Overall, i am often impressed by a lot of the imaging here-be it photos, drawings, fractals, etc...BUT today I see an image in Featured Images that is so obviously mediocre and was clearly traced from a photo and it ranks enough to get featured..........this causes me to question assessment of images by whoever selects them for inclusion. Also irks me that I put a good deal into creating an original work...not traced or copied, and it merits not much sometimes. Pretty disappointing. I wonder if people are really looking at work objectively and taking ability, artistry into account. Perhaps I ought to outline a photo in Irfanview, etc. and it would do much better.......

*sighs* Another one... I think I'm staying out of it this time.

One thing - I will be ignoring any PMs you send from now on, so don't try.

I often wonder how the site survived long enough for you to come along and save it

Andre, front page features are randomly selected - 2 of anything in the New Images Gallery with a c-index over 15, and 1 image of anything in one of the permanent galleries.

There's no human doing any choosing beyond that.

I think you'll have a much better time here if you stop looking @ what "rates" and just "share" 8•)

You wrote:..." front page features are randomly selected - 2 of anything in the New Images Gallery with a c-index over 15, and 1 image of anything in one of the permanent galleries....."

That's not the way I understood how front page featured images were selected. ....??
Agreed that it's best not to attend to what "rates" here . . doing so only leads to frustration. Wen

The images are selected by script .. and change every 5 or 10 minutes, so as to not be a heavy drain on server resources

Looking good caedes ..

the second and third *caedes posts mention the ratings .. and the fact he says " It is now selecting one image" .. makes it a non humanoid doing the selecting

Sorry for my error… that should have been 2 of anything in the New Gallery among the top 15% of the c-indexes for that gallery.

SMURF SOLIDARITY

Aw....yes..."among the top 15% of the c-indexes" makes more sense, which is one reason that people continue to place weight in c-index scores. Images with high relative c-indexes clearly get more exposure that way. Wen

It seems that is as it should be. To lure viewers to want wallpaper and keep coming back you show them the best available to keep their interest. It's marketing.

That would be true if, indeed, the images with the highest c-indexes were the "best available. However, if the c-index is an unreliable index of image quality and many high quality images are getting relatively low c-index ratings, then a lot of great images are being sidelined relatively early based on the weighted ratings of a handful of members. Wen

Then maybe they should raise the number of times an image is voted on to 20, which is statistically more accurate than just 11 or 12 times. Maybe they can't handle that on the server and so the arbitrary 11 or 12. Well, I guess that's why the 'Wallpaper Search" for those who want a sampling of the subjects they are interested in which brings up another interesting question. What images come up under the search and how is that determined because obviously you don't get all the images that pertain to a certain subject?

yes .. the search engine is wonky at best .. you can't even input a direct caedes database number and get that image .. (from a rip perspective)

As the system continues, all images will reach the point of being voted on 20 times and more.

All images in the permanent galleries continue to be voted on as well as the "New Images" gallery. The only reason that the engine currently stops @ 11 or 12 is that's how many it gets to before images are culled from the "New Images" gallery.

About 4 months ago it stopped @ 7 or 8 votes… so… as time goes on and votes accumulate… life'll get better. *crossing fingers*

For your other question Cyn… generally it's the title of the image, the artist's name, and whatever written description they have provided.

Thank you for your wonderful, concise and detailed response, animaniactoo. I appreciate that. Cindy

Cat, from what I've read on this subject, it's simply not accurate to say that "all images will reach a point of being voted on 20 or more times....as the system continues." Many images will likely be archived before that point and that takes them out of the voting booth. Wen

Glad to be of help Cyn.

Wen - The images that are currently in the "New Images" or are archived won't make it there, but future uploads will.

Just as the images from 4 months ago that have been archived are no longer voted on, and are stuck @ 7 or 8 votes, but the ones currently in the gallery now receive 11 or 12. It's a matter of time, patience, and participation @ this point.

Cat, I respect your optimism, but I don't see what you suggest happening as the system currently stands. Images that end up in the archives simply would not be in the New Images gallery long enough to draw 20 votes, and, ideally, quite a few more votes than 20 would be needed to accumplish significantly greater statistical accuracy, as Cindy suggests. That's part of what bothers me about the c-index system.....Relatively few votes have an inordinate amount of weight, IMHO. Wen

Images will ultimately only get more votes if more people avail themselves of the voting booth facility than do at the present time.

I agree that the current relatively few votes have an inordinate amount of weight, and I see the results all the time.

However, if it were NOT the case that as time goes on, more and more votes will accumulate for each image including all those in the New Images gallery @ that time, then we would not have moved beyond the 7 or 8 they were getting 4 months to the 11 or 12 they get now.

While I have neglected my voting booth lately due to another issue, the more people who vote, the faster it will get to the next level. Especially if those who wish it to be fair to the artist participate so that their votes balance the ones of those in the words of another member "whose mamas didn't raise them right"

I'll betcha 5 bucks right now that in the next 4 months, barring extenuating circumstances (like a sudden drop in membership, acts of stupidity, etc), the images in the "New Images" gallery will get up to receiving 15 votes @ least. Bet? - Cat

I'm confused I thought this was a thread to answer "question assessment of images by whoever selects them for inclusion.".. guess i'm in the wrong thread cos its once again its been munched on by the never ending Thread Eating C-Index Monster....

Well, Jacqueline, as I understand it, images with the highest c-index are being shown as featured images on the site, which is what Dante was inquiring about. Wen

I believe Dante was enquiring about the apparent quality of images used in the featured images...not talking about the c-index specifically.

True, but the image quality of featured images is determined by c-index scores....correct? Wen

as for images in the "perms" .. some of them were posted and accepted back in the stone-age of the site's timeline .. when only 5 images were posted in a month .. :o) .. it was easier to get in ... not to diminish the achievements of our ancestors

this has been a speculative report

NO Wendy he wasnt talking about the c-index it was QUALITY not how many votes, or how many download or the damn c-index.. just because someone asks a question about images in the new gallery etc doesnt mean its about any of those....

Overall, i am often impressed by a lot of the imaging here-be it photos, drawings, fractals, etc...BUT today I see an image in Featured Images that is so obviously mediocre and was clearly traced from a photo and it ranks enough to get featured..........this causes me to question assessment of images by whoever selects them for inclusion. Also irks me that I put a good deal into creating an original work...not traced or copied, and it merits not much sometimes. Pretty disappointing. I wonder if people are really looking at work objectively and taking ability, artistry into account. Perhaps I ought to outline a photo in Irfanview, etc. and it would do much better.......

Draco said.."today I see an image in Featured Images that is so obviously mediocre and was clearly traced from a photo and it ranks enough to get featured ..........this causes me to question assessment of images by whoever selects them for inclusion..."

Images are "selected for inclusion" as "featured images" based on their c-index scores, Jacqueline, which means that Draco's concern with "whoever selects them for inclusion" relates precisely to the c-index. Wen

GET THE NAME RIGHT FIRST... HIS NAME IS DANTE not DRACO.......
and that is bs.... you know perfectly well that it has been said many times by mods that they use it as a "guideline" and that it also goes off Orgininality... I'm tired of this... you always bring this up no matter what the original question or thread is.. you seem to think as soon as someone mentions "gallery" "new Images" "front page" that they are automatically talking about the index... Not everyone is obsessed with it, not everyone takes any notice of it.. It was a simple statement that DANTE stated... But I'm finished with this once and for all.. so feel free to keep on pushing your view maybe someone will answer you instead of just me... because i wont be anymore...

To Dante.. not only do the photographers put in a lot of time and effort I know because I do photography also.... so do the computer people(which I havent been for very long and didnt realise how much is put into it).. we sit for hours, working on our art sometimes it takes days to get it the way we want, and I have seen some amazing pieces not make it, because there were many other images similar to that one.. I have had images where it has taken me a week with working on the fractal/flame then going the extra mile to put in a background, add some other things to it to make it distinct from other peoples work and that was cleaned out of my gallery... so its not just the photographers, plus you have to realise that there are a lot of photographers on this site, so to get your photo into the top will have to be original, distinctive and eye catching... as for drawings (which I also do), they are far and few unfortunately, so to keep the site varied with styles of art, I assume that they will be put into the gallery... I would like to see the link of the image that you assume is traced, just because it looks perfect does not necessarily mean it is, some people on here are fantastic illustrators...

Go Jackie! -does rooting noises and gestures-

My apologies to Dante for making a "slip" and calling him "Draco." I knew quite well who started this thread, but thanks for pointing out the slip, Jacqueline.

Jacqueline, if you're so tired of this, why to you keep fueling such discussions with personal attacks? I didn't insist that you respond to me with such immature ramblings. Cat, Cindy and Scionlord responded to me and I responded to them and I didn't personally attack any of them for them for expressing their views as you have done in responding to me. So, please feel free NOT to respond to me, Jacqueline. I won't be the least bit offended if you don't. Wen

EXCUSE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have not personally attacked you.. lol.. I was saying my opinion on the damn cindex.. obviously you cant seem to grasp that others are not concerned about it.. and obviously I cant have an opinion because I am debating against instead of for.. and you have said before that people dont comment on these threads and that I seem to be the only one wanting this put to bed... well if you notice no one is answering you anymore because they want it to be buried... but I guess that is a personal attack on you from me for saying that... as for fueling it.. its the same question as to why you keep bringing it up if you dont want anyone to respond to it..

You said: "GET THE NAME RIGHT FIRST... HIS NAME IS DANTE not DRACO.......
and that is bs.... you know perfectly well that it has been said many times by mods that they use it as a "guideline"...."

Jacqueline, if you're not in attack mode, I don't know what to call it. The issue Dante raised was with "Featured Images" and how they are selected for display. In fact, unless something has changed, featured images in the New Images galleries are selected for "featured images" based on their c-index scores. There's no "guideline" involved. It happens automatically. Wen

Wendy you said, "The issue Dante raised was with "Featured Images" and how they are selected for display." but Philippe (Dante11) didn.t ask how the featured images were selected for display if you read his post. He was simply stating that he doesn.t understand how a "mediocre" image was featured when other images aren.t basically saying, he wanted to know if people are "really looking at work objectively and taking ability, artistry into account". Looking at the images and rating them, that.s what he was saying Wendy. He was not talking/asking about how they are selected. and if he is. then please correct me. the c-index i.m pretty sure is used as a guideline for mods. and the front 3 as mentioned before. the left one is a random image in the non-new images gallery. the other two are based on the c-index.

Already said that.. but i'll shut up dont want to be in "attack" mode or be condescending by repeating myself...

I normally don't comment on these discussion boards. Mainly because I think instead of discussions they tend to turn into heated arguments and things are said that people will probably regret later. I especially feel that way about this thread. I don't understand how one question could become so misinterpreted and ugly! After reading everyone's thoughts, I can honestly say, I think everyone has some legitimate points, but you are all so involved in being right that this has turned into a virtual war. I think that's too bad. Vicky

Same here, you guys are just creating reason for expulsion. Only the Off-Topic threads are allowed to have heated flame wars ;P.

so little timmy what you are saying .. we can talk absolute c*** on the off topic but if we debate the ins and outs of things its a reason for expulsion? There are 2 sides to everything in life and not everyone will agree on anything.. what you say is black someone will say white.. thats part of life.. if everyone agreed it would be a boring place to live and you may as well be a robot to do what people want.. there is nothing wrong with people having opposite opinions, at least it made people sit up and notice that there are good points for it and good points against it... Wendy and I have this argument every time its brought up, I dont have anything against her (hope you realise that Wendy), its just that is my opinon and she has hers, we just dont agree and we try to put forward reasons as to why we have those opinions.. the reason we argue is that we get frustrated with each other due to different views.. this wont affect my views on Wendy's art or any other things on here... its just this one thing that niggles both of us..

well said jackie ;P

I was kidding. And why censor crap?

because I am in enough trouble with everything else.. lol

I think one of the best solutions is to eliminate the zero vote in the voting booth. Only if something is absolutely terrible, will it be rated 1, and no longer 0, to help compensate for some of the unfair bias in the voting booth.

still wont work.. cos then the ones who vote zero will just vote 1

My point is that no image is worth a zero, and zero lowers the c-index a lot more than a 1.

personally i dont think anything should be voted under 3 or 4

True, but I'm trying to be as realistic as possible.

Now there is something we agree on, Jacqueline. Wen

Glad to be a moderator ;-).

timmy it doesnt matter what you move the lowest number to.. they will still vote low.. which is WRONG.. this excuse of not knowing how to vote on it is a load of crap (there you go I said it =P) there are tips on how to judge an image on the voting page, and i'm sure (as I have said many many times) that people can see if they like the colour, or design etc.. it doesnt matter if they know how the ins and outs work.. when I first came on this site, I had no idea how computer stuff was made, but I did know what appealed to my eyes and what didnt, but I always found at least one thing even if it was just the colour.. photographers and computer artists have got to realise that no matter what style of art it is, there is a lot of work involved in it, and part of the artist themselves.. photographers have to find something to photograph, adjust the exposure and all the bits and pieces to get a good capture.. computer people have to work on designs and layouts.. it all takes time no matter what it is.. its hard work for both which both genres should be looked and judged with respect..

And just HOW do you propose we enact this?

arrgggggg no! no! no!.. Timmy! Timmy! Timmy!!!!!!!! i'm not going into this again.. it has been done over and over...

by being DROPPED.

Sorry, I was just thinking of one small practical way to make the c-index SLIGHTLY more representative of the quality of an image.

NO NO NO >_< lol

noooooooooo!!!!!! Wendy & I have had that debate already.. go read the thread..

Or any of the innumerable prior threads where it's been brought up & discussed before Tim. It's like flogging a dead horse....do you know that expression Tim ? It means that something is absolutely pointless. Do a little reading & you can see how people feel.

I may regret saying this, but I feel that there is still room for improvement in the voting system at Caedes. I vote in the voting booth every time I come on this site by the way and I feel that if this system is going to work at all, that whether we like it or not, we need to vote. I guess I still would like to vote on the images that appeal to me the most, but this is not my site and Mr. Caedes has determined that we should vote on a variety of different images and frankly I really don't mind it that much. I know some people are sick and tired of discussing the dreaded C-INDEX., but frankly I think it does hold quite a bit more weight in determining a lot of things on this site than most of us realize. I come to Caedes because I really enjoy the people and I have totally enjoyed learning to actually create art using different programs on the computer. I'm having a ball doing it! The first time one of my images made the permanent galleries (which wasn't all that long ago) I was absolutely thrilled! Since this whole debate about the c-index started I have done a lot of checking and watching and I can definately see where some of the frustration is coming from. What the solution is - ??? I just feel people sould be able to voice there opinions without being shot down. Vicky

what do you feel that the c-index affects Vicky? the images going into the perm galleries? images there are not affected by the c-index if that.s what you.re saying. there are images in those galleries w.really low c-indexes even though they are pretty high in quality.

all i.ve seen and know the c-index controls is the front page images, only 2 of those, the middle and right one. and ppl can voice their opinions but if the SAME questions are asked yet the SAME answers are always given. is there really point in raising this question about changing the c-index over and over again? and as some have said before. this isn.t our site but caedes' site. so we should allow him to make changes if he wants. am i wrong?

No Andrew, I am not saying you are wrong, but isn't it true that the modertors have said that the c-index's definately play a part in what they look at and consider for the permanet galleries? I've read that on several threads. Vicky

well i highly doubt that. cause if 41:100 is a high c-index. then we should aim low ;P. it.s basically for the front page i believe. definitely not for the perms.

moeaction.s image is great in quality also. my reason for using it as an example :)

Here you go a prime example of the c-index in perm gallery not a high cindex 27:100

Okay guys, I've been doing the dreaded job of cleaning my fridge while debating this with you and thankfully I'm done with that filthy job and I really can't refute what either of you have said so I am going to call it a night. If what you are saying is true, I really don't understand why they don't just just get rid of the c-index once and for all and then nobody would have to question it anymore! Good Night All! Sleep tight! Vicky

thats what i have been saying a long time

Hi again! It's another day! I just have a few more questions... For the first year I was at Caedes, pretty much my favorite program was TieraZon. I still love it. I started out a beginner like everyone else, but after awhile a began to put out some pretty darn good Tierazons if I do say so myself. After a while though, I became discouraged, because no matter how many wonderful comments I received or what the c-index climbed to - NOT ONE OF MY TIERAZONS EVER WAS POSTED ON THE PERMANENT GALLERIES. That is when I decided to start dedicating my time to Vue and since then almost all of my Vue images have made it to the permanent galleries. Can someone explain that to me? Vicky

the mods choose them :)

Vic - originality is a key factor in inclusion in the galleries - as has been mentioned before - nice and as aesthetically pleasing as I’m sure your tierazon work was, there is a far higher chance that it would look similar to many other works already in the perms - Vue would be much different as the nature of the images created in it are more random and less likely to be facsimiles of other images. Hope that clarifies it a little for you.

Exactly philcUK. This could not explain things any better.Thats why hes got a & sign. hehe

but i said the mods choose them! i could.ve said what phil said. with much more sophisticatability it.d shame phil! luckily for him. i wasn.t that clever at the time >_<

Hmmmm. Well, Phil, I hear ya, but, if "originality" is a key factor, then I'm seeing an awful like of very similar Apophysis images in the permanent galleries and very few fractals created by other fractal programs. Don't get me wrong...I really like Apophysis, but, for some time now there seems to be a bias that favors Apophysis and is rather adverse to other types of fractals here. At one point I frequently uploaded TieraZon creations and at one point (over a year ago) they seemed to get a nod from moderators for the permanent galleries. That has clearly changed, however, and I'm curious as to why. There are some really great TieraZon designs that make great desktop backgrounds here that simply don't fair well with those who decide which images are promoted to the permanent galleries. The vast majority of fractals here are now Apophysis. I, personally, would like to see a bit more variety in the main galleries. Wen

Apophysis, as Phil said about Vue, has more variety, a way to completley change the fractal, unlike programs like Fractal Explorer or Tierazon, the programs all have the same sets of fractals, you just have to find them, you don't really make them. At least that's my understanding of those two programs.

I also just went through the "main" abstract gallery, and what apophysis images do you see that are similar? They all seem pretty different to me. Not only that, more people are using Apophysis, which I find to be the reason to more apophysis fractals on site :)

Actually, Andrew, more people (including myself) are uploading Apophysis images these days in part because Apophysis images clearly fair better on Caedes than other fractal images. As for similarity between Apophysis images, I couldn't even begin to list the Apophysis images that resemble one another in the main galleries, Andrew. Again, I really LIKE Apophysis flames, including those that resemble other flames. I would just like to see more fractals created by other programs in the main galleries as well. Wen

Actually Wendy, I'm going to have to say that you're wrong, people aren't working with apophysis more b/c they "supposedly" fair better than other fractal images, this being with both new and old members that create fractals, I haven't ever noticed something like that happening. Yes, the latest I believe 6 pages in the main abstract gallery are mostly Apophysis, but they are pretty good, and there are some other types or images mixed in there, but just because they "fair" better doesn't mean you should stop using another program just to go with what is supposedly "more accepted". I just went through your gallery and you really have created some GREAT tierazon images, including Into the Unknown and Enchanged Forest.

To me, you saying something like "you upload more apophysis images these days because they clearly fair better" isn't actually proving your point now is it? Throw some great Tierazon images out here, I know you can do it, I just picked out two of yours that ARE in the main gallery. I can guarantee you, that even though I don't run the site or do anything on here behind the scenes, there isn't anything "bias" about the images being selected for the main abstract gallery.

Andrew, the TieraZon's I've "thrown" in more recently are fairing terrible here, but I keep uploading them anyway from time to time...HOWEVER, not nearly as often as I used to when there were more here who seemed to enjoy them. As for your conclusions relating to "bias," bias isn't necessarily CONSCIOUS, Andrew. We ALL have baises, many of which we're not even aware. To say that you can guarantee no bias in the selection process, is simply something NO ONE could guarantee.

As for my TieraZons that have made the main gallery, read my note above carefully....as I said, TieraZon faired much better some time back. Somethings seems to have changed, however, and they don't seem to be fairing nearly as well now. Wen

Hmm..ok fine, I can't guarantee you that there isn't any bias going on behind the scenes, but not the nicest way to think of this, now is it? Plus, I didn't find where you said they faired better in the past, but even if that's true, things do change, some people could've gotten bored, some people that liked it left the site, things come and go, that's life, and that should be accepted for all problems, even this tierazon thing.

Fashion and taste is as fickle as the weather and as brief as a blink of the eye……

Does that mean we're bringing back the neon-colored windbreakers? 8•P

but of course

are those from the 80s?

No, they are from the land before time.

no wonder cat remembered it ;P