the weight had shifted too much to one side and was trying to balance it out... or something... I have no idea... I'm leaving some ANZAC biscuits and going to bed. That reminds me, for anyone who is feeling election withdrawal, don't forget that the Kiwi's go to the polls tomorrow, gripping stuff:)

*****
Note: I ended up posting this quite a while after I began writing it and in the meantime it seems Lyn had the same idea as me - great minds think alike. Also Lyn, I hope you're not offended by my above comment, it was meant in jest. For the benefit of our international friends who may be interested, New Zealand was the first nation to introduce women's suffrage (just pipped us at the post) and currently has a female Prime Minister. There's lots of other things I admire about their politics but my point is, New Zealand is one of the world's great democracies and their election should not be mocked (oh I'm going to be so embarrassed if I wake up on Sunday morning to discover their PM is a sheep:) Sorry Lyn, couldn't help myself, I really must go to bed before I end up having to apologise again.

Seems like I'm going to have to try some of these ANZAC biscuits! lol If NZ's PM is a sheep, I hope he's every bit as attractive as the one PatAndre posted yesterday! lol

I like your idea, Kelcey, about telling why you have positive impressions and observations about a post helping a person know what IS working. That's quite true.

Here is the food for thought:

"1) When was the last time you received a comment on an image, or your gallery that gave a reason why the commenter thought it was good or bad?

2) When did someone tell you how your work made them feel?

3) When did someone last try to explain the significance of your work or it's meaning?

4) When was the last time someone suggested improvements, or offered constructive criticism?

5) How ofen is constructive criticism followed by a barrage of abuse?

6) Why does both astounding and poor artwork by popular artists receive more of a glowing response than good artwork by relative unknowns?

7) When did *caedes.net stop being an art community and become a school-playground?"

*Reference changed/edited from the original content found in the article.


I encourage all of you to visit the author's article page ... here.

And read more for yourself to see what and what you don't recognize occurring on our beloved site here.

And ask yourself ... what is the end result ... if these behaviours were to continue.


As well, and lastly ... 'critique' for me, took on some other dimensions.

It was not only about the 'good, bad and possible improvements'.

Came to understand and appreciate how in reading comments, wherein the commenter expressed the way that a piece touched them, influenced them ... could be added to the acceptable levels of 'critiques'.

Creating and posting work, where a dialogue of sorts is initiated/results between that of the viewer and artist ... is indeed a fruitful one.

____________________
Again, ask 'yourself' these questions:

"What happens if I don't comment on every one of my friend's images?"
"What is motivating me to comment on everyone of my friend's images?"
"What am I actually 'saying' in the above instances when I do show up on a friend's image's page?"

No right or wrong answers. Simply an examination of motivation.

_______________________


@Kelcey:

"However, I'm trying more and more to remember how much constructive feedback has helped me and how much I appreciate it and that is encouraging me to post more thoughtful responses."

So, I am not sure now, after having read your last post to this discussion and taking into consideration your words quoted above from your first post, as to where you actually sit. You even give the impression, well no ... you outright state that you were playing devil's advocate to 'even the discussion out'.


@Cindy:

You edited some of your posts above?

Thank you. With respect to your posts of 6/11/08 23:43 & 7/11/08 0:07 ... much more palatable now to the flavour of this discussion. It has been, from the outset, a civil and productive one in my mind.

However, and on that latter note ... I do take offense with your original post. Dismissive and argumentative, and I really did not see you addressing the 'food for thought' in the way and how you presented your thoughts, initially.


"I find it discouraging to post. It seems that the vote depends on who likes you and how clean your monitor is right now."

Referencing only the C-Index as the barometer for how 'good' an image is ... makes a point in favour for change, in my humble opinion.

Change, as outlined and addressed by the thoughts, ideas, suggestions put forth by the contributors to this thread above.

"Thanks, Les. Now that's the kind of input for which I am looking! I'll keep an eye on that here on out because you were able to see what I was missing due to my own subjectivity."

These are Cindy's words in response to part of a preceding post of mine, wherein, I suggested ... and cutting to the chase ... examining the 'picture style(s)/options of her camera some.

I edited it out and sent it to her in a PM. One, because I thought that those thoughts were outside the purview of the ongoing discussion and might 'derail' things a tad ... and two, and being completely honest here ... I had the thought that it might appear somewhat retaliatory to some eyes.

It should be noted in her reply (PM) to me, that Cindy was most gracious and thankful, . She took no offense and paraphrasing her words here, 'You didn't say what you did to hurt me, why would I object to you placing those words publicly?' (Forgive me if this is not exactly a paraphrasing, it does capture the essence of our exchange though ... I believe.)


Again, quoting a section from one of my posts above ...

"There is, however in my mind, a rather apt old adage that may ... may, apply to the very root of this discussion. And it is this:

'You reap, what you sow.' "


"Please try to read what all the members have to contribute to this discussion without being defensive. Certainly, all of us, know more than any of us."


I agree.

And it would appear that the proverbial pot had boiled over some with your intial foray into this discussion. Happens. Nothing wrong with being passionate about a subject ... as most of 'us' are with respect to our beloved site. And as evidenced by the participation and time given to this discussion.

Seems like cooler heads are prevailing now. Thank you, once again.



And I doubt that any discussion with respect to change ... is going to be met with unanimous approval. That said, no one ... no one, is trying to dismantle the site completely and entirely and change into something none of us recognize. Not at all.



** Read..through..the..entire..thread ... before participating ... please.**


(/\ General statement, not directed at anyone in particular.)

I caught myself being reactive not that far up to one of Rich's posts. Wherein, he stated that it appeared a consensus was forming towards that of a 'two tier system'.

Might be wrong again, however, I think the point he was trying to make is that 'we' were in agreement, for the most part, that a button that indicated whether or not a member's words were either a comment or critique placed on author's image was a workable solution in addressing some of the issues raised.

I simply saw, 'two tier system' ... and reacted. Jumped in to quell any other notions that might arise, in that 'we' were working towards some sort of segregation on the site here.

I ... uh, missed his point. :o|

Lesson learned ... for me ... yet, again. Think before engaging one's appendages in a reply. Particularly ... 'in the heat of the moment'.



Soooooo ...

No one else prepared to take the 'oath'?

Comes down to, as so many have reiterated above ... to simply being more honest with our words and commenting in general. Losing the fear factor ... however that is viewed in your eyes ... reprisal, lack of confidence/knowledge ... whatever. And, committing time towards that end.


Adding in some of the 'good, bad and room for improvement stuff' ... will not leave anyone scratching their head when viewing their 'scores' ... only.

That is one of the other ... very real ... problems, as our site sits today, as I see it and in my humble opinion. That does need to be addressed.



A tangential aside:

Re: The "Friend's list".

And another question put out there as some more food for thought ...

"When was the last time you added someone to your 'friend's list'?"

"What motivated you to do so, and has your 'approach' to these latter additions changed any from that of your original list?"

Do the math.

Initial list comprises 20 names. These artists submit one or two a day, posts.

Add another artist's name ... and another ... and another ...

I'm impressed by the time and care being taken on this thread. By the mature attitudes, the generosity and the honest exchange of views. Thank you to all of you. I haven't taken part in discussions much before because, honestly, I have to face down too much aggression in my days at work to come here to Caedes seeking any more. This site is a refuge, and I'm grateful for that.

Les, I think we are influencing people to be more honest in their comments. I think the ripples are spreading, honestly. What do you think the chances are of some of the suggestions made here being taken further?

Just one more point I'd like to clarify yet again - Les is right, people need to read the thread. No-one is suggesting we need to leave wordy, technical, intellectual comments. If an image is good, say so. In one word, two words, a sentence or several. There's nothing wrong with saying positive things about a good image. But if it's bad, please don't say it's anything else. Be tactful. Be brief if you want to. Be encouraging. But give the poster a chance to grow - not a false belief that what he or she is uploading is good when it's not.

There. Plea from the heart. Be nice.

And in the spirit of sharing, growth and encouragement I just started a new thread, Photoshop-aholic. Sorry Les, am I allowed to advertise?

It isn't necessary to know what someone's camera is capable of in order to leave critique behind. It's not necessary to tell them technically how to achieve it. What *is* necessary is to have the eye that says "this might look better if.." or "I'd like to see this with...". They can ask you how to achieve it, and if you don't know, you can refer them to someone who might, or they can post a thread asking about it. Or they can go investigate on their own and do some research to learn from other tutorials or websites.

2 examples - 1) Back when I first started posting here, there was a young man by the name of CGImagery posting. He did a lot of landscapes (that I just checked and am sorry to see are gone) in 3D art programs. He was still learning and didn't know how to create a "shoreline" where his water would meet his land. To create the transparency at the water's edge, along with the white churning towards the lip. I didn't know how to do it either. Still don't in fact. But I *did* know that it was missing from the image. That I could tell him. It even became a constant joke between us when he'd post and I'd bust his chops and ask him where the shoreline was, and he'd tell me I was stuck on em. Then one day - he posted an image with a proper shoreline. Alleluia! I congratulated him, and we laughed, etc.

2) I work with licensed artwork for my day job, so everything I do, composed scenes, patterns, etc. has to be approved by the licensor. Sometimes I appreciate when the licensor tells me exactly how they want me to change something, but in other cases, I think their suggestions stink - and all I want them to tell me is what's *not* working so I can figure out a way to address it that works with the rest of the line I'm creating. Because I have a bigger fuller picture of the product that I'm putting out than they do, and what I'm trying to achieve. When I feel strongly enough about it, I'll go back and present my case to them, and show them an alternate version, and I'm rarely turned down.

This is what bringing a suggestion that lacks technical know-how brings - an opportunity for the artist to understand what may not be working, and find a way *themselves* to revise it, in a way that they as an artist feel comfortable with for their own personal style.

In my earlier comments... I suspect the context or meaning of what I was attempting to encourage might've been taken the wrong way. Or not, and I am now mistaken. Anywho.. if I might add this:

"I like this" "oooh, pretty" and "wow!" are all valid expressions of taste. Granted. Equally so, if not as pleasant, are "I don't like this" "it doesn't work for me, sorry" and "just how intoxicated were you when you posted this" ok, the last one was included as a bit of tongue-in-cheek humor.. sort of.

One need not be an art critic. But if, for example, you like something about an image.. be it CG, photography or whatever, why not mention that?

"Oh, those are nice colors. I love blue and orange" "that scene looks really busy. I feel like it's just drawing me right in" and.. so forth and so on.

Same thing for critiques. "hmm, kinda dark for my taste" "interesting subject, but the shot itself.. doesn't really do anything for me." (translation.. bores the hell out of me :P)

see? one need not be a museum curator, a reviewer with the NY Times, or.. Les.. (joke) in order to say something about an image, be it positive and affirming, or negative (not in terms of civility, but in terms of taste).

Hope this helps.

edit.. I was writing this between doing other things.. and then posted it. Just saw that Cat posted some thoughts in the interim.. which mine don't really correspond to.. not to be seen as ignoring what she said..

As for photography. It makes more sense to me to try and capture the best image possible in the camera so that minimal post work is necessary. To do that, one needs to be able to help folks with their photography skills. Sure, some don't know about the f-thingy, but if they see it often enough, it will make sense even if they never use a DSLR.

That is the kind of thing I was hoping to learn when I first came to this site. Sure, I know how to surf the net as well as anyone else and can find answers to my questions about photography in books and articles, but it helps to know how someone achieved a certain image based on the shutter speed, aperture and ISO they used and it is helpful to determine if you might like a certain camera or lens when you see the kinds of images that others post with them, so you get a sense of what you find appealing and what would help you in your own photography. That's why I like to see the EXIF informati I don't always post it either, but it is helpful.

Personally, I always find that LynEve seems to be dead on in her suggestions as to what makes things go and what makes things work. She's a pretty smart lady and has a lot to offer. See above.

Cindy, please understand - I am not saying that you should *not* post the technical steps if you know how to do them. Sure it helps, it's a great place to learn here. All I am saying that not knowing how to do it shouldn't prevent anyone from offering an opinion, or make them feel that their opinion isn't valid or worthy. Such an opinion which is based on a personal feeling or understanding rather than an ability to explain technically is just as important, that's all.

I understand.

Here's a question that intrigues me then. How can one possibly critique a 3-D landscape, a fractal, a photo, or a graphic using the same criteria? Or can one?

Cat, that's some good advice. We should all feel free to offer our opinions of the images we see. We vote, don't we? If we can vote, then why not critique? If someone can't define why they don't like an image, then they can always leave a critique like, "The colors are really vibrant, but something about this image leaves me cold. I can't put my finger on it."

Me, I'm always pleased to get critiques like that. I may be forgiven if I follow up the critique with questions to help me better understand the critique, but you won't catch me rejecting criticism, unless it's just mean. If you don't think your critique is mean, then it probably isn't. If you have an evil smirk while you're posting your critique, then I may not follow up your comment. I've only received three of those in the four years I've been posting on this site.

"How can one possibly critique a 3-D landscape, a fractal, a photo, or a graphic using the same criteria? Or can one?"

Why not?

You like it, or you don't. And in either case, there's reasons why. Color, shape, composition, etc are all qualities or aspects of the different media you've mentioned.

And if I might strongly request, kindly refrain from editing your posts, especially when they're directed at someone (like your last one was to me).

You know, I said nothing bad about you in that one sentence, Rob. In fact, I was agreeing with what you had just said. I began to think it wasn't germain to the rest of what I wanted to say, so I removed that one line. That's why edit buttons are provided.

Moving this thread back to it's original track...

I've received some brutally honest critiques on a few recent images. While I might encourage the posters to adopt a more constructive method of conveying their thoughts, the honesty was, to a degree, refreshing.

I think, having a certain comfort level with our images does cause an amount of, for lack of a better term.. artistic laziness. If all everyone does is say "oh that's nice", I put forth the thought that it hampers the learning process.

Someone here once said something to the effect of "just because your friends and family say your work is great, doesn't make it so". I've seen, just as I'm sure most of you have, an image which portrayed a pleasant enough subject, but wasn't all that great in and of itself. A poorly shot photo of a great looking subject is, I'm afraid, what's called a snapshot. In past posts, I've called for "self-critiquing" prior to posting. Perhaps some more emphasis could be placed on that?

self critiquing would be difficult since if you were going to upload a photograph you must have thought it worthy. you would have done what you THOUGHT you needed to do. it is difficult to be truly objective about something we create.
when discussing voting and commenting i'd like to add that for me the voting is kind of a gut thing. i take a good hard look at the entirety of the particular shot. having to comment about the specifics would be difficult to me. and i might add that i'd never say, "it just doesn't do anything for me". my vote would indicate my feelings. when the issue is lighting and/or cropping, etc. i am happy to SUGGEST a possible remedy.
fractals are great designs. they work beautifully as desktops. i haven't a clue as to how to make one. when i judge one it has to be look and react. a comment of how to improve it would be impossible for me,a non fractal producer,

Suppose if you will, someone requested to see some of your work, and wanted to display it in their home. Now let's say, this person was someone you had the highest regard or held in the highest esteem. A dignitary, perhaps. You mean to tell me there'd be no selective process where you didn't have a thought like "hmm, maybe this one's not good enough. No, not this one. Ah yes, this one will be best"?

An exaggeration, to be sure. But the point is, self-critiquing is certainly possible. For every shot I've ever posted here, I've got dozens I haven't. And won't. To me, they didn't "make the cut". So I enjoy them for myself on my computer, not for their artistic value, but for their sentimental, or instructional value.

does that make sense?

Let me strive for the middle ground hee. Self-critique is no doubt important, yet it is also a measurement of experience and skill. When I first posted New Friends I thought it was the greatest post in the world. Then, along came some of the very people participating in this thread and started pointing things out like the man in the backround, the reflection, the muted colors of the Tiger...and someone was kind enough to rework it into this. One would HOPE that as people develop there skills they would do more self-critiquing, but it certainly takes time.

Rob - not discounting what you are saying...but did you ever get a Christmas present that was absolutely terrible? I bet the giver didn't do it on purpose or think it was terrible...

That's what critique is all about imho...making sure that I don't keep giving you all lousy 'presents'...

@ Nigel:

"What do you think the chances are of some of the suggestions made here being taken further?"

Ok, some conjecture here on my part:

I do think that indeed 'things' are being reviewed. The extent of, and what is being considered to be put into place? I don't have concrete answers to those questions.

I do believe that with threads such as this one here; wherein, suggestions, thoughts, ideas put forth to remedy whatever 'ills' ... do indeed catch the 'big eye in the sky's' attention.


What I am thinking of doing ... once the dust settles, is going back and sifting through the posts, gleaning the suggestions ... and summarizing them. Then, posting them to the thread. Along the lines, 'ok ... here are the problems noted ... here are the suggested fixes'.


'Your' time invested is not for nought, to be clear.


And since we are sort of, kind of on a point that I think would flesh out the picture some ... 'we' really need to understand that this is still very much a smaller community.

One person at the controls, where coding and major changes are concerned. (John; aka muggsy alluded to this simple fact of Caedesian life some posts back.)

And someone, who in my opinion ... shows tremendous foresight (most of the time :oP) and gives of his time so graciously to all of us.

Not to make mention of ... his 'stick-to-itedness' and resilence (go to the front page, select "All News" - at the bottom of the page ... and take a trip down Caedesian Memory Lane ... it's a humbling read and journey).


Photoshop-aholic? Wonderful idea, Nigel.

Don't underestimate the 'reach' of that thread, using only activity and posts to ... as a barometer as to how informative and helpful it is being deemed. Many read, digest ... get enthused ... and rush off to try some new 'stuff' ... and simply forget to say thanks.


Re: The Self-Critiquing Stuff. Or, in other words perhaps ... 'Think Before You Post'.

This medium of words alone is difficult, isn't it? To convey one's thoughts with little room for misinterpretation. Just a general comment, really, and I suppose rather self-evident.

I believe, that as a result of everyone's tactfulness ... no names are being named. Insofar, as the 'culprits' of the 'negative' activities that have been noted and are being addressed.

So ...

If the shoe doesn't fit ... don't take the remarks personally.

Do give some thought, though, to the points have been brought up. It may be the case, that 'you' were simply unawares. Or, perhaps ... didn't or haven't taken a look down the road some. Participating in this thread indeed tells me that you care about the site's future as well. No worries, there. :o)


Change can have it's origins ... from one of two sides. The administrative side could impose a moratorium on 'snapshots' ... once again. Or, the membership at large could do some self-policing with respect to the quality of uploads. (<--- Addressing only the 'quality of uploads' issue here and what is to follow).

Jen makes a valid point, in that most ... most of us, post works/images as 'we' feel them to be post-worthy.

Rob and Rich's words expound a bit on that particular discussion to consider some differing viewpoints as to where this behaviour has it's roots.

A simple check and balance to be performed by 'you', and one that has been suggested before ... is to place the image under consideration for posting ... onto your own desktop for a few days. I really find that this simple step serves to distance the emotional attachment to 'our' work. And allow our own subjectivity to come to the forefront.


What makes caedes.net what is?

Central question to allllll of the above. As I don't think that 'we' wish to create a sterile environment at the sake and offering to the altar of image perfection gods.

This is indeed 'my soft place to fall', echoing some of Nigel's words and thoughts.

Moving forward and still retaining the community aspect is not to be dismissed.


Getting back to the subject at hand ...

If the membership proffered considered words on images ... that, in and of itself would work towards raising the standards of quality. If the membership at large saw continuous and acceptable instances and examples of 'how to critique' tactfully, politely and informatively ... think that that would trickle down. And work toward alleviating some of the reticence some may feel.


Is the membership ready and willing to bear with a tightening-up in reference to image quality standards?

Which really begs the question ... where should the onus be placed. Membership, or ... administratively.

Those involved on this 'side of the fence' in shaping policy ... do so, to serve the greater good. 'You' would be hard-pressed to find a more self'les's group of volunteers.


Reiterating, the creation of this thread was my attempt to shed some light and search for some solutions. As a member.


And on that last note ... I think it is time that 'we' hold ourselves accountable and take some ownership ... or more, towards the ends of making this a greater site than it already is and getting back, more so ... or at least balancing out the scale where social interaction and the growth and learning stuff are concerned.


Stagnating artistically ... doing the same things, day in and day out ... staying rooted in the same spot ... is anathema to one's creativity. At some point ... it will cease to be fun for 'you'. My own personal opinion.

Wouldn't it wonderful to know that 'you' could try some new 'stuff' out ... and get some constructive feedback? All of the time? I am of the opinion when I place some 'considered words' ... right or wrong ... the recipient is aware of my efforts. They know that I 'cared' enough to give of my time. And can take what they will from any suggestions towards improvements, if made and applicable.


Right, which leads to my last point ... for now >:oD ... Cindy's suggestion to include the EXIF data in an image's accompanying narrative or to have a place to note it. Good good idea. Might serve to accelerate movement along the learning curve(s). Annnnnd ... open up some additional and productive dialogue between the artist(s) and viewers.

It is important to remember that all great world ideas started in some home neighbourhood. A small community yes, but one of vitality and garnished with the spirit of improvement. It has been a joy to watch the ebb and flow in this thread and am sure the process for positive change has already begun to grow...

Hello again,

Les: So, I am not sure now, after having read your last post to this discussion and taking into consideration your words quoted above from your first post, as to where you actually sit. You even give the impression, well no ... you outright state that you were playing devil's advocate to 'even the discussion out'.

I do try not to be such a confusing person, I more often than not fail dismally at that task though. However, I will try to clarify my position. While I personally do indeed appreciate constrcuctive critisism, as eviently do many others, I guess I was just sharing a couple of thoughts I was having about the discussion in general. Their being that a) positive comment without any criticism seemed too easily dismissed as having no value and b) I was not so fussed on what I saw as potentially prohibitive measures, i.e. rating someone's comment on your pic. It's scary enough for many people working up the courage to comment (I was hanging around here for about a year before I did so) without being assessed on your performance. I do think people should be free to say whatever they want in a comment (within reason of course) and not be forced to provide a critique which they may not feel comfortable giving. I think the way to go is to encourage people to provide more thoughtful feedback through general interaction on the site, i.e. conversations on the boards such as this one and leading by example in our own comments. In a nutshell I favour a more organic grass roots movement over a stricter top down directive. Am I making any sense?

I think you yourself said it best:

... I don't think that 'we' wish to create a sterile environment at the sake and offering to the altar of image perfection gods.

... This is indeed 'my soft place to fall', echoing some of Nigel's words and thoughts.

... Moving forward and still retaining the community aspect is not to be dismissed.

These would be my sentiments, expressed far more eloquently than my own dribble.

Aww Kelcey I'd never say your phrasing was dribble. Thanks for the thoughts above, I can see how getting your critiques rated might be intimidating.

If I can just clarify where the idea came from, there was a suggestion that you could have two buttons to respond to an image - 'comment' or 'critique'. Up to you which you choose.

I pointed out the system on Photosig as a discussion point, which works in this way. There, you can upload one photo every three days (I think) by default. If you choose to leave critiques rather than comments on other people's photos, those get rated by other users. For each three critiques rated 'useful' by three other users you get to upload an extra photo. Alternatively you can just post comments, which aren't rated. I'm not proposing it gets adopted here, but the principle is an interesting one and there are elements that we might want to think about?

With regard to Nigels last paragraph above ... a rating system of ones comments seems somewhat over the top. I can't help but feel the medicine might wind up being more harmful than the disease it's meant to cure. We already have a rating system designed to grade an image ... a system that is considered by many members to be seriously flawed as it now stands. Having comments rated or voted on ... if you will, by "others" strikes me as going down a similar road. Take no offense Nigel, you've put forward a constructive suggestion. I don't have a constructive suggestion to the problem at the moment ... I seem to be more of a "wet blanket"

What if we had a sort of Caedes Citizen of the month award, similar to the artist of the month profile, whereby people nominate someone that they think has been really helpful and contributed to the well-being of the site as a whole. I don't know what the prize would be but it's purpose would be twofold: firstly, showing appreciation to people who give their time and thoughtfulness to make this site a better place and secondly, giving an example to all who visit the site of the sort of participation that we value and would like to encourage. Maybe it's a lame idea, I don't know but feel free to take it and add/twist/edit/improve on it all you like:)

~~oops double post~~

Kelcey...a quick suggestion? Don't put yourself down so readily ("Maybe it's a lame idea, I don't know but"...), you have added a great deal to this conversation with your perspective. There are no right or wrong answers here, anly a sharing of thoughts and ideas, and yours are as valid as anyone elses.

As has been mentioned before I really appreciate personally the fact that everyone has been civil and polite in their comments.

I'm not quite sold either on the idea of rating comments either, to be honest, although there is certainly a glimmer of an idea perking here. I like the idea of pro-actively choosing between comment or critique. Instead of rating each and every critique that came through, what if there were just a single button that could be pushed at the posters discretion which said "Really Helpful" or something to that effect. Then if any member crossed a pre-determined threshhold of "Really Helpful" critiques they were rewarded with an extra post the next day, or the next week or every other day for the next 30 days...however it was decided to be set up. It encourages good critiques, doesn't intimidate people who think that their every critique will be rated, and gives people the option of leaving a comment or a critique. It is more pro-active than just using discussions like this one (which is no way intended to de-value this discussion) to encourage people, while wtill leaving the level of involvement to the individual user.

Of course that assumes the membership can police themselves on this also. It wouldn't be fair me to click Really Helpful everytime Rob, just for example, leaves me a critique just because he was one of the first people to welcome me here and we have a good history.

Thanx again to everyone that is participating, I find the dialouge occuring here quite fascinating!

I hope this won't be seen as a shameless plug, not what I intend. My latest may be germain to the conversation. I was pretty happy with it, it got lots of nice comments which are greatly appreciated, and it currently sits at a 44 in the c-index. I have no idea why. Not interesting enough? To much Urban Clutter? Not sharp enough? No clue.

Please don't use this thread to respond with comments about the post itself, that is not my intent...I just thought it was a good example of nice comments, lower score, and no idea why.

I think Rich's suggestion is the more "middle ground" idea I was looking for but couldn't quite articulate, there's some good idea in there, much like the rest of this thread. Btw, thanks for the self esteem pep talk:)

Hells teeth, ive only been away 12 days and this has turned into a series :-) will grab oreos, cookies and anything else on offer and read through this once ive recovered from jetlag and 24 hours travelling with no sleep! heheh
oh yay i had a good time.

A few comments having scanned this lengthy epistle. I try to leave critical comments if a picture deserves them, although it is hard when coming after 20 "oh wow, what a picture" comments to point out that the horizon is not level. I don't comment on my friends all the time, especially if they keep posting the same type of pictures all the time, but then these people are often removed from my list. I often add new friends if I see a picture that takes my eye, especially if it is unusual of different. I dislike people who post 2 pictures a day when they don't really have anything to post. I think we should all be limited to a maximum of 20 pictures outside the main galleries so they we have to chose which are our best. I hate the CI system for all the reasons stated above, and especially as it is not used to determine permanence in the main galleries. I suspect visitors are bored with the sameness of pictures on this site, caused by this very CI system. Almost every unusual or different picture I see gets hammered in the CI as do my own experiments and to be honest it gets disheartening and only when you get a picture into the main galleries do you get a lift. So, I will try to leave comments appropriate to the picture, I know my CI will drop because it has in the past and will again, I will try not to let that get me down, and I thank the real friends I have in Caedes that do comment on my efforts and it is because of them that I have improved to the point of getting pictures into the permanent galleries here, and on other sites. So I suppose it is all worth it.

Comment fairly, comment selectively, praise only when due.

Is the kettle boiled ? relax man I've bought some more cookies for us all to share. :o)

I agree with Chris / crysophilax comment above a lot Les.
Also does anyone else out there feel unhappy that a few of our most popular artists receive only praise in their long gallery upload comment columns, & why is it that the same members always get hi C-index points on their uploads even if the work is merely adequate ? I feel unable to name names but there's a list trust me. :o)

I shall continue to be honest, funny, praise or be critical in all my personal comments, but shall try to mix a bit more, & as I have limited time my friends will receive even less comments.
I've added this topic to my signature like a few other members !

anne aka colocolor without links...

Hey gang, wow. Some great discussion going on here. I didn't read through all of it - mamaduseldorfenhobelschneider I'd be here for decades. But have to throw in my pittance along with a helping of humble pie. Rich sent me a link to this thread based on my comments added to an old thread on - oh Lord please give me my mind back - *Caedes on maintaining quality I think.

You all have some wonderful suggestions! May they be put to use post haste...

I was thinking, what if Caedes Man could create a simple checklist for comments and voting attached to every image uploaded? Okay, again, I'm not good at organizing things but the Almighty Caedes created this universe, surely He can refine it. I'm thinking along the lines of, when one opens an image they would see a list below it with constructive choices (these could be radio buttons or check boxes) along with a text section for specific comments. It would make sense that the rules of art/photography critique should be posted prominently on the voting pages (I reiterate what I said on the other thread - I think their should be different voting pages for art and photography as the grading scales are quite different and the people who have the knowledge and understanding to fairly judge one or the other are different animals in most cases,) for quick reference for those who don't quite get it.

Bottom line for me kids, I've had enough threading. I can't even see the eye of the needle any longer and my eyes came here to see and post images. We can talk til we're blue in the face when we could better be spending our time with imagery, yeah? I say, to those who critique with valuable input, kudos. To those who don't, might as well save the message space for those who do. I promise to share my gut reactions to all your images and I further promise to be gentle and tactful but always honest. Let's get this show on the road and lead the way, all the while praying others will follow the example.

One thing to keep in mind about those who give great comments to "popular" artists, whether deserved or not. Beauty is, as they say, in the eye of the beholder. We're not here to judge one anothers coments, we're here to enjoy and judge one another's submissions of art and photos. I don't spend much time reading what others say about any image or creative piece but I care very much what is said about mine for the sake of improvement and what I say about others for the same reason. We're only accountable for our own actions and words. This is not the borg...

I for one am going to pay particular attention to non-evaluators...rolls with laughter, humble pie spilling everywhere...

Love you all gigabytes. Go make some pretty images. anne :-)

I'd like to put forth two of my own images, as a precautionary tale of what can happen when someone forgets to self-critique.

I hadn't posted anything in a while, and was driving home, saw a sunset I just had to shoot.

I got a few nice comments on them, but someone discretely sent me a PM and had some very polite, and considerate words of disapproval. Upon re-examination, I saw this person was indeed correct.

The relevance here, at this thread, wasn't lost on me. Nor were some words which were sent to me, that I had written, and served to inspire someone.

"A poorly shot photo of a great looking subject is, I'm afraid, what's called a snapshot."

Oops. Someone pass me the salt and pepper, please. :o(

Anyhoo, here's the two shots I'd posted:

bad

worse

Friends don't let friends post crappy pictures :P

So, be friends to one another.

Rob. Bad snapshots of a nice scene they may be, but they scored higher or equal to most of my last 12 postings. So what does that tell me?

They were voted on by some very interesting people ;-)

Well, critique may not, in fact, be dead after all.

This thread, however?

:oP

Just kidding.


Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts. Some more shame'les's promotion for giving of 'your' time:

Cindy aka cynlee

Sherree; aka danika

Reg; aka regmar

Chris; aka crysophilax

Anne; aka colocolor

:o)

I have been away for a while but I did bring you back Some Refreshments, sneaked past customs :)

Enjoy, you deserve it :)

I declare this thread ... dead.

Now, everyone ... shoo!!

(*hovers protectively over HIS 'refreshments'*)

:oD

!!!!!!! What happened - no picture on the link

SOMEONE ate them ALL !!

http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0467xk2.jpg

Link works fine, Lyn.

Too well, with respect to some drooling opinions. :oD

Imageshack has changed things a tad in terms of their pages' presentations. Noticed that a short time back. Might be some server issues with them that you are experiencing. Or ... clear your browser's temp files cache.

Its ok -- it works now, just a temporary glitch.
Unless you hid them :) :)

Munchmunchmunchmunch

~~Enters the thread with a lion-tamers whip and glares threatingly at Les, while cracking said whip within inches of his head~~

"Excuse me, Les, may I have one of the cookies Lyn was kind enough to bring, please?"

1) There is obviously a concern at some higher level about both maintaining quality and improving critiques and the hints abound that major changes are coming.

2) It has been stated the the members have not done a very good job of self-policing the qaulity of the uploads, and there are not enough critiques vs. comments.

3) The pro-active button to leave either a comment or a critique is a good start...but that's all it is, is a start. If it's left at that I don't believe it will change the messages that are left, just change the catagory. In other words, if my average post gets 8 messages, and 6 are comments and 2 are critiques, adding the buttons will allow me to see at a glance that I have 6 comments and 2 critiques. I don't believe just having the buttons will change behavior.

4) Nigel hit the nail on the head with the suggestion that if x number of people rate a comment/critique as helpful they get a bonus upload.

5) While I understand it is an entirely different thread, maintaining quality is inexoribly tied to this discussion.

Therefore:

A) Limit the number of uploads. Non-cadre members get 1 every other day. Cadre members get 1 every day. Eliminate the excemption to the VB for Cadre members (thanx LynEve). This reduces the work load on the mods, makes people think about what they are uploading and makes the number of posts you can view AND CRITIQUE more reasonable.

B) Implement the 2 button idea so that people can pro-actively choose between critique and comment.

C) Implement Nigels idea of bonus downloads for people who's comments/critiques are rated as helpful.

I don't see the down side. It is not exclusionary. It does not discourage or limit the social side of the site. It does not discouage newbies from coming, joining, learning. It does not discourage those who just wish to leave comments - or perhaps just view without commenting at all.

1) 2) 3) bla bla bla B) C)

A) Limit the number of uploads. Non-cadre members get 1 every other day................... isn't that being unnecessary mean Rich / rp64.

Have you forgotten artists are contributing to Caedes with their wallpaper images already .. Is *caedes strapped for cash ? .. Is the site in a state of financial collapse ?

No I don't think so :o) even if it were true why should I a contributing artist be pressurised to pay ? especially when Joe public can download unlimited #s of hi def images without any payment at all ?
Perhaps you could please explain this one for me Rich as I sit in my unheated front room again this winter. :o(

Hey Phil,

If I may, in reference to at least part of your query on the reducing uploads aspect ...

It has been put forth that by limiting the number of uploads, 'we' would, with our numbers and options per day restricted somewhat ... choose one out of two as it stands in light of Rich's ideas for the cadre. And similarly and respectively, for non-cadre members. Implementing a measure, I suppose, of some self-policing on image uploads.

And some are of the opinion that to produce two quality images a day ... to upload ... is a bit of stretch. As 'we' are, for the most part ... enthusiasts and not professionals.

Personally, and without commenting on anything beyond this ... I find two a day extremely generous. And a tad unlikely that most of us could produce that quantity and quality of 'art' on a regular and ongoing and consistent basis.

Work, family and other things have a hand on the clock as well.

In light of just the above ... lil' more palatable for you?

And it need not be, X per day. It could be X per time period. So, two a day would not be out of the realm of possibility. On average though, for whatever the decided and relevant time period ... one per day.


Perhaps, you can explain your words that follow. And I quote from your post above;

"... even if it were true why should I a contributing artist be pressurised to pay ? when Joe public can download unlimited #s of hi def images without any payment at all ?"


/\ Need some context for those words, Phil.

To my eyes and mind you are introducing elements into the discussion ... from, well ... I am not sure.


As to your personal living situation ...

Any wood about? Furniture, floors, perhaps?

/\ And yes, I am joking in the above. Sorry to hear that you are not able to weather the weather well. Sincerely.

Just a thought - some upload 2 images per day, others 2 per year - surely it balances out in the long run?

From the front page - 1606 regular members - 96 new images today. It is not as though every member is uploading the maximum allowed - if that were so then the site would be in trouble! From observation the number of daily uploads appears to have reduced.

I honestly believe that those who are able and choose to leave helpful critiques will continue to do so and no amount of reward, encouragement or regulation will change the ways of others.

I think it has been mentioned before that part of the charm of this site which keeps members coming back is the ability to use it for their own enjoyment and skill improvement in an individual way.
To encourage helpful critiquing is a good thing, I have no doubt of that, but to make it mandatory is self-defeating as it is just as impossible for some people to provide expertise as it is for some to provide quality images. Both improve with observation,participation and communication. Communication can be a single word comment or a page load of technical advice - it all counts.

I simply want to continue being able to upload 1 image every 20 hours as an Artist Les.
It would be constrictive to Artists if they were limited to 1 upload every other day as Rich suggests.

I thought this was a thread about critique that's all this new talk about limiting uploads ?

@ Phil:

Ok, gotta back up the proverbial truck here somewhat.

Context is indeed important.


The suggestions and ideas that have been presented, usually have their origins with an element or facet that relates back to the idea of critiquing images.

Really, really ... really ... need to grab yourselves a cuppa ... and digest the discussion thread and posts, in their entirety.

Please do so, and you will see how the pieces of the puzzle fit together.

If not, then feel free to ask for clarifications.


@Lyn:

Lyn. Lyn ... Lyn. I feel I can call you that ... 'cause it's your name. Or one of, anyways. :oD

A couple of things.

"I honestly believe that those who are able and choose to leave helpful critiques will continue to do so and no amount of reward, encouragement or regulation will change the ways of others."

So, if I may summarize your thoughts ... you don't perceive any problems on the site with regards to the premise of this discussion?


"... but to make it mandatory ..."

Could you point out where it is mentioned as being mandatory for me?

Thanx Les, for jumping in.

Phil, my thoughts were certainly not meant to antogonize anyone. Context is everything. There is no intent to 'force' anyone to pay for the priviledge of uploading or deprive anyone of heat in order to join caedes. Right now it is one post every 20 hours for artists, 2 for cadre members. I proposed halfing it for everyone. To Lyn's point about it balancing in the long run - certainly a valid consideration...but it can be looked at the other way to. 1606 members, 93 new images...by doing the math how many people would really notice the difference? Phil, you've been a member for a little over a year and have about 190 posts. 365 days to the year. Works out to about 1 every other day. The change wouldn't even affect you. The change wouldn't affect the vast majority of artists that post here. As Les points out it could also be some sort of an average.

And to follow up on Les's point - I don't believe I made it mandatory to comment OR critique on anyones work...in fact I made sure NOT to exlcude people who don't feel comfortable doing so. I simply suggested a bonus post for those that do take the time to post comments OR critiques that others percieve as particularily useful.

Lastly, I've only been a member here for 10 months and I don't want to be precieved as the new kid on the block who is coming in and trying to change everything. I am well aware of the debt of thanx I owe to those that came long before me and made this site what it it today. If not a darn thing changes from all of these discussions I will remain a member here, happily pay my three bucks to be a cadre member, and continue to try and better myself as an artist, and to do whatever I can to try and improve the site. The question was put forth in public thread and I attempted to offer an answer.

Admitedly my answer was also in part inspired by a different thread that *caedes himself started. I suppose my thoughts could have just as easily been posted there, but I think the 2 points are intermingled to some degree.

No, I was not suggesting that anyone had specifically said it should be mandatory so I can not point to a specific statement. I was trying to get across that I don't think it would be a workable idea:)but it seems to be the general consensus that critiquing should be a major part of the site - in a perfect world it would be but none of us are perfect :)I apologise for the misunderstanding.

You can call me anything you like Les (within reason:) ) and I am not of the opinion that there are no problems with regard to the premise of this discussion but I do feel that to a certain extent the already converted are being preached to and it is a case of you can lead a horse to water but you can not force it to drink. Those who do involve themselves with critiquing in an acceptable manner are to be applauded and encouraged, they do a fine job.
Each to his/her abilities and strengths.

It is a great site and anything suggested or done to improve it in any way I am all in favour of.
As for the numbers, I may not be correct but I think the average number of daily uploads when I first joined was 150 or thereabouts.

Having been a member of this site for four years I can say with absolute certainty that no one can produce a quality work of art fourteen times EVERY week. Limiting the upload quantities is an attempt to make people look at those two images and say, "I can only upload one of these. Which one is better?"

The problem is that so many people upload multiple versions of the same image or similar images, and expect the people here at caedes.net to be their discriminator instead of doing it themselves.

Limiting the number of uploads would force people to be their own editors, thus improving the overall quality of the galleries.

But - won't they just upload the lesser one the next time?
I can see the point about multiple versions of the same image, but taken overall the people who produce substandard images will still post substandard images and vice versa. They will just post one instead of two and the proportion of good and bad will still be the same, there will just be fewer of each.
I am not opposed to decreasing the allowable uploads but I do not think it will necessarily lead to an improvement in quality.

Many of us can not produce 14 works of art every year let alone every week,and most of us will never produce one but isn't this is a wallpaper site and a place to learn - not an exclusive gallery for experts ?
If only works of art were upoloaded there would be very few uploads at all.

LOL at Lyn ("Many of us can not produce 14 works of art every year let alone every week"), good one, I'm certainly in that catagory!

Lets play number games gain. I agree Lyn that 92 uploads could be lower than usual, perhaps because of the Hooliday here in the States. Lets just say the average number per day is 150. 150 x 365 = 59820. Divided by 1606 members = roughly 36 uploads per member. To look at it another way, if the average person uploaded 2 per day every day we would all have 730 pictures per year in their galleries. I could be wrong, but i doubt many of us do. I suspect the average member wouldn't notice much of a difference. I agree with Regmar.

As to wouldn't they just upload an inferior one the next time. I suspect Regmar was referring to the handful o individuals who do take advantage of the maximum number of uploads available, sometimes at the expense of quality. Again, I suspect the average member wouldn't even notice the difference.

I do like Les's idea of an average - say someone just came back from vacation (hope you had a nice time, Lyn!) and has a bunch they want to post - have at it...it will balance in the wash.

Once again, I agree I am mixing threads here and getting into a discussion about quality not just critique...but with fewer downloads coming in every day it gives me more time to leave thoughtful comments/critiques, welcome new members, and spend more time in the VB, which ties back into this thread.

"But - won't they just upload the lesser one the next time?"

Not necessarily. I think that in the executive decision made as to which to upload of say, two ... the one that falls to the wayside would be addressed by the artist as to how to improve it ... and eliminate the questions as to the 'why', in one's mind ... it didn't get out of the gate in the first place.

Lyn, your points are well taken.

A question, if I may?

When I joined the site some years back now ... it was a year plus, before I uploaded my first image. I was intimidated a tad, having viewed the quality of work present ... and could not see uploading something just to get on the map, so to speak.

Anomalous artist personality's aside for a moment ... I am of the opinion that that 'barrier to (posting) entry' ... has slipped some.

If the pages of our beloved site were filled with Paul Gerritsen, Kristof and the like's works only ... and only ... don't you think you, yourself, would employ a bit more posting discretion?

Well, ok ... maybe not you. And by that I mean, I believe you do exercise some control. At times. We won't make mention of your Tiera-Zon experiments ... wherein, in less than 24 hours of requesting comment ... you did state you were holding back on another, only to post it almost in the same breath.

Sorry, for being brunt and frank in my above words. Trying to illustrate the pertinent points at this juncture.

Reg hit the proverbial nail on the head with his words here;

"The problem is that so many people upload multiple versions of the same image or similar images, and expect the people here at caedes.net to be their discriminator instead of doing it themselves."

Add in that if critiques flowed a bit more, the 'artist' would have some feedback and food for thought, as to which image to upload and not simply put it out there and let the viewing audience be the decider.

"If only works of art were upoloaded there would be very few uploads at all."

Wellllll ... would you prefer to look at one piece of art? Or, hundreds of just ok stuff?

Back to the critique thing.

Giving an Image Review.

A lot ... a lot, of foresight and aforethought has gone into making this site what it is.

'Critique' is not a four letter word. Again, as I have in the past ... I offer up my own profile page of replies to commentaries placed as evidence that the words contained in the link above, ring true.

In particular, these words here;

"Don't be afraid of hurting someone's feelings. As long as your review is mature and polite most people will love your attention."


Refreshments are looking a bit skint at the moment ... I blame ... THAT guy.

(*points in mirror*)

(*takes notice of a few vague shadowy figures lurking in the background with chocolate and cookie crumb covered mugs*)

:oP

Les, I know your comment was directed at Lyn, but to throw my two cents worth in, I posted almost immediately because I was looking for a place to post what I thought was a pretty good pic and get some feedback. Having been warmly welcomed I went through a phase where I posted for the sake of posting. Many of those have now been removed from gallery, because I am the first to admit they weren't very good.

~~And the peanut gallery shouts "what makes you think the ones still there are any good?" Yeah, yeah thanx for the support guys!~~

Lyn, point is, I think many people go through that phase. Had I been limited to a post a day or a post every other day I would have slowed down and really looked at what I was posting.

Again, the elemental math - being a cadre member or not you are still talking about being able to post between 183 and 365 times a year...that's a pretty significant number, far more than most members even get close to I bet!

A note about vacation pictures here. Without commenting on the "snapshottery" of some people's vacation photos (as our dear keifer once said, "snapshottery with winds gusting to 125 mph") I'll say that when I return from a photography trip I normally upload the resulting photos over a period of six months or so. I do so, because I spend at least two days poring over and enhancing most of the images, then another day thinking about and crafting the text that will go along with it. In fact I just did the company portraits for my company, and after an hour of photography I spent two weeks fixing the images.

I don't say this, so people will think I'm some sort of Vermeer, but rather so people will realize that if you want to express yourself clearly, it takes time and concentration. When you upload your images without spending time on them in post-production, you are doing a dis-service to yourself, your art, and your audience.

Les, you said . . "Well, ok ... maybe not you. And by that I mean, I believe you do exercise some control. At times. We won't make mention of your Tiera-Zon experiments ... wherein, in less than 24 hours of requesting comment ... you did state you were holding back on another, only to post it almost in the same breath."


Methinks it is time for me to leave this discussion. Your point is taken Les but I do find the example used is a bit extreme and slightly unfair.

I DO employ discretion and a great deal of time, often hours, on each post and I regret that that is not apparent from my efforts.
I shall follow this with interest but my skin it too thin for this.

Lyn in reference to your point about uploading the inferior photo later and the bad to good ration being the same - I must most thoroughly disagree.

I have heard versions of these comments from various people during conversations both on threads and in pm's about the 2 a day uploading:

"I need to get in my 2 today, so I'll talk to you later"
"Well I'm uploading 2 so I can get feedback faster"
"Oh, I just like sharing my images with my friends, I don't care if it's perfect"

What I take away from this is that the people who are uploading 2 a day, either feel that the 2 is something they HAVE to meet either for sharing goals, or learning goals. Which means that whatever self-editing they may be doing, they are not doing enough.

The good to bad ration WILL change, because the people who are truly evaluating and uploading *only* their best and continuing to improve are more selective, and do not upload every day much less 2 a day. Imposing a stricter limit won't affect those people at all if done correctly - as in "5 for the week, go ahead and upload all 5 now if you want, but then you'll have to wait until next week if you want to post another batch". Because I do know a number of people who work on 2 or 3 pieces in between here and there, and don't upload until they have a couple ready, but then don't upload anything more for a week.

On the other hand, the people who aren't more selective, will be slowed down. Even if they spread the same photos out over a larger period of time, at the end of the week, the month, their output upload is drastically reduced. There's a cutoff limit, and it's just that simple. Maybe it makes them more selective. Maybe it allows people who can't deal with the flood of images to be able to go in and critique honestly and happily and help people improve. Maybe those people won't care and *never* improve - but then they have lost the ability to spit out images so quickly that they are overwhelming the artists who are selective and truly striving for best they can do at this moment in time.

If one remains the same, and the other becomes more limited, the ratio changes immediately right there.

Just a quick aside here.

I have PM'd Lyn with my apologies for being insensitive with my choice and placement of words in that above post of mine.

She is correct in stating her feelings that they were extreme and unfair.

Sorry for the disruption and not engaging my mind before my typing fingers.

Carry on ...

Hi Cat, nice to see ya!

The line is blurring further and further between this thread and this one, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Again, limit the uploads and we all have more time for thoughtful comments and/or critiques.

This month I have posted 12 pictures. I have not been on holiday recently and refuse to get drawn into the brown leaf feast that was october/november, or the long exposure water one either, too many people doing too good a job of those subjects. The reasons for posting are manyfold, so I thought I would go though them as it illustrates a point beyond the obvious one or 'its for a desktop' Well yes tey are, sort of, but also perhaps for other reasons too.

1 Questionable Rocks - Snapshot but amusing/interesting
2 Blue Glass - Shot in June but not posted. I liked the colour even if not perfect quality.
3 Leaf by Niggle - Posted within 30 minutes of taking the picture. Idea seen, captured, posted.
4,5 & 6 Speaker, Water & From the Train - experiments to get feedback.
7 Light Pollution - to make an environmental point in hopefully artistic way.
8 & 9 From These Stones & Palace of Culture. Bits of architecture that I found interesting. Palace of Culture is a questionable post really and I am not entirely happy with it.
10 Water Sculpture - Thought it made a good background and was different to recent posts
11 Platform 3 - Again I wasn't too sure about this one, and am not entirely happy with it myself, but the gang seem to like it, more posted for comments on the style than anything.
12 Pisa Noire - I found it a very striking image so I posted it.

Of the 12 I would only really expect Leaf by Niggle and perhaps Pisa Noire to be contenders for the permanent galleries. Most are not, in my view, of sufficient quality, actual or artistic, to really be considered, but I also feel that most should have been posted.

Missing from the reasons to post are,
1. I have been on holiday, took 300 pictures, think 60 are worth posting so I will do so over the next month.
2. I have found this neat technique so I shall post 50 different versions of the same scene using it.
3. I haven't posted anything today so I shall randomly do so.

When I stared writing this I had a point to make, but age and an interruption seem to have made me drop it. Oh, yes. I think there are reasons for quality other than just quality, if you see what I mean. Some random pictures can lead to ideas others take and develop. Thats the community aspect of this site. Unfortunately the community aspect also seems to be uploading any old shot for your friends to see, something that should be the job of other sites like Flickr. I don't think this will change if we allow people to keep enormous galleries of their pictures, which is why I am in favour of having a limit on the personal gallery for non permanent pictures. This wont solve the problem of lots of mediocre pictures in the new gallery either as people will simply rotate bad pictures.

There has to be some form of artistic judgment on pictures, and I feel that we should put ourselves in the hands of the moderators and live by their decision. Almost any other mechanism is flawed and whilst this may not be perfect, it might be the less of all evils. First pass is to allow a picture onto the new gallery. Second pass to either the permanent gallery or to the owners gallery if they have room, so limit to a number of pictures. If you want quality enforce it first, then hopefully more quality will post.

Oh, and all posts to be a standard screen size up to a maximum of 2560x1600 or perhaps even 1920 so the site cannot be used as a photo exchange mechanism. It is after all a desktop wallpaper site.

Snapdragon wrote: "...At the risk of raising your collective ire, I am slightly worried that the implementation of some of the stricter/more critical systems suggested above would be more of a hindrance than a help, being potentially quite devisive, intimidating to less confident artists and prohibitive to newer members....."

I haven't participated in these discussions for months for a variety of reasons, one BIG one being the animosity I've encountered if and when I haven't "gone with the flow" and, instead, chosen to voice my HONEST opinion. Nonetheless, for what it's worth, I agree with Snapdragon. I have watched this forum slowly move from a friendly, warm, mutually supportive place in cyberspace where talented artists shared their work and respected each other's time and effort, to a sometimes snippy - - even snobby - - corner where an increasing number of participants seem intent on making Caedes an almost elitist artist community.

When I first "discovered" Caedes, it was like a wonderful breath of fresh air....what drew me here was the climate where artists of various backgrounds and capacities shared and learned without fear of "failure." Something's changed folks and, in my humble opinion, it's NOT for the better. Are we actually COMPETING to deliver the most biting "critiques" now?

What I know, ladies and gentlemen, is that I RESPECT every ARTIST here and have no desire to undermine the best efforts of those who share here. Offering careful and "helpful" suggestions is part and parcel to "commenting," but it concerns me that some want Caedes to become an almost academic exercise in artist development.

::Sigh:: Hope all had a great Thanksgiving! Wen

Wen...I have been a member here for not even a year. If anything I have written so far has helped lead to your belief that "Are we actually COMPETING to deliver the most biting "critiques" now?" I humbly apologise. I would hate to see that happen also, becuae I agree whole-heartedly with your statement that "what drew me here was the climate where artists of various backgrounds and capacities shared and learned without fear of "failure." ". I don't appreciate biting, stinging comments any more than anyone else...what I am speaking to is the fact that I posted a pic, since deleted, that I totally and completely over-saturated. I got my normal round of "this is really pretty" and "nicely done" type comments...amd then scored a 9 on the c-icdex. A 9. And not on person told me "gee I like the composition here, but your blues are totally over the top, not very realistic and take away from the over all picture." I would have appreciated that one comment, offered in a positive and caring type way than the 20 insincere "good shot" type comments.

You also wrote "but it concerns me that some want Caedes to become an almost academic exercise in artist development." I agree with you. I don't think anyone wants that...by the same token though, if someone doesn't step forward and offer me a way to improve, in a positive and constructive way, I am never going to improve. I understand that not everyone has the skills or desire to offer an in depth critique, hence my suggestion way /\ there somewhere to have a pro-active choice bewteen leaving a comment or a critique.

It seems to me there may be a pendulem effect here...talking to others who have been members far longer than I they recall a day when much more honest, but gentle and supportive, critique for improvement was offered. The pendulem seems to have swung to leaving more generic "nice shot" type comments. I think your comments are well heeded, so that as we strive for a middle ground the pendulem does not swing to far the other way and exclude newcomers or people who are not confortable leaving detailed critiques.

I don't see the pendulum having swung too far either way, but I have seen the population change which could account for some of what you have experienced.

I really can see Wendy's point and in these threads and I've also experienced some animosity for my opinions and that is unfortunate because it keeps some who may have good points of view from expressing them.

However, I would like to say that from experience, if you want biting criticism of your post, then ask for it in your narrative with indication that you genuinely want to improve your images and need folks to help you do that. Whenever I have done so, people have been forthcoming in their honest evaluations of my images.
You are free to agree or disagree with their observations, but you are given advice to ponder and apply as you may choose and often times there is a sense of elation that now you see what it is that could have made things better. And always indicate your appreciation for their views so they'll find it easier to repeat the exercise on your other images too.

I know some already do this. If someone doesn't offer a criticism, but chooses to compliment the post only, then how would that not be an acceptable critique as well?

I agree with you to a very large extent Cindy. I think it was mentioned a couple of times way /\ there somewhere that even if you don't feel comfortable offering a technical critique, expressing HOW the picture makes you feel is a perfectly valid comment. Again, I don't believe anyone is trying to make this a f/stop, aperature, shutter speed type of commenting only...but if you DO have the skills to do so it certainly helps those that are trying to learn. A sincere compliment, preferably with a specific included (e.g. "I really like the colors of this sunset, it just seems so tranquil") is certainly a valid comment/critique.

The only thing I really disagree with is the statement that if you ask for for hnoset critique you get it. I leave that on virtually all of my posts and still the majority of comments I get are "hey man, nice shot" type comments. Not all, to be sure, but many. An extreme case - I have deleted a post, and now wish I hadn't becasue it would be so germaine to the conversation. I had a picture of a lagoon and got COMPLETELY carried away and over-saturated the cr*p out of the water. I got my usual 12-15 nice comments...and then a '9' in the c-index. Yep, a '9'. And not one person that commented had the courage to tell me flat out it stunk. In a nice way of course, would have been appreciated. A "I like the composition but the water is totally overdone" would have been more appreciated than the dozen "nice pic" cpmments I did get. I posted it to the "Request for Comment" thread and finally got a few honest answers.

Again, not a thing wrong with telling someone how the picture makes them feel, or offering what they DO like about the photo...but I think we, collectively, have strayed to far from offering sugestions for improvements. Just MHO, as always.

I would suggest (crawls under the table for cover before lobbing yet another hand grenade into the room) that part of the 'percieved' problem here is the all inclusive nature of the site. Now before everyone gets upset and forms a lynch mob, let me state I am NOT trying to make the site more exclusive or turn it into "academic exercise in artist development" as stated by Wen...I just think we all need to realize that different people come here for different reasons. Some people (myself included) want to learn more, improve their talents, and learn more about the technical aspect of the art. Others are fairly comfortable with where they are and enjoy sharing their art with others, viewing the art of others and enjoy the (very unique) social side of the site. Both sides have always been welcomed here, as well they should (IMHO), it is what makes this site unique. Achieving the balance is the difficult part, and I suspect that those individuals seeking advancement in their skills are slightly frustrated by the lack of critique. Those that are comfortable with their own abilities where they are get frustrated by threads like this because they feel they are going to be forced to offer "biting" criticisms of others work.

Loop it all around and tie it all together...back to the 2 button system. The viewer gets to choose between leaving a comment or a critique. The artist knows at a glance how many comments vs critiques he has and is free to choose which to view first. I would wager that if this was implemented the 'comments' would outnumber the 'critiques' 10-1, which is where those looking for critique get frustrated. No one wants to exclude comments...just bring it a little more into balance.

No one would be forced to offer a 'critique' if they don't care to. No one forced to offer a comment if they don't want to. No one is forced to read the critique if they don't want to. No one forced to read the comments if they don't want to. No one is excluded. An inclusive system, not an exclusive one. No "academic exercise in artist development". We learn, we grow, we share, whether we offer comments or critiques (so long as we do it in a gentle and kind fashion).

~~Passes around a plate of cookies. Sorry, been so busy typing this epic that I didn't have time to bake. Just some store bought Matt's Chocolate Chip.~~

Rich, I understand that most people want honest feedback rather than "nice fluff." As I've said before in discussions related to image "critiques" and "comments," I tend to gravitate to images I LIKE and leave comments on such images. Hence, most of my comments are positive in nature and, while I try to include some specifics on what I like (and/or don't like,) sometimes I'm more inclined to leave more "emotive" comments that reflect how the image in question affected me. Images I don't care for as much simply not get much of my time but, unless someone specifically requests negative critiques, I'm simply not inclined to leave such comments.

Bottom line? I think most people who upload images here post images that they believe are worthy of respect, even if they fall short of the artistic finesse of more seasoned artists here and elsewhere. One of the coolest things about this site in my view has been the fact that it allows artists of varying degrees of accomplishment to share and grow. My point is simple - - I hope that continues. I'd hate to see only the most refined artists find a niche here. I've seen a number of people move from a level of relative novice to highly skilled artists here over time. I hope there is still room for that kind of "supported growth" here. Wen

Having realised that my last post was probably in the wrong thread I shall now try to add something to the critique discussion. I have a picture here that received some rave reviews. Only one person spotted that the woman in the picture was blurred as my hand shook while taking the picture, and no one commented on the overall tonal quality of the picture which I personally find just too dull and grey. Also, whatever artistic value it has it makes a really bad desktop, believe me, I've tried it. So, is the critique about art or photographs or desktops? The three are not the same Finally we should all take a little more time in looking at the pictures first. So often I see more comments than downloads on the popular pictures. I get reasonable comments, my friends say when they dislike or don't get my pictures, but even they could criticize more. I like to think they do so because I critique and comment on their pictures in a fair but honest manner. In that sense perhaps we only have ourselves to blame for the critiques we get.

@ Wen - I couldn't agree more, although you said it much more eloquently (and in a shorter space, imagine that) than I. No one wants to see all the wonderful things you listed go away, nor do they want supported growth to go away ( i need a LOT of it myself!). Again I think a balance is what we are looking for as the trend sems to be more towards "hey man, nice shot" comments. As Cindy pointed out, a positive comment can also be a critique - it tells me what was good about the post and what to strive for next time. But "Boy, that's a really pretty sunset" doesn't really help me. Does that make it a bad comment? Of course not - we all like nice comments about our work. When I have a concern, is when 14 of 15 comments say "boy that's a really pretty sunset" we have gotten away from the supported growth you mentioned. I just keep churning out the same thing, basking in the friendly comments, and wondering why they only score a 47 if everyone loves it so much. Again, no one is saying banish anyone who leaves that sort of comment, only that it would be nice to have a balance.

@ Chris: "So, is the critique about art or photographs or desktops? The three are not the same." Superb point. Myself, I tend to comment on the photography/fractal/manip aspect of the post. I may not like it as a desktop, but the next person down the road might. The same could be true when viewed as a piece of art. So I feel more comfortable commenting on the technical or "how it made me feel" aspect. Someone else may be commenting on it as a desktop. Or as art. Are any of three wrong? Of course not, that's what makes this site great. Once more - it's all about balance. If I have 3 people "leaving hey man nice shot" comments, 3 commenting that it makes a lousy desktop, 3 commenting that it makes them feel all warm and fuzzy, three people commenting on the technical aspects and what I can do to improve and 3 people saying it should be hanging in a musuem next to the Mona Lisa...I've got a pretty good handle on what I did right and wrong and what to work on next time. And by the way Chris - I don't really know you, but have stumbled over some of your comments here and there and think you do a superb job of commenting in a fair but honest manner. You would be welcome to pop through my posts anytime.

Once again, I know there is a lot of emotion on this topic and I for one would like to thank everyone for remaining respectful and civil in this conversation.

Wen said it in a nutshell - "One of the coolest things about this site in my view has been the fact that it allows artists of varying degrees of accomplishment to share and grow."

Long may that continue ! :)

@ WENPEDER:

When Kelcey wrote those words that you quoted above in your initial post to this discussion, what followed (yeah, bit of a quagmire of words on this one) was this response, and here I am quoting the salient and relevant point(s);

"As well, and lastly ... 'critique' for me, took on some other dimensions.

It was not only about the 'good, bad and possible improvements'.

Came to understand and appreciate how in reading comments, wherein the commenter expressed the way that a piece touched them, influenced them ... could be added to the acceptable levels of 'critiques'.

Creating and posting work, where a dialogue of sorts is initiated/results between that of the viewer and artist ... is indeed a fruitful one."

And then this;

"That said, no one ... no one, is trying to dismantle the site completely and entirely and change into something none of us recognize. Not at all."

And finally, this;

"Adding in some of the 'good, bad and room for improvement stuff' ... will not leave anyone scratching their head when viewing their 'scores' ... only.

That is one of the other ... very real ... problems, as our site sits today, as I see it and in my humble opinion. That does need to be addressed."



"... negative critiques ..."

"... if you want biting criticism of your post,"

"Are we actually COMPETING to deliver the most biting "critiques" now?"


/\ I have some problems with these words, phrases and descriptors being used.


Finishing Cindy's thoughts and words in relation to a part quoted above;

"... then ask for it in your narrative with indication that you genuinely want to improve your images and need folks to help you do that. Whenever I have done so, people have been forthcoming in their honest evaluations of my images."

I don't think the site is setup this way. It should be the case, that 'we' are all offering up to the best of our abilities ... a good image review.

Not sure how long the above has been in place, however, it has been there since day one for me personally.


Personally? Without feedback/constructive criticism coming my way in the form of commentaries left on the images that I do post ... feel that I am stagnating and left to my own devices as to how to best improve upon them. I am getting frustrated. To an extent.

And that is not to say, that I don't appreciate someone giving of their time to tell me that they enjoyed a piece. Not at all.

Simply trying to move some ... some, past or out of a reflexive comfort zone and in relation to the 'friend's list' ... to get back to the roots of what attracted me to our beloved site in the first place. That being this thought here;

"Wow. So many talented, friendly, helpful and supportive members. I think I can improve my work by hanging my creative hat here."



Anyone care to answer the questions back in the initial post? Those being these here:

"Here is the food for thought:

1) When was the last time you received a comment on an image, or your gallery that gave a reason why the commenter thought it was good or bad?

2) When did someone tell you how your work made them feel?

3) When did someone last try to explain the significance of your work or it's meaning?

4) When was the last time someone suggested improvements, or offered constructive criticism?

5) How ofen is constructive criticism followed by a barrage of abuse?

6) Why does both astounding and poor artwork by popular artists receive more of a glowing response than good artwork by relative unknowns?"

Les, I used the work 'biting' only because I was following upon what Rich had said above me and that was a word he used.

Point duly noted Cindy.

My apologies.

Annnnd ... as it turns out, it was first posted by Wendy; aka WENPEDER, repeated by Rich in his response to Wendy's post ... and then, quoted/used by you in your reply to Rich's post.


Here is the point though ...

"Critique" is not a four letter word. Trying to change that some with this discussion.

It is, however, one way to help and provide feedback to the artist.

"I have heard versions of these comments from various people during conversations both on threads and in pm's about the 2 a day uploading:

"I need to get in my 2 today, so I'll talk to you later"
"Well I'm uploading 2 so I can get feedback faster"
"Oh, I just like sharing my images with my friends, I don't care if it's perfect"
What I take away from this is that the people who are uploading 2 a day, either feel that the 2 is something they HAVE to meet either for sharing goals, or learning goals. Which means that whatever self-editing they may be doing, they are not doing enough."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cat, that is a sweeping statement and though it may be true regarding some it is not for all of us. I can speak only for myself but I have NEVER thought I HAVE to upload 2 images a day for any reason. When I do it is because I think they are worthy and reflect the work I have put into them and I appreciate the feedback.

Sometimes of course they aren't worthy, and this brings us full circle. Unless there are constructive critiques pointing out their failings then people will continue to upload what they personally think is acceptable.

I actually believe I am my own strongest critic. When one has worked on an image for hours at a time every small flaw is seen and you begin to not see the wood for the trees. Leaving it for a few days or testing it on your own desktop are ways to evaluate it and perhaps return and do some more work on it. The overall result is often acceptable and the flaws and failings not noticed or ignored by others because the image makes some impact. Or not. Generally a boring or uninteresting image will not enthuse anyone to suggest ways to improve, it will just be passed over

To make a point, I have 2 images I have worked on for several hours. I am not sure about them, and I would love some advice as to how to improve them - to get this I have to upload inferior images, which is why I once suggested a 'work in progress' gallery where advice could be sought and given.Not reworked by another artist, but suggestions made and expertise shared.

I am getting the feeling that to upload 2 images a day is seen as wrong, to offer anything less than a perfect image is wrong, to comment rather than critique is wrong, to have a friends list is wrong.
Am I right?

This discussion has certainly made me rethink just about everything I do and have done here for almost 3 years.
A good thing maybe?

Hey Lyn,

I've not been here for a while and the discussion's moved on. There are a couple of comments I wanted to add. First, is uploading two images a day being seen as something that's bad per se? From my own point of view no. There are a very few people - and Lyn I include you here - who can upload quantity without compromising on quality. But I'm convinced there is evidence of an 'I must upload my 2 a day' compulsion in some quarters, and I think encouraging people to think about whether what they're uploading is really of interest is worthwhile.

Lyn again, I like what you're saying about evaluating images. Working on an image, leaving it a few days, trying it out on the desktop....are all things I have come to do myself. I didn't in my early days here, admittedly, and I think what I have learnt is that the more you look at an image the more you see. I often do several versions of an image before uploading, and am often really surprised by how that process changes what I see. That in turn influences the way I look through the viewfinder when I'm photographing. So I'm convinced that taking time to really look is incredibly valuable. I guess that in most (but not all - again I exclude you) cases, I would question whether it's possible to do that when uploading two images every day.

Great to read what Reg has said above re the length of time it takes to sort through and work on images after a photoshoot. "I'll say that when I return from a photography trip I normally upload the resulting photos over a period of six months or so." Likewise Reg, and it's reassuring to hear someone else say it. I was starting to think I was way too slow and too 'picky,' but this is the way my photography has evolved and I think I'm glad.

I also very much like Chris's eloquent non-reasons for posting:

"1. I have been on holiday, took 300 pictures, think 60 are worth posting so I will do so over the next month.
2. I have found this neat technique so I shall post 50 different versions of the same scene using it.
3. I haven't posted anything today so I shall randomly do so."

I'm glad to see the discussion here has remained more civil than in some other forums, although I see there have been some moments that have been a bit heated. I think I want to re-state what I think we're trying to do here if I may:

Writing bland comments about poor images doesn't do anything for anyone. It has been suggested here that in fact this is the reason for a perceived drop in quality on the site.

Some suggestions have been made about a '2 button' (leave a critique OR a comment) system, with a possible incentive of extra uploads for a valid critique. Concerns have been expressed that this might create an 'elite' and I hope that these have been answered, because I don't think it's anyone's intention.

A key point has been the fact that many who comment don't view an image full-size before doing so. That can't be a good thing?

And a central question has also been raised - what is this site for. There is clearly a tension between the 'social' aspect, which to be honest is a large part of why I'm here (and what I think makes Caedes so special), and the 'image quality' aspect. I suppose the big question I think this thread is trying to address is, what's the best way to manage these two different dynamics.

Finally, I really do think this thread is having an impact. I'm definitely seeing some more honesty in the comments I'm reading.

"Finally, I really do think this thread is having an impact. I'm definitely seeing some more honesty in the comments I'm reading."


I see it as well ... and it is good. :o)

... ...

... ...

Whaa?? That's all I have to add at this particular moment. Nigel's assist on the rudder at this juncture fit the bill wonderfully.

It might be too tall of an order to expect everyone to read this discussion in it's entirety, a summary of the points that are trying to be addressed was indeed in order.

And again, I do sincerely thank everyone for their participation in this discussion. It takes time and I appreciate 'you' giving of your time.

As far as the number of quality posts at Caedes... don't count! I think we must just 'take' what we get. It just might be that there are some people out there that get their 'jollies' upsetting people or perhaps certain people here. Silence could be the best weapon. But then... maybe not. Who really knows¿ :o)
I also realize that everyone can learn from public critique... I know I have, whether it has been directed to others or to me. I hope that EVERYONE can realize that Caedes is supposed to be a sharing community... not only of the images but also of the ideas on how to, perhaps, make any of those images better! I know I really feel (as a relative Newcomer) this is the goal of the established Caedes' community. Merry Christmas everyone! :o)

Been giving this a thought for a while..

Singling out particular "offenders" wouldn't be appropriate, so I'll weed out what I've seen as some of the more common editing "no-no's". Here goes:

Over-saturation, especially of one or more colors (red and yellow seem to be most common)

Over-sharpening. A little refinement's nice and goes a long way towards dressing up an image. Alot deteriorates image quality, introduces noise and artifacting, and creates a white outline(s) around your subject(s). Try to do the sharpening at the time of shooting.

HDR/ shadow and highlight adjustment. Once again, a little bit goes a long way. Alot, looks.. well, freaky. I know it's something of a popular tool but once it's applied so heavily the scene no longer looks remotely real, might be time to dial it down a notch, no?

Noise reduction soup. We've probably all seen one. Great, or really good shot, nice and smooth (so much so a baby would be jealous) and upon further inspection.. what the heck? Where'd the details go? And no, unsharp mask applied 30 times won't save it ;-)

There, that ought to cover alot of the majority of critique points I'd offer for images I've seen, on a technical basis.

Exposure, horizons, etc were't included for their (hopefully) obvious nature.

Perhaps if the items listed could be taken into consideration, both posters and viewers might benefit.

Thanks, Rob. Great observations. I tend to stick to the horizons and over-exposures :O) Thanks for taking us a bit deeper.

Oh lawdy all these tree top comments are a mile high now !
Is this an eternally growing column ? Is there no limit to the off topic comments posted here ? Can someone please hand me a glass of water quickly I'm feeling all faint now ! . )o:

Nah...Critique is not dead....it just isn't being used in a "friendship" manner. I would rather have a friend tell me that I have a piece of food hanging on the side of my mouth than a total stranger. Same with my posts. I posted an image that Rich came to and was totally honest about it. Did it hurt my feelings?...No...because he was right. Sometimes you don't see the forest for the trees and it takes a friend to point it out to you. It just seems that some friends are still saying the common..Great post..Beautiful colors comments. I am a true Ameauter when it comes to photography and to post work. Granted I have learned a lot here, but I catch myself trying to do every tip I have learned to every image that I do. Hence...I am taking a break and get back to the basics after a while. So thank you to the true critique, but please remember that we do need suggestions on how to make the image better and what to do to correct the problems. We really want to be a part of this great community and produce work worthy of being here....but we can't do it without your help. So please just don't tell me whats wrong with the post...tell me WHAT to do to correct it so I can consider it a lesson learned and become better. Maybe links to other places where help could be found would work. I know the Photoshop-aholic thread is useful, but I feel like I said before, that I have to use everything I learn. I know it has to start with a great clear image. But help us feel like we belong to this community and not just the ones who keep posting the same mistakes.

PAul

.....and if we critique an image and don't know how to fix it, for me it is OK to say "I am not sure how to correct what I see as a problem".
We are all in varying degrees of the learning curve. Together we are empowered :=)

Hello again folks I'm pleased to see this relevant topic back on track :o)
For myself I always try to be constructive, & honest with a posted comment sometimes at the expense of causing unintended offence to a sensitive uploader / artist.
At one excellent website I belong to I've been awarded a critique badge / icon .. what happens is any onliner can submit a comment you made to a moderator marked as a critique comment pending their approval. That's just a very simple explanation of their quite comprehensive, & very practical critique policy. This policy / system works very well there, & is so refreshing too. (o:

Kind of curious as to how well everyone is doing with their oaths sworn to this thread.

Went to my own profile page and took the last four thank yous from members/artists who I had visited and here are those four images' pages:

"Red Doors"

"On the Bend"

"A building not like the others"

"tianping"


Anyone else care to offer up some personal examples of their own 'constructive critiques'?

perhaps we should have just abridged the discussion with an opening statement of 'is critique dead' followed by the response 'yeah, pretty much....'

here and here perhaps.

this one and this one
The best was an absolutely horrid snapshot that I critiqued with positive reinforcements and received a long dissertation PM from the artist as to how I didn't have the eye of an artist and I should take some classes on composition, shadows, motion and grain and noise since I had no idea what I was talking about.....*shrugs*
And yes Phil :-)

I would just like to point out that I appreciated &mimi's comments on the second 'this one' and it was not me who sent the long dissertation PM in response, as may be thought from the above :)
As always I welcomed and appreciated &mimi's critique. Hers are always thoughtful and helpful :)

No Eve, it was a 'new' artist who was very caught up in self :o)

Back to square one ... a starting point, if you will.

;o)

*paging Hugh Laurie*

Hugh Laurie has left the ... house ...

I've not frequented these boards until recently, so I had missed this thread originally. Thus some very late comments.

It is a rule of thumb in teaching that the best way to learn something is to explain it to someone else and if you cannot explain it you probably don't yet understand it clearly yourself. I certainly find that applies when I offer an analysis of an image here on Caedes, I really have to THINK about the principles and techniques I'm referring to and I have to THINK about how they apply to this particular image and in that thinking I discover questions and applications I didn't know I didn't know about.

If I cannot explain "why" an image impacts me positively or negatively how can I possibly incorporate those positives in my own work or avoid the negatives in my own work? Offering analysis is a learning process for me and it helps me SEE an image even better. I commonly find my engagement of an image deepening as I think my way thru a detailed comment, often toward a stronger appreciation but sometimes to a realization that some "wow" factor had initially blinded me to serious deficits in other areas. I take that learning moment back to my own images, in the field and in the processing stage.

I've never had any problem giving an analysis of images created by processes I don't understand, Bryce for instance. I still can work out why it impacts ME, or why it does not, and I can share that. I still can apply principles of composition to any image. I can still respond to the narrative, if there is one. I can see how the colours and tones impact me and I can judge, subjectively of course, if those colours and tones work with or against the subject or narrative.

In three years of comments I've had plenty of silence in response to my comments but never once been lambasted in pm by an aggrieved artist. Maybe I'm just lucky so far.

As to the "oath" - rather than trying to keep track of who oathed up and who didn't, I think I might simply start putting an explicit invitation to analytical comments at the bottom of my posts.

This thread was one hell of a long read, but lots of good thinking involved in it so it was worth it. Thanks to all who contributed to it, and thus also to my own thinking and learning curve.

This was a good good discussion, agreed.

One of the most civil in my experience, with a good exchange of ideas and thoughts.


And I thank you for sharing your thoughts here, Mikel.

Your words provided some more thoughtful insights and affirmations as to how 'we' benefit when approaching a commentary on an image from a 'constructively commenting perspective'.

:o)