Caedes

Back to basics

Submitted by caedes 08/13/11 6:38 AM GMT

It seems clear to me that many people are missing the intended purpose of this website: to share artwork and share experiences in making and experiencing it. Things like the C-index (voting) can sometimes help in that effort, but sometimes they can distract us as well. Therefore, I have decided to remove the c-index and c-index voting from the site. Please take any time that would have been spent worrying about the c-index and instead create new artwork, enjoy the artwork of friends, or comment and critique new works.

Comments

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::coram9
08/13/11 7:37 AM GMT
I can see only too well why you made this decision.

I think it is a shame that it has come to this. The only anonymous way of showing dislike of an image has now gone. I think it will now be difficult for many people to post an honest comment since it can be difficult to sometimes make balanced and effective comments. I fear the result will be more work being thought of as good when it is not with no dissension raised.

Personally I found the feedback from the CI useful in gauging my work in other peoples eyes. I feel now I shall have to rely more on posting on other sites for this.
7∈ [?]
"There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs." Ansel Adams - Gallery - Web Site - follow me on Twitter.
.J_272004
08/13/11 8:06 AM GMT
Such a shame you had to change YOUR site.. unfortunately it seems the only way to shut down the hostilities.. and yes the basics and the reasons as to why they came here in the first place (because I'm sure they had no idea what the CI was when they first posted)have been lost.. I really hope that this settles down now and that great art can be created and shared.. BUT (yes there is always a but) I can guarantee there will be something else that will be dragged out, jumped on and argued til the sun goes down unfortunately some thrive on this..
0∈ [?]
MY GALLERY ........... "You are not alive unless you know you are living." Amadeo Modigliani
.cynlee
08/13/11 8:43 AM GMT
The hostilities did not center around the index.
14∈ [?]
LYTRO. The new light field photography. Refocus your shots AFTER you have taken them. Just click on the word LYTRO. See a VIDEO HERE.
.Nikoneer
08/13/11 8:49 AM GMT
After reading this I went to the Caedes Control page for my gallery and I see the votes column is now gone. This, however, brings up a question of procedure. Prior to this we had to vote on at least 10 images before we could upload one (I didn't have a problem with the requirement--I normally voted on 25 when submitting). What is the requirement now for submitting?
0∈ [?]
If you've ever wanted to make a difference but found it hard to believe that one person could... check out the Kiva Team Caedes discussion thread and discover that anything is possible.
::coram9
08/13/11 8:54 AM GMT
I think that requirement was removed some time ago. You only had to vote if you wanted votes.
0∈ [?]
"There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs." Ansel Adams - Gallery - Web Site - follow me on Twitter.
.Nikoneer
08/13/11 8:59 AM GMT
Cindy's right. I didn't see the complaints and strong disagreements centering on the c-index... it was only a symptom. Personally, I believe there were a few members, most likely none that took the time and effort to discuss it in the threads, who were manipulating it in order to sow dissention ... and I believe it worked. Those of us who care about the site were voicing it; those who don't, worked in silence. I know. It sounds like a conspiracy theory. But considering how hot under the collar some of these folks got, the ones who did comment, isn't it likely there may have been a few quietly tossing in a monkey wrench, here and there, just to stir things up? It takes all kinds of people to make this world we live in... why would this site be any different?
15∈ [?]
If you've ever wanted to make a difference but found it hard to believe that one person could... check out the Kiva Team Caedes discussion thread and discover that anything is possible.
.Nikoneer
08/13/11 9:01 AM GMT
Is that right, Chris? I thought we still had to vote, regardless. It must have been one of those news announcements I missed. (beat...it's late... crashing... will check back later)
0∈ [?]
If you've ever wanted to make a difference but found it hard to believe that one person could... check out the Kiva Team Caedes discussion thread and discover that anything is possible.
::coram9
08/13/11 9:01 AM GMT
There plus side of this is that all images are treated equal in the main gallery, which for those of us who post in B&W will rejoice. Every cloud and all that.

I do wonder how the images for the home page will be selected.
0∈ [?]
"There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs." Ansel Adams - Gallery - Web Site - follow me on Twitter.
.JQ
08/13/11 9:02 AM GMT
interesting...! lets see how this one pans out....
3∈ [?]
::corngrowth
08/13/11 9:59 AM GMT
---create new artwork, enjoy the artwork of friends, or comment and critique new works---

Glad to hear from you Geri. I agree with you. Thanks for showing us again the intented goals of this site. Hope that the rest has returned on the site now and we all may contribute to achieve those goals.

Regards, Cornelius.
7∈ [?]
Please CLICK HERE to see my journal!
::LynEve
08/13/11 11:10 AM GMT
For those of us who have relied on the C-index as an indication of the value of what we create it will be missed.
Having no other avenue of determining improvement etc i.e. not having the luxury of belonging to a camera club or using any other sites to gauge quality, for me personally, this leaves a big gap.
Taking into account at those who 'dislike' or see faults in images rarely, if ever, bother to say what they think on the actual image page there is the possibility that the overall standard will decline.

Hopefully members will do as suggested and use the time that would have been spent on voting to comment on and critique new works.
6∈ [?]
My thanks to all who leave comments for my work and to those of you who like one enough to make it a favourite. To touch just one person that way makes each image worthwhile. . . . . . . . . .. . . . "The question is not what you look at, but what you see" ~ Marcel Proust . . . . The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." ~ Joseph Joubert (1754-1824)
::casechaser
08/13/11 11:24 AM GMT
I too used the c-index as a gauge for how the community viewed my work.

However, I want to thank Geri for his continued efforts to make his site enjoyable for all of us.

The arguments for and against the c-index are historic. The arguments have always gone from first question to nasty in the the threads.

So, I say, Geri has taken away the "beast," let's give it a chance to see what the Caedesworld will be without it.
10∈ [?]
::tigger3
08/13/11 11:39 AM GMT
It does seem kind of strange not to see the score next to my image. It shows that Geri does pay attention to what is said on his site, it will be interesting to see how this turns out, and the other changes that might happen because of it. Not sure why it had to be taken away, as we all the option of submitting our images to the VB or not! But it is what it is,and I will accept it, and not complain.
Tigs♥ =^..^=

6∈ [?]
Nature in all her glory is my uplift on life and so is my love of photography. sandi ♪ ♫
::biffobear
08/13/11 12:25 AM GMT
I agree totally with John Casechaser,When anyone started a thread with a simple question,It was jumped on by certain members as an opportunity to flame them,Show their superior intellect,(In their Eyes anyway)..The question was never fully answered and only served to inflame the situation..
4∈ [?]
I can smell the sunlight on your skin. Listen to them. Children of the night. What music they make!
.Cherry79
08/13/11 2:01 PM GMT
I think it's a shame that a few jerks who loved to vote zeros just to mess up people's scores forced this decision. I too gauged my work by the voting booth. It drove me crazy that the very 1st image I uploaded years ago always had the highest c-index on my gallery. No matter how hard I tried and how much I learned, I couldn't beat that 1st score. I guess now I'll just gauge my work by how many times it gets seen full screen.
4∈ [?]
For in and out, above, about, below, 'Tis nothing but a Magic Shadow-show, Play'd in a Box whose Candle is the Sun, Round which we Phantom Figures come and go. From Edward Fitzgerald's Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam
.rvdb
08/13/11 2:31 PM GMT
The Big C gone no more VB speaking for myself will miss them
both............ really am sad to see them go. As I have always submitted my images to the VB and sometimes got burned with a bad C, I must say in all honesty when looking back at the posting it was that I thought it was good not always that it was good Huuuummmm.

But as easily as a bad C index can burn you just as easily a good one can warm your heart. But that said I always had in the back of my mind if you can't stand the heat don't go near the fire.........

I sometimes think its as if you can only say great work or someone will get mad. But in all that has been said we forget sometimes that when a new member or some one that does not have years of experience enters Caedes community that there work may not match your or my standards the VB and C index did reflect
the norm or something to aspire to.

Discontent will not just disappear the discontented will find something else to be unhappy about. Some times wonder what ever happened to the saying “deal with it”. Not saying the VB was perfect but a vote is always better than no vote.
4∈ [?]
The reason why the sun sets in the evening is because it wants to see the sunrise in the morning. I rise in the morning because I want to see them both. RvdB
.Con_
08/13/11 2:50 PM GMT
As one who has never had a photography course... but as one who knows what I like when I see it (not necessarily always knowing why...), I will state that for me the c-index had no bearing... a number told me very little that is/was important. The steps in the comments that suggest ways of making improvements are always considered and often tried... be they my posting or certain posts (interesting to me) of others. In the end, whether I have agreed or disagreed with the suggestions in the commentary (because of my preferences), I have usually learned something! I am not one who chooses between strawberry or chocolate flavouring on a sundae... I usually go with both!  :o)
I must say... as far as how to comment on a posting... in my mind, Les' (Purmusic's), work is a perfect example of how to make both constructive yet suggestive :o) comments! I am not trying to suggest we copy his style. He, alone, is Les! But I would suggest that we try to remember that 'personal preference' often enters into the equation and try to leave room for the poster's Pp in our suggestions.
(I can see 'trolls' functioning in two ways... with inflammatory comments on posts and with posts that can draw critical/'negative?' comments so they can respond in their way.) Anyway... keep on :o)
5∈ [?]
MGBWYA
::0930_23
08/13/11 3:38 PM GMT
What a great thing to see. An exchange of ideas in a civil and constructive manner. This is something I want to be a part of.
Have a good weekend everyone.
7∈ [?]
Cameras are like people--sometimes they lose focus.

This comment by .palral has been moved to the Hall of Shame.

[view comment]

.Nikoneer
08/13/11 5:10 PM GMT
I know a few of you don't care for the concept of sharing, but I've always felt that sharing was the backbone of this site. I can't speak for the rest of you but the sharing of our images, our ideas, and our relative skills is what keeps me here (well, that and my friends but I'm not going to bake the "social" pie here). When I was in college (in the Cretaceous Period) for a fine arts major, our department head insisted on taking us to art museums whenever possible. In my experience it was one of the best ways to stir our creative juices, to jump-start ideas for new works, stimulated by what we saw in those frames. The Caedes site is much the same. Although I've been shooting photos for over 30 years, the last 20 for the agency I work for (and therefore get published often... what can I say; a marginal photo is better than none at all in a publication), I don't have all the answers and skills I'd like to have. Happily, I get to see some very good work here at Caedes, gleaning ideas from you folks all the time, and occasionally getting to help a novice explore and enjoy this world through photography. (I did once try my hand at a Fractal, but... well, let's just say we've had enough bad jokes pass through here lately.) We will survive all this and I have no doubt that Geri will eventually come up with something even better, in terms of feedback, as I believe was the intended by-product of the c-index.

-Nik
8∈ [?]
If you've ever wanted to make a difference but found it hard to believe that one person could... check out the Kiva Team Caedes discussion thread and discover that anything is possible.
.Drummer_girl
08/13/11 9:45 PM GMT
Interesting decision and I feel it is a good one, back to basics...we are here to enjoy the photos of all members, we are all different and have different views, and ofcourse different cameras! Thus a photographer with an average camera might take a good photo, excellent scene but due to lack of quality on the cameras behalf, we get a low score on what is in fact a lovely photo that deserves comment and not scoring. I think it makes this feel less like a competiton and more like a hobby, because lets me honest photography is by far one of the most rewarding hobbies and what a joy it is to share our moments of captured beauty with everyone else! :)
Caz*
9∈ [?]
"Everything has its beauty but not everyone sees it." Confucius
.palral
08/13/11 11:02 PM GMT
Someone lacks a sense of humor.
4∈ [?]
What's the difference between a duck?
::egggray
08/13/11 11:34 PM GMT
The votes still have not been removed from the "Most active members page" I do think Cindy was correct when she said "The hostilities did not center around the index" And John "I too used the c-index as a gauge for how the community viewed my work" Well, I did like it, but I can live without it. I will do what Geri said "Please take any time that would have been spent worrying about the c-index and instead create new artwork, enjoy the artwork of friends, or comment and critique new works." Since Ceades himself started this thread, please be respectful with all of your comments here.

.
5∈ [?]
“There is only you and your camera. The limitations in your photography are in yourself, for what we see is what we are.” - Ernst Haas
.FlimBB
08/13/11 11:37 PM GMT
I really do see both sides of this decision. As Coram9 notes, it is a way in which individuals can anonymously "rate" and image without worrying about getting flack over it. Although I’ve noticed that one’s basis of voting numbers varies from another’s. On the other side, an anonymous voting system leaves a lot of room for flaming (not the Apophysis one).
Personally, I liked to vote in the vb, but I also really enjoy cruising through the New Images gallery. After all, the New Images gallery is where I have met everyone I know on this site. And I make new ones all the time.

I am very much a novice digital artist and a hobbyist when it comes to photography, so meeting people by visiting artwork and photography which I find strikes my art-bone always has the benefit of a new friend here – and thus, someone else I can learn from. All have been both kind and honest in posting on my images and I cannot ask for more than that. Hopefully I don’t make too many stupid observations on other’s work as I do try to be complimentary and provide honest feedback.


So I cautiously applaud this move just for the fact that Caedes is striving to provide a site that promotes creativity and not resentment and is doing this with the best of intentions
-Mike
4∈ [?]
I thought I had all the answers, but it turns out I don't even know the questions. -Stephen Prothero (paraphrased)
.FlimBB
08/13/11 11:43 PM GMT
I might add that the "Lonely Images" section is fun too, as it is a great place to help others with critiques and suggestions. And a good place to practice tact ;)
4∈ [?]
I thought I had all the answers, but it turns out I don't even know the questions. -Stephen Prothero (paraphrased)
.MackMan
08/14/11 12:33 AM GMT
Cassandra, you hit the nail on the head! I totaly agree with you and your perspective! Bottom line, we enjoy what we do becaue we enjoy what we do with or without numbers!
5∈ [?]
::Ramad
08/14/11 9:24 AM GMT
I was often irritated when I saw a 0 or 1 for an image which finally ended up in the high 50s but I must admit that all the same I found the c-index useful as a measure of my own performance. I think Caedes could have put this subject to vote and given a month's time for all those interested to vote for or against abolishing C-Index. In that case the majority would have won and there would have been no room for complaints any more.
13∈ [?]
If practice makes perfect and nobody is perfect, then why practice?
::allisontaylor
08/14/11 12:56 AM GMT
As a visitor to this site I respect all decisions. I didn't have any complaints about how the VB, CI or uploading requirements were established. They were all in place when I came here. I have learned a lot here. From the members and from site itself. Being put in the position as a novice to examine images in a more objective way has been helpful to me. I too felt like I learned something from the feedback. Though not always what you may think....There is a part of me that feels this end result is what was desired by many for a long time coming. From my perspective the numbers meant a lot less than the participation of give and take and realizing when something worked or didn't and why if possible. As far as the VB goes, who would a person be competing with? One self? (This is no complaint, just an observation.) I never understood any one being so upset over a low CI... It was only a gauge of how it was received by the voters. Not how good, bad or brilliant...an image really is. How the site used those numbers was of no consequence to me. I have found it very refreshing in the past that the members were often asked to voice opinions, suggestions and feedback. I will still enjoy visiting the site and viewing the images....but I do wonder if I will learn much less now that participation to view, think and observe more objectively won't be as required as it once was.
35∈ [?]
::SR21
08/14/11 4:32 PM GMT
I for one never took the CI to heart...high or low. That said when it was really low I would take a closer look at my work and play with it to see if I could make it better,which I always could usually with the help of some of the constructive criticisms I received from other members that I have become friends with...and some that I have not! Everyone sees art in a different way and POV that is what makes our world a great place and help those of us who want to learn and to become better at what we enjoy so much! I will miss voting as it was a good way to see others work and gleam from them! I guess I will just have to do a lot more surfing of the site so I can get my fix!

:} Steve
3∈ [?]
::mschaper
08/14/11 8:22 PM GMT
I myself like the idea of an AC and think it works pretty well. When I go to the main galleries I look for and expect only the best of the best. For the most part I think the AC is efficient in eliminating lesser quality work. I liked the C index mainly for it's sorting properties. I don't have the time to go through 15 or more pages sorted at random. Same with an artists gallery. I find the C index does well in sorting the best he or she has to show. Other photo sites out there much worse than here at Caedes. Don't want to start a battle with anyone.....just my opinion.
20∈ [?]
=Samatar
08/14/11 10:26 PM GMT
"there would have been no room for complaints any more."

Thanks, I needed a laugh! :-)
2∈ [?]
-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
.jacked
08/14/11 11:37 PM GMT
Caedes your the man.
0∈ [?]
.doughlas
08/15/11 12:00 AM GMT
Well, I don't think it makes a great deal of difference if people vote or not. One seldom, if ever, knew why one received a low or high score since scores were not related to comments in any discernible way. As for me, I receive so few comments anyway that there is relatively little value in even that. I just like showing people my pictures and if they choose to make comments or suggestions so much the better. As for the voting, I always put my postings in the VB. Sort of a matter of keeping score more than anything else.
0∈ [?]
::100k_xle
08/15/11 12:29 AM GMT

May the VB RIP!


E J
3∈ [?]
This Image GRABBED my EYE. That's Why I Stopped By. Thanks For Sharing ! Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience
::jeenie11
08/15/11 3:23 AM GMT
I'm one who always felt the CI pressure. It's a relief to me to enjoy and not worry. Thanks. jen...............now if we can keep our discussions civil we'll be home free!
3∈ [?]
AVATAR BY PJ............... I'd like to thank those of you who have been so kind as to add my photos to your favorites. Please Visit My Gallery
.Jhihmoac
08/15/11 4:22 AM GMT
I have to say "Great"! The c-index really didn't make any sense at all...So, now it's by views/visits and d'loads, like most art sites on the internet...

I like it this way better...Opens the door for more variety...And that's what art is about...Different strokes for different folks...
6∈ [?]
"Put up...or SHUT UP!" Visit Jhihmoac's Gallery
.tbhockey
08/15/11 11:55 AM GMT
Very interesting.
0∈ [?]
-tbhockey
.cynlee
08/15/11 3:48 PM GMT
I liked the C index mainly for it's sorting properties. I don't have the time to go through 15 or more pages sorted at random. Same with an artists gallery. I find the C index does well in sorting the best he or she has to show. ::mschaper

*************************

Personally I found the feedback from the CI useful in gauging my work in other peoples eyes. ::coram9

*************************

I will miss voting as it was a good way to see others work and gleam from them! ::SR21

*************************

I do wonder if I will learn much less now that participation to view, think and observe more objectively won't be as required as it once was. ::allisontaylor

*************************
I think Caedes could have put this subject to vote and given a month's time for all those interested to vote for or against abolishing C-Index. In that case the majority would have won and there would have been no room for complaints any more. ::RAMAD

**************************

Good observations. There will be less opportunity for genuine critique because I don't believe people will change too much in the way they comment and there will remain little chance for any indiction of improvement other than the AC promotions which are limited.

And all this over a little zero (= nothing).
5∈ [?]
LYTRO. The new light field photography. Refocus your shots AFTER you have taken them. Just click on the word LYTRO. See a VIDEO HERE.
::laurengary
08/16/11 2:42 AM GMT
Jackie's right....it's a real shame Geri had to change HIS site. A little zero ? Hardly.
0∈ [?]
I've got amnesia & deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before ! ... That was Zen, but this is Tao !!! ...CLICK TO SAVE LIVES !
=Samatar
08/16/11 6:41 AM GMT
"Please take any time that would have been spent worrying about the c-index and instead create new artwork, enjoy the artwork of friends, or comment and critique new works."

Good advice... can we move on now?
12∈ [?]
-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
.cynlee
08/16/11 2:09 PM GMT
Sure. Then why have an option to comment if you can't say what you think? As you wish.
0∈ [?]
LYTRO. The new light field photography. Refocus your shots AFTER you have taken them. Just click on the word LYTRO. See a VIDEO HERE.
.reddawg151
08/16/11 4:05 PM GMT
I've not always been the most active member of the site, but I have been on here for a very long time. I support the decision-- the c-index really devolved into something that was not a measure of an image's quality NOR a reflection of what people thought of it. What it reflected exactly I'm not sure, but it wasn't anything useful or positive.

I do think some mechanism for encouraging more commenting on images should be thought up... maybe requiring people to view and comment on a few works before they can upload one of their own.
0∈ [?]
~Bob
.gonedigital
08/16/11 6:04 PM GMT
The C-index was never compulsory towards the end, if you didn't want a C-index on your work it just meant you never visited the voting booth before an upload. Some may say with the C-index gone there is no further aggravation but answer me this how are we going to gauge our, & other peoples work now ?
4∈ [?]
.FlimBB
08/16/11 7:07 PM GMT
There is one gauge that has not been mentioned here and that I use. It is simply whether or not someone I do not know visits the image. I know my friends here will (I hope :), but when someone at random visits I know they saw it amongst the others being viewed and came to take a look. Just a thought.
2∈ [?]
I thought I had all the answers, but it turns out I don't even know the questions. -Stephen Prothero (paraphrased)
.tbhockey
08/17/11 12:30 AM GMT
Caedes, house-keeping note; you can remove this from the Code of Conduct:

"Voting on images should be based on each image's quality and not the image's author. Regularly up-voting a specific user's images will not be tolerated."
0∈ [?]
-tbhockey
::billyoneshot
08/17/11 1:05 AM GMT
At first I to found the c index as a usefull tool and I think it still could be, but we have people out there giving very good work(and I am not talking just about my own) zeros and ones. After that you do not get a truthfull c index. Maybe if you felt a shot required below a five you should be required to give a comment as to why, even if it is a an anonymous message. At least then we would know why our work was given this vote.
2∈ [?]
Billy
+animaniactoo
08/17/11 1:30 AM GMT
Guaranteed that if you were required to give a comment why an image deserved a low vote, you'd have people who wrote "Because." or worse... "It sucks."
2∈ [?]
One man sees things and says
+animaniactoo
08/17/11 1:34 AM GMT
Basically - you can't change the nature of people. You have to accept it. You just have to accept that some of them are going to be jerks. And move on and don't expect that you can prevent them from being jerks. About the best you can do, is to do everything you can not to be a jerk yourself.

So... me... I'm going to go make my husband's face go "huh WHAT?" a few more times as I say completely ridiculous things to him that will confirm his theory that I'm nutzoid. And then I'll go embarrass my kids. And then I might do useful and constructive things.
7∈ [?]
One man sees things and says
.Nikoneer
08/17/11 4:04 AM GMT
The c-index was a useful and fairly reliable tool, back when I started in 2006, but all one need do is look at all the complaints about it over the past year or so to realize it's time had come to die a quiet death. Making it a requirement to leave a few comments, prior to our own uploads, wouldn't change anything. As Cat just said, and I've said several times, human nature will out. The same people who would say "because" or "it sucks," when required to give an explanation for a low vote, would purposely leave short, meaningless, and repetitive comments, just to fulfill the requirement or, possibly, to be a schmuck. Human nature. People leave short, meaningless, and repetitive comments now, probably with NO intention of being a schmuck. More likely, they don't feel comfortable or confident in leaving anything more constructive. I believe that something other than promotion to the perms through the mods and Art Council needs to be an element of this site. And it needs to be something that can't be tampered with as the c-index was, leading ultimately to it's elimination. What that is, I can't say. It's going to take some thought and discussion amongst us. Yes, this is Geri's site, but we are all members with functioning brains (well, most of us, anyway), and I have always found that another pair of eyes or another mind brought to bear on a project or problem, can often lead to a revelation. I'm sure that Geri would welcome suggestions. Like apps, "there's a thread for that."
9∈ [?]
If you've ever wanted to make a difference but found it hard to believe that one person could... check out the Kiva Team Caedes discussion thread and discover that anything is possible.
+tbob
08/17/11 4:26 AM GMT
Im the only judge of my progress if I dont like what I see I change my direction.
1∈ [?]
"Windows 95 is a 32-bit extention to a 16-bit patch for an 8-bit operating system that was originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1-bit of competition."
.rvdb
08/17/11 6:19 PM GMT
On a C Index 1 to 10 ......I miss C Index about a 8 also miss the aggro and the satisfaction. Huuuuuummmmmm well #$$%&&*()& lets say addictive one of the first things I did when I checked in on the site guess you could compare it to the DOW index works on the same principal can not predict whats going to happen. And I know what some will say get a life those are my own words somewere in the comments above.
1∈ [?]
The reason why the sun sets in the evening is because it wants to see the sunrise in the morning. I rise in the morning because I want to see them both. RvdB
.reddawg151
08/17/11 10:16 PM GMT
You all do know, it's very easy to require that comments are of a certain length-- and we already have a system for comment slike "it sucks"-- you complain, and they get moderated, and if someone does go through writing that a lot, then they get removed from the site.
2∈ [?]
~Bob
.Nikoneer
08/17/11 11:18 PM GMT
In a perfect world, Bob, I would say yes, but somethings and some people always manage to slip through the cracks. Part of this depends on how much "1984"-style supervision our moderators are willing to participate in or, just as important, how much we are willing to have them do. Several years ago I ran afoul of an individual here on Caedes that was (and still is) obviously insane; this part of their character was displayed by an unwarranted and vicious attack. It came as a complete surprise and, at the time, I had no idea I had recourse to this sort of behavior (I didn't know Mimi). In contrast, some of us actually do get to know one another quite well (earlier this month I hosted a fellow Caedesian (from the east coast) and his wife --terrific people--here in my area), but we interact with many people at the Caedes site, from across the world, and there's no way to be certain of how they will react to something that you and I would consider completely innocent, how they might interpret or cooperate with a requirement for submission. What I'm talking about is some method that doesn't require so much supervision or hand-slapping. As I said before, I don't know what that is at the moment, but that's what these threads are for.
2∈ [?]
If you've ever wanted to make a difference but found it hard to believe that one person could... check out the Kiva Team Caedes discussion thread and discover that anything is possible.
+nmsmith
08/18/11 12:25 AM GMT
I've been a member of the site since 2004, so I've been on long enough to see a number of changes over the years. Geri, my hat's off to you - you've weathered a lot of storms in a calm, collected, and professional way. Thank you!

The strength of this site is community. An opportunity to display your work, receive both critiques and praise (often both in the same breath), is priceless. Because of that, my skills have grown over the years in both photography and computer-based art. And along the way, I've made many wonderful friends - some I've even met in person.

I appreciate that the site is moderated, and that I feel safe recommending it to children.

Personally, I will not miss the voting booth or the c-index. I have enjoyed the community aspect much more. The numbers never really meant anything to me. As a member of the DeviantArt community as well, I post my images to both. In almost every case, the reception any image I post varies widely between the two sites. So I learned early on to truly appreciate the comments people made on any of my images: They are the true value of the site - again, community, the real strength of Caedes.

I think it's important in our community here to not be afraid to make constructive critiques. We learn as parents not to label our children - "stupid" "smart" etc. That's very damaging to relationships. Rather, we teach them by talking about, praising, or giving critiques on specific behaviors. I feel critiquing art should be the same - i.e. - "I've found that you can get a more interesting visual experience by avoiding even divisions of space - or by using the rule of thirds."

We shouldn't be afraid to offer constructive critiques - because by thinking about and considering them carefully, we learn and grow. We shouldn't be afraid to offer praise when we feel it's deserved - "That beautiful combination of colors makes me want to look at your photo all day!"

As artists - or potential artists like myself - we need to be a little thick-skinned and not take offense at critiques. I've found that in a room full of 50 people - you'll get fifty different opinions about something. In the end, you have to go with your gut feeling - you're the artist - you get the final decision.

Although I don't have time to regularly comment - my life has grown too busy with other important things - I do read every comment made on my images, and try to comment on others as often as I can.

I've been a little disheartened by many of the discussions over the past year (call them what you will - flames, name calling, whatever) and have thought more than once, "Maybe it's time to pull out." I'm reluctant to make that jump, however, because of the many good friends I'd have to leave behind.

Perhaps pulling the voting booth and the c-index scores will help us all to be less competitive, and more of a supportive community.

Over the years, I've had the opportunity to watch some budding young Caedes artists bloom into professionals whose work would grace any major publication. What a delight to have played even a small role in encouraging and helping them along!

As always, I think the world of you - I recommend Caedes.net to several hundred people each year. I am Director of a College of Education resource center, and a NASA Educator Resource Center. The 76 computers in my labs all have wonderful rotating displays of your photos and artwork. Over a hundred thousand people see them each year, and many ask where I get such beautiful images. I tell them, "My friends at Caedes.net post them. Please go have a look, and join the community if you desire."

My very best wishes to you all - and may your days be wonderful and filled with wonder!

Nathan Smith
37∈ [?]
+purmusic
08/18/11 5:49 PM GMT
(*ponders switching his entry out in the "Tolkien-esque" contest and replacing it with that of ... Nathan, as Caedes.net's embodiment of **Gandalf*)


Not enough time to grow a beard, here..

(*hands Nathan a fake beard and some glue..*)



(** "Gandalf's name is occasionally used allusively to indicate a wise mentor or wizard-like advisor. For over 2,000 years, Gandalf worked most faithfully against the rising powers of evil in Middle-earth.")
1∈ [?]
::laurengary
08/18/11 6:27 PM GMT
Thanks Nathan for your wonderful words that were so needed here...certainly by me.
0∈ [?]
I've got amnesia & deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before ! ... That was Zen, but this is Tao !!! ...CLICK TO SAVE LIVES !
.koca
08/18/11 7:31 PM GMT
I liked c-index and voting, but I didn't understand how was it possible that there was such a big difference between the votes and the c-index. Are those "c-indexers" so smart or smarter than all the others? You get 40-50 votes and 10 c-index. Ridiculous, don't you think?
And about the comments, dull, repeating... Don't forget that we are not all Americans or English, very often we have language problems to express ourselves. So, be a bit more tolerant, English is not our language. But, we are trying. Thanks.






3∈ [?]
.FlimBB
08/18/11 7:45 PM GMT
.koca: "So, be a bit more tolerant, English is not our language. But, we are trying."

It's a good thing we have art, the universal language, to speak for us.
4∈ [?]
I thought I had all the answers, but it turns out I don't even know the questions. -Stephen Prothero (paraphrased)
+nmsmith
08/19/11 12:59 AM GMT
English:
Hi Milka! With tools like Google Translate, perhaps we can understand each other better - you can post in your language, and I can have the tool translate it for me. Have a wonderful day, my friend.

A test of Google translate into Macedonian:
Здраво Милка! Со алатки како Google Translate, можеби можеме да се разбереме подобро - можете да објавувате на вашиот јазик, и можам да имаат алатка го преведе за мене. Имаат прекрасен ден, мојот пријател.
0∈ [?]
.pauldb
08/21/11 9:46 PM GMT
I see the reasons why the c-index was removed. However, I have a feeling that very few of my pictures will get comments now. When I saw a picture in the voting booth that I was struck by, I would comment on it. There are a lot of good photos on here that receive little recognition simply because the photographers don't have a lot of friends who make a comment as soon as a picture is posted. The voting booth was often the only way to get a picture noticed, and that is now gone. Many good photos will have to wait until they end up in the "Lonely Images" gallery before they are commented on.
2∈ [?]
I can see how it might be possible for a man to look down upon earth and be an atheist, but I cannot conceive how he could look up into the heavens and say there is no God. - Abraham Lincoln
.J_272004
08/21/11 9:54 PM GMT
I agree with you there Paul.. there are going to be a lot of images in the "Lonely Images" gallery
0∈ [?]
MY GALLERY ........... "You are not alive unless you know you are living." Amadeo Modigliani
::casechaser
08/21/11 10:20 PM GMT
To Paul and Jacqueline, I do not know if this will work for you but it does for me.

I will look at the the daily new posts from the beginning, on page one, back to my last upload. I do this pretty regularly. I stop on pictures that catch my eye and will comment on them and/or fav them, depending on how they further motivate me as I see them in full size.

By the way, I too miss the VB. Not so much as a place where my pictures would be exposed to the masses, but rather as a place, where that particular group in the masses could tell me what they thought of what I posted via their votes.
1∈ [?]
+tbob
08/22/11 3:09 AM GMT
I would rather have my pic in a group of many and get one comment then in a group of few and get many.Atleast I would know that the one person that looked liked or disliked what they saw not that they did it for a cookie.
0∈ [?]
"Windows 95 is a 32-bit extention to a 16-bit patch for an 8-bit operating system that was originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1-bit of competition."
::wheedance
08/25/11 2:44 PM GMT
I won't miss it. I must confess that while I enjoyed getting a high score, I couldn't help but let the low scores get me down and it discouraged me from posting more. I agree about getting back to the purpose of the site!
6∈ [?]
All of earth is crammed with heaven And every bush aflame with God But only those who see take off their shoes. - Elizabeth Barrett Browning<p> mygallery
::WENPEDER
08/27/11 4:54 AM GMT
Hmmmmmmm...Interesting. I've been busy away from the net for the past couple of months and am trying to get caught up here. I also agree with Geri's intent to try to get back to the purpose of the website. I know the C-index has been a point of dispute and at times contention since I began posting here several years ago - - Unfortunately, it's not easy to develop a voting system for a site such as this that reliably provides a valid index of image quality, for reasons that have been discussed countless times. Nonetheless, I think the IDEA of a C-Index score as a rough gauge of image quality was something many of us attended to.

I wonder if, rather than a "voting booth," we might have a "comment booth" .... Just a thought. I agree with many of Nathan's comments about the important "community" aspects of this forum. Wen

0∈ [?]
::auroraobers
08/27/11 7:48 AM GMT
I just want to thank Geri for hosting this website. I've been a member for many years now. I don't post often, but I always check in almost everyday. I enjoying seeing the sites from around the world. I guess I've been oblivious to all the undercurrent that apparently has been taking place. I've had only positive experiences with my friends on Caedes. Thank you, Geri. I look forward to the day I have more time to spend on Caedes. I really love the site.
1∈ [?]
.GBH2008
08/27/11 8:42 AM GMT
What is the purpose of this website? I signed up on the site because there were many images that were great, now it seems like more people just put up whatever they take a snap shot of. I'm not saying that my images are anything great but the c index helped me to know how I was doing. Photography is art and is rated by the judgement of others, what appeals to others eyes. At times I might have thought why some of mine where rated high or low but it gave me a better idea of what people were looking for in a image. I'm just saying that the c index was a good idea to see how others saw your image. I have also felt the disappointment of a low rating when I thought people might like my image better than they did, so maybe there should be a comment box that goes along with the c index so whoever votes can say why they rated the image the way they did. Art is judged by others to know the quality presented.
6∈ [?]
+purmusic
08/27/11 11:24 AM GMT
Two very fine images, Luke, from that of your two recent postings:

"Emerald Water"

"Lamborghini Murcielago"


Not that you came to this discussion for some free publicity.


However, as an awkward segue of sorts.. it is nice to see some members that have not typically participated in the site discussions, coming forward and sharing their thoughts.

And on the latter notes of your post above, I am curious to see what is next for the site here.

Perhaps, a retooling of the Voting Booth?

Perhaps, something (whatever that something may be, or turn out to be) incorporating some of the other suggestions made on past discussions, concerning alternative ways of 'judging' imagery for the site by the membership?


In the infamous words from a bygone era of serial TV ... 'stay tuned next week.. same spider-channel, same spider-time..'.
0∈ [?]
.Con_
08/27/11 2:06 PM GMT
Ah...!  I Love Nathan's book or perhaps I should say the ideas expressed therein! :o)
0∈ [?]
MGBWYA
.SDLewis
08/29/11 2:00 AM GMT
Ok I was gone for awhile with my wifes hip surgery and I come back and this. What a shame, I didn't realize there was such a problem but I will conform to the change and go by favs and downloads as a gage. I still look forward to seeing the great work that comes forth on this site and sharing mine.
0∈ [?]
.J_E_F
08/30/11 12:38 AM GMT
Good riddance to the VB.

A worthy idea that quixotically applied math to art.

1∈ [?]
¶:ļ)
.Jay_Underwood
09/04/11 2:17 AM GMT
I personally thin kothat sucks.. I just got on here to post one of my better shots in hopes to have a cecient score from the c-index. I do however think it was offten a matter of taste over quality or difficulty on ones picture that got the votes. Ive seen many close ups of flowers and landscape shots with the higher votes. So in that sense I guess the cidex wasnt very accuarte and Im sure random people would just score low for the sake of scoring low. I always kept my votes inbetween 5 and 10, never went lower because I wanted to encourage people, not slam them down to make myself feel better. I hope the cidex comes back someday.
4∈ [?]
Iím having amnesia and deja vu at the same time - I think Iíve forgotten this before.
.FlimBB
09/04/11 12:13 AM GMT
"Art is in the eye of the beholder"
The VB was a good reflection of this timely saying, vb flaming aside of course. I readily admit these days that I was a bit snobbish as a young musician. Always hailing the technically superior over the average players. My handle here, FlimBB comes from the studio band Flim & The BBs and it always amazed me how very few people knew this exceptional assembly of excelled musicians yet they were selected for the first all-digital recordings. But everyone likes what they like and technical does not weigh in if one does not know technical. So I asked myself why. Because art is in the eye of the beholder. I still think the vb reflected that very well. For technical feedback of our art here on Caedes, we must and should rely on our comments and community PM. Just a last thought on this subject.
0∈ [?]
Emptiness is not nothingness. It is simply the opposite of full of it.
::Paul_Gerritsen
09/05/11 9:43 PM GMT
Well I must admit that had not noticed the s(c)ores were gone until today....
Then I read all the above comments and it made me wonder again why we all contribute to this side?
It is because:
A - we are have a continuous contest going on?
B - we are unable to judge our own work so
we seek confirmation of others?
C - we just want to tell the stories of our life?
D - we pretend we are artists (and not snap
shooters)
E - we want to get better in what we do?
F - we just want to have friends in this community.
G - we like to comment on others?
H - we like being anonymous here?
I - we just want to show and seen how beautiful
this world is?
J - we found a hobby that is very relaxing after
a hard days work.
K - we like meeting our fellow photographers
in real life!
L - we find people sharing the same interest in
photography or computer art.
M - it is just a way to get in contact with others.
N - we like to be part of "a community"
O - we enjoy the wise comments of others
P - we want to get a technical tips and tutorials
how to operator the camera?
Q - we want to see who has got the best camera?
R - we want to show of, show others what we have
seen and traveled?
S - we want to get famous!
T - we want to be remembered, not forgotten.
U - we want to be accepted.
V - we want to be respected.
W - we want friends
X - we need to publish, for we are artist
Y - we can publish anything, we are free!
Z - we are not judged! It is NOT work.

---------- WE ARE FREE --------

So, what is your need from this side?
I don't need C indexes, I HATE them.
I want to have a public and hope someone likes what I post and that we can discus about it when we feel like it. But don't need to, WE ARE FREE!

And if you need an honest comment on your photograph, what are you looking for then?
What do you expect from a sucker like me?

What I like most about this side it the guessing who factor. Most photograph carry the signature of its owner and I like being able to judge who the artist is. I like to see how someones style evolves, how someones "character" gets reflected in his or her work.
I could never jury someones character with a C number. Could you?

So, that said, I am happy the C index goes!
You are more that a number to me!
26∈ [?]
If you can't find the words, you may as well shoot it...
.tiganitos
08/11/12 3:37 PM GMT
Put c-index back on.
0∈ [?]
ninja

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